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Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 5:11 UTC (Fri) by mikemol (guest, #83507)
In reply to: Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired) by raven667
Parent article: Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

He should go read the other comments that talk about people gaming the system, then.

Networks are very, very complex beasts on their own. Throw in millions of people's individually unique usage patterns, and the behavior of that complex system becomes an impossible thing to precisely describe.

As a consequence, network operators deal in abstractions where such are useful. Again, though, the more you try to take those abstractions and make them more precise, the more you try to reach an impossible degree of complexity, and the more customers spend as they confuse "wants" for "needs".

If I wanted to get a 10GbE network connection to my home, I could. It'd cost me a pretty penny in installation costs, but it's doable; I'd have to pay someone to either bury or hang single-mode fiber between me and an L3 center about three miles away on the other side of downtown. And then I'd have to pay to have (and keep) it lit. And then I'd have to pay for IP addresses. And transit. And support. Every single one of those things you mention.

There's a reason it's expensive, and there's a reason you don't see those kind of connections land on every home.

Instead, you have organizations like Comcast, RoadRunner and AT&T who move to the other extreme and abstract things as broadly as possible. As a consequence, they can provide oodles of bandwith *cheap*. There are a ton of guarantees you don't get, and services you're not promised, but you get a service that's "good enough" for the vast majority of people (much as we might prefer people to move out of centralized services...), and you get the option to pay for a higher tier that gets you preferred status on the network (no complaints about bandwidth consumption, and you even get OB port 25 unblocked), red carpet treatment in support (call drop? they call me back.), and they're *happy* to send out a tech to swap out a modem, tune attenuation or replace a line if you're not getting 24/7 connectivity.

Now, let's say the traditional last-mile providers started offering these things a la cart. Most people would *hate* it; people want to have choice in principle, but when faced with it they either buy it all, cheap out and don't buy what they need, or agonize under information overload. (Your average user isn't going to know what $some_feature is, and will blame the ISP when they face problems owing to their own ignorance. I expect this is why Comcast _only_ provides on-link (not routed) IPv4 subnets.)

And if last-mile providers did offer a la cart services, there would be general complaints about how the evil ISPs are "nickle-and-diming" their customers.

As for bandwidth caps and other things that are "ripe" for abuse. That's theory. Practice varies. Comcast isn't abusing it...at least not in a way that's visible around here. Yes, they were seriously nasty back in the bad old days of DPI and anti-torrenting behavior, but every Comcast tech I've interacted with, from netops on down to the contractor testing my home connection, is chiefly interested in building the best network they can.

Individuals, communities and corporations _always_ work around the limitations set forth by current networks, if they're allowed to. Users got bittorrent to deal with asynchronous network connections. Companies like Akami and Limelight seek to place their own distribution-point equipment within the boundaries of major networks, to reduce network-boundary congestion. And the owners of those networks rightly charge them for the privilege, infra and support costs that go with those arrangements.

"Net Neutrality" is an attempt at implementing a ham-handed, political solution to what is ultimately a technical and market problem. To put in place a net neutrality mandate would be to lock the shape of the network into the current status quo...unless you put in enough caveats and flexibility that it's meaningless and just another "we have to run this by a political committee before we can implement it." And that's not a good place to be.

The Internet is not mature, and I should hope it never ceases to be the hotbed of innovation and creativity it's been over the last thirty years. But a Net Neutrality mandate would be the biggest stifler of creativity it's ever seen.


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Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 6:29 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (6 responses)

> "Net Neutrality" is an attempt at implementing a ham-handed, political solution to what is ultimately a technical and market problem.

that depends on how you define "Net Neutrality"

If you define it, as some people here have, as having no rules on what can be done with a connection, then you are correct.

However, if you go back and look at the problem that "Net Neutrality" was started to oppose, it's not a political solution to a technical problem, it's a political restraint on an unfair money grab on the part of some large ISPs.

If I pay my ISP for my connection, and you pay your ISP for your connection, why should I have to pay your ISP (or why should you have to pay my ISP) for the privilage of sending traffic between us?

That is what some ISPs were advocating should be the case. This is what the term "Network Neutrality" meant before people started distorting it.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 13:38 UTC (Fri) by mikemol (guest, #83507) [Link] (5 responses)

> However, if you go back and look at the problem that "Net Neutrality" was started to oppose, it's not a political solution to a technical problem, it's a political restraint on an unfair money grab on the part of some large ISPs.

*This* is exactly what I was referring to when I was talking about a ham-handed, political solution to what is ultimately a technical and market problem.

> If I pay my ISP for my connection, and you pay your ISP for your connection, why should I have to pay your ISP (or why should you have to pay my ISP) for the privilage of sending traffic between us?

Because the ISP owns the network, and if you're pushing enough traffic to visibly help saturate 10Gb peering links, you're effectively DoS'ing that ISP's connection on the other side of that network. Why *shouldn't* that ISP require you to help upgrade the connectivity path? The money has to come from somewhere. This is also why CDNs seek to put their own hardware on the near side of these links; it's cheaper to pay someone to host a rack than to help pay to trench new fiber between Chicago and Denver.

And if you're not saturating peering links, you really aren't someone anyone cares about for these issues, and you're applying small-scale-operator perspectives to large-scale-operator problems.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 18:44 UTC (Fri) by filteredperception (guest, #5692) [Link] (1 responses)

disclosure: complainant here
"
if you're pushing enough traffic to visibly help saturate 10Gb peering links, you're effectively DoS'ing that ISP's connection on the other side of that network. Why *shouldn't* that ISP require you to help upgrade the connectivity path?
"

My response to this kind of logic flows to the whole "unlimited" marketing terms having been some orwellianly stupid level of socially acceptable fraudulent advertising for the last decade. Hopefully, and I think this may be true, enough people are no longer completely mystified by what the internet is or how it basically works. As such, let's stop lying to everyone. Deal? (paraphrased: there is a limit, and I want to know it, to know how excited I really should be by the technology)

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 19:20 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

This all kind of sounds like the billing model for phone service, with residential, business, toll-free, and premium-rate services where one of the parties is billed on a per-connection, per-application basis, and where the telecom provider is a middleman in all business transactions using the network. This sounds like a reintroduction of toll-free billing where the recipient of the connection is billed per-connection and the initiator of the connection is just billed a monthly subscription rate.

What's old is new again 8-)

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 19:15 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

> if you're pushing enough traffic to visibly help saturate 10Gb peering links, you're effectively DoS'ing that ISP's

With traffic that the customer requested. Isn't it in the best interest of the ISP to provision enough resource to cover their customers requests, and charge appropriately? The data is not being pushed, it is being pulled.

> CDNs seek to put their own hardware on the near side of these links; it's cheaper

Indeed. It's cheaper for everyone involved, but if those CDNs carry competing data that the ISP also sells, such as video, then the ISPs have shown willingness to deny access and force the competing CDNs traffic through a slower, congested and more expensive path so as to be able to demonstrate better service with their in-house offering. This was the essence of the fight between Netflix and Comcast, Comcast refused to allow Netflix to install caches, at Netflix's own expense, that would improve performance for Comcast users and reduce overall network load for Comcast because that would compete with their CableTV and VOD offerings.

Is that the innovative network of the future you want?

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 4, 2013 22:59 UTC (Sun) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

> if you're pushing enough traffic to visibly help saturate 10Gb peering links, you're effectively DoS'ing that ISP's connection on the other side of that network. Why *shouldn't* that ISP require you to help upgrade the connectivity path?

remember, it's the ISP's customers who decide they want the data, not the website.

If I'm running a website, why should I have to track where people are connecting to me are from? I'm ALREADY paying for bandwith with my ISP.

let's flip this around a bit. If you think the problem is that Google is pushing too much data to Comcast customers, imagine the outrage that you would hear if Google were to announce that they were going to throttle connections to Comcast, giving Comcast customers worse service unless Comcast agrees to pay Google for the privilege.

After all, it's the Comcast customers who are creating the demand on the Google servers, causing Google to have to spend money on hardware and Internet connections.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 5, 2013 0:00 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> If I'm running a website, why should I have to track where people are connecting to me are from? I'm ALREADY paying for bandwith with my ISP.
For consumer connections? Hardly.

Business connections are there for good reasons. And "maximum profit by tiering services" is not the only one.


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