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Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 30, 2013 21:22 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
In reply to: Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired) by rahvin
Parent article: Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Eggsackerly.

I as a consumer pay for the pipe at my end. Google pays for the pipe at their end.

It's not anybody's interest *what* goes down my pipe - and if some body pokes their nose in, that's the equivalent of reading my mail ... but they have to do that if they don't believe in network neutrality!

If my ISP wants to restrict the VOLUME of traffic, that's their prerogative (within limits) but they shouldn't be telling me what I can do with the bandwidth I've paid for.

Cheers,
Wol


to post comments

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 30, 2013 21:55 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (37 responses)

Well, you have not (most probably) paid for a business-class pipe. Also Google's network infrastructure might not be designed to handle large volume of outgoing network traffic. And that's not considering abuse calls for servers hosting pirated/illicit material.

As someone who worked for an ISP, I can say that it's totally fair to limit servers on consumer-grade connection.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 30, 2013 22:42 UTC (Tue) by quartz (guest, #37351) [Link] (25 responses)

How can that not be handled by limiting the volume instead of introspecting on the subject of your communication as the GP suggested?

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 30, 2013 22:47 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (24 responses)

Limiting traffic is just one part. It does nothing for abuse complaints, which are much worse.

Usually ISPs simply don't care what you do locally. The "no servers" clause is here so if they receive an abuse complaint they simply shut your incoming connection.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 30, 2013 23:44 UTC (Tue) by rqosa (subscriber, #24136) [Link] (14 responses)

> The "no servers" clause is here so if they receive an abuse complaint they simply shut your incoming connection.

Why is is necessary for them to have a "no servers" clause in order to shut your incoming connection in the event of an abuse complaint? That seems like a totally separate issue to me.

The big problem with a "no servers" clause is that any listening port is a server. That means that a SIP VoIP program is a server, a Jabber client with file-transfer enabled is a server, a private SSH server is a server, etc. I have used and/or currently use all three of those on a regular basis, and as far as I'm concerned there is no justification for banning residential Internet users from running applications like these.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 30, 2013 23:50 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (13 responses)

>Why is is necessary for them to have a "no servers" clause in order to shut your incoming connection in the event of an abuse complaint? That seems like a totally separate issue to me.
Because otherwise you might start disputing it. And that requires a lot of attention of support staff. That costs money, much easier to simply forbid it.

There's also a correlation between the number of support calls and people running servers.

>The big problem with a "no servers" clause is that any listening port is a server.
Again, nobody cares about transient servers like hosted games or VoIP endpoints. Google even says that in their policy. As long as your services do not consume epic amounts of bandwidth or generate complaints - ISPs simply don't care.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 0:21 UTC (Wed) by rqosa (subscriber, #24136) [Link] (12 responses)

> As long as your services do not consume epic amounts of bandwidth or generate complaints - ISPs simply don't care.

Then that should be explicitly written in the ISP's terms of service, and that is not the case for Google according to the article: "Google’s legally binding Terms of Service outlaw Google Fiber customers from […] SSHing into a home computer from work to retrieve files [or] running a Minecraft server for friends to share".

And it's never a good thing to have rules that are widely violated in practice, because that leads to selective enforcement.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 0:23 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (11 responses)

It's written in Google Fiber TOS:

>Our Terms of Service prohibit running a server. However, use of applications such as multi-player gaming, video-conferencing, home security and others which may include server capabilities but are being used for legal and non-commercial purposes are acceptable and encouraged.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 0:37 UTC (Wed) by rqosa (subscriber, #24136) [Link]

Well, if that's so, then maybe the Wired article is wrong about the "game server" case at least.

That policy is still ambiguous at best about the "home SSH server" case, though — and Google has an economic interest in discouraging decentralized alternatives (e.g. SSH, rsync, ownCloud, etc.) to their hosted services such as Google Drive&heliip;

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 1:06 UTC (Wed) by magila (guest, #49627) [Link]

The text you've quoted is not in the TOS, it's from the Google Fiber FAQ which is of course not part of the legal agreement users accept. The language in the TOS states (by reference to a support article):

>Unless you have a written agreement with Google Fiber permitting you do so, you should not host any type of server using your Google Fiber connection...

Obviously this leaves the TOS and the FAQ in conflict. If I were a Google Fiber customer I know I'd like to see the TOS clarified before I trusted what the FAQ says.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 1:22 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (8 responses)

Except (as others have pointed out) that's the FAQ, not the ToS. The former is not legally binding, the latter is, and it's what completely bans servers of any sort.

But to me, even if the FAQ was legally binding, it still references "legal and non-commercial purposes"

Something as simple as hosting a blog (even with externally-served ads) is considered commercial purposes. So is hosting a portfolio site for your artwork. So is backing up your office stuff to a "server" at home. So is hosting a web page with a "donate money via paypal" link on it.

Reasonable restrictions (IMO) would be along the lines of "don't create an wireless ISP using your goggle fiber connection", but there's a huge gulf between that and "any commercial purpose"

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 2:19 UTC (Wed) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link]

I would be concerned as well if there was a history of the kind of abuse you are talking about. Even the most evil of incumbent ISPs (ATT) has not done what you suspect Google of attempting. Maybe the publicity will get the statement in the FAQ added to the TOS, but the reason these clauses likely exist is the litigious society we have in the US. They need strong affirmative clauses that have no leeway so they can't be challenged in court later.

The simple answer is that if you don't like the terms don't subscribe to Google or convince them to offer a separate class of account that allows servers. I don't personally expect them to ever do so because one of the revenue sources on these connections is data mining the household that subscribes, if the connection is used for legitimate server services that data mining will be worthless. To me at least the massive privacy violation of Google being the ISP is far worse that banning servers.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 11:58 UTC (Wed) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (2 responses)

Something as simple as hosting a blog (even with externally-served ads) is considered commercial purposes.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Even simple blog can lead to complains.

So is hosting a portfolio site for your artwork.

That's basically a landmine.

So is backing up your office stuff to a "server" at home.

That one is probably fine.

So is hosting a web page with a "donate money via paypal" link on it.

Definitely a problem.

As was already explained above they are not trying to save bandwidth (they have tons of bandwidth). They want to avoid complains. As long as your service is not falling in category which can lead to complains to ISP - it's not server as far as Google is concerned.

That's why there will never be a clarification in TOS: what is "server" and what is not "server" lawmakers of your jurisdiction are deciding, not Google.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 13:37 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

>As was already explained above they are not trying to save bandwidth (they have tons of bandwidth). They want to avoid complains. As long as your service is not falling in category which can lead to complains to ISP - it's not server as far as Google is concerned.

That may be their intention, but it's certainly not what is written. :)

Unfortunately Google doesn't have any concrete plans for a "business-class" offering, so if you want (or need) to run a server of any sort, Google Fiber is simply not an option. Nobody is going to risk their business/livelihood by relying on their ISP to not enforce the ToS.

...I'm currently paying Comcast for a "business" connection. They charge me about double their residential rate, but it doesn't cost *them* any more to provide the basic pipe. They do bundle some value-add stuff (five email accounts instead of one, hosted on exchange, and a free antivirus license, big whoop) and they have a much better support staffing ratio.

But at the end of the day, I'm paying them double so I can have an unfiltered static IP.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 15:23 UTC (Wed) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

The fact that the ISP pays for anti-virus software to give away to subscribers should be evidence that their real concern is as stated by khim, they want to reduce complaints about traffic from their subscribers.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 21:29 UTC (Wed) by lordsutch (guest, #53) [Link] (1 responses)

The FAQ may not be legally binding, but if there is a legal dispute the FAQ can certainly be introduced into evidence in your defense if Google (or any other ISP similarly situated) were to decide to enforce the TOS provision in a way that was contrary to the FAQ. Not to mention that the FTC and state regulators would have a cause of action against Google (or any other ISP) for false advertising in that event.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 23:49 UTC (Wed) by xtifr (guest, #143) [Link]

Indeed, anyone who has spent more than a few minutes at Groklaw should be familiar with the terms "estoppel" and "laches". If Google's FAQ wouldn't constitute a case of promissory estoppel, then I don't know what would.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 18:33 UTC (Fri) by filteredperception (guest, #5692) [Link] (1 responses)

+1 (from the complainant in the case)

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 18:47 UTC (Fri) by filteredperception (guest, #5692) [Link]

and just because threading is a bit hard to see, my +1 goes to pizza's comment that I replied to.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 1:18 UTC (Wed) by ras (subscriber, #33059) [Link] (6 responses)

Well, you have not (most probably) paid for a business-class pipe. Also Google's network infrastructure might not be designed to handle large volume of outgoing network traffic. And that's not considering abuse calls for servers hosting pirated/illicit material.

If that is the issue, put a limit on outgoing traffic. Not all outgoing traffic is generated by servers (DropBox being a classic case) and not all servers generate a lot of going traffic (eg, ssh).

Usually ISPs simply don't care what you do locally. The "no servers" clause is here so if they receive an abuse complaint they simply shut your incoming connection.

If that is a problem, say in your TOS that if your connection generates lots of valid abuse complaints they reserve the right to shut it down. Again, not all abuse complains are generated by servers, and not all servers generate abuse complaints.

There two issues here. The word "server" is almost meaningless. What is the server in a P2P network? Is something listening for HTTP connections on port 80 on your phone a server, or just an alternate means of transferring data to and from it? The second issue is caused by this first one. Net neutrality is really about the consumer getting what they were sold. Typically an ISP does not mention throttling P2P, slowing YouTube or in their agreements, so they should not do it. The inherent ambiguity in the word "server" means they ban can traffic that overloads their network by calling the software that runs at the customer end a server, without ever mentioning in their sales agreements that they are placing a limit on uploads. In my mind, that violates net neutrality.

To be fair to Google they just probably just did what everybody else does with these agreements - they just looked at existing ones and took what looked good. They have done it before. Regardless, I find the sloppy language annoying.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 2:06 UTC (Wed) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (5 responses)

Google is doing what all the other ISPs do, they are saying everything is not acceptable and then likely only enforcing that provision when it causes problems for other customers (or support). As you and several other posters have pointed out this is an area where you really can't say this is allowed and that isn't as it's fairly easy to turn things around and demand they abide even though you are violating the intent. It's far to easy to game specific terms.

Servers (as in real servers like web, email etc, not SSH, game or such) cause support issues, they get IP blocks into the RBL they can cause SPAM and all sorts of problems that cost ISPs serious support money. This is why business class service costs more, to handle the support issues of customers running servers that consume bandwidth, cause security issues and generate support tickets.

I've never seen an ISP filter or monitor traffic in any way other than simple measures like port blocks on 25 and 80 on residential connections , except where they are getting support complaints (though Comcast did use DPI to cut off torrent traffic and was rightly taken to the shed for it). People running low volume stuff are likely to fly under the radar up until they get slashdot'd and shut down their entire neighborhoods connection at which point their accounts will likely be terminated. Google and every other ISP on the planet uses these draconian terms so they can easily shut down customers that cause problems. It reduces support costs and helps keep the service cost down. It's not the best method to do it, but I'd lay money on them not bothering a soul that isn't screwing up others service.

There are two things you have to keep in mind, first is that Google is offering free lifetime connections (at 5mbit) for a $300 install fee. Second at the price they are offering gigabit they aren't counting on any support costs.

Finally network neutrality doesn't have anything to do with customers and them "getting what they were sold". It's always been about messing up the routing and throughput deliberately then charging extra to undo it. The potential for abuse in doing so is extreme, the potential abuse of the ISPs requiring separate accounts for business and personal use is non existent.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 2:36 UTC (Wed) by rqosa (subscriber, #24136) [Link] (4 responses)

> Servers (as in real servers like web, email etc, not SSH, game or such) cause support issues

That's a false distiction between "real" vs. non-"real" servers — for example, I've occasionally run a private Apache instance (with authentication enabled) on residential DSL in order to share things (e.g. digital camera photos/videos) with Windows-using friends/relatives without having to have them install an SSH client. It makes no sense to prohibit using HTTP for this but allow SSH for the same purposes.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 7:27 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (3 responses)

My home system runs postfix. It hosts a full-blown server for household internal use. But I couldn't get it to upload mail to my mail provider so all my email clients need to be configured to do that themselves.

So it looks like I would be in breach of Google's TOS, yet my server is incapable of originating network traffic ...

Cheers,
Wol

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 17:43 UTC (Wed) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (2 responses)

Just like I said previously, for any scenario of unacceptable (from the point of view of increasing support costs) that makes sense you can come up with a counter example that doesn't meet their(perceived) goal that is doing exactly the same thing. This is why it's impossible for them to come up with a list of acceptable/unacceptable and they are forced into the situation of just out right banning everything and then only targeting users that cause the problems.

There is simply no way to create a list of things that will cause problems because the very same activity done in a different way wouldn't cause problems. You could end up with a 1000 page document that still doesn't cover every scenario and no one would read it anyway.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 18:41 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> This is why it's impossible for them to come up with a list of acceptable/unacceptable and they are forced into the situation of just out right banning everything and then only targeting users that cause the problems.

In other words, by default, a majority of their users will be technically in violation of the ToS the moment their connection is lit up.

If Google wants to reserve the right to ban "bad" stuff then they should just out and say that, including some non-exclusive examples, or at least formally carve out exceptions for stuff that everyone and their grandmother could legitimately have running.

For example:

> you should not host any type of server using your Google Fiber connection, use your Google Fiber account to provide a large number of people with Internet access, or use your Google Fiber account to provide commercial services to third parties.

could become:

> Google Fibre reserves the right to deny you service or request a change of terms if your use of the network places excessive demands on it or significantly degrades our ability to provide a consistent level of service to other users, if you use your Google Fiber account to provide a large number of people with Internet access, or if you use your Google Fiber account to provide commercial services to third parties.

And presto, my objections go away, because they are describing unacceptable behavior in terms of its effect, rather than a blanket ban on stuff they intend to ignore anyway.

(Thanks to 'kawa' over at the verge for that proposed text -- http://www.theverge.com/users/kawa)

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 19:04 UTC (Wed) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link]

I didn't argue the language couldn't be cleaned up, just that you can't be specific about any one thing because there is a counter example of the exact same use not causing the same problems. I don't really like the blanket statements and lack of enforcement, but they aren't government, they are allowed to selectively enforce whatever rule they want to create.

My argument has been and remains the abuse of the term "network neutrality" to include such silly things as peering arrangements between Tier 1/2 providers and a provider having tiered services for commercial/residential uses.

My views fall very in line with the article link I posted at the bottom in fact. In other words, Google has a lot of room for improvement but this particular case isn't network neutrality and people need to stop calling every little thing they don't like network neutrality.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 14:27 UTC (Wed) by krake (guest, #55996) [Link] (1 responses)

"Limiting traffic is just one part. It does nothing for abuse complaints, which are much worse."

Sure, but that is because there is no network neutrality.

In the case of the ISP as a neutral third party, any such complaints would go to the hoster of the service.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Jul 31, 2013 14:51 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Net neutrality has NOTHING to do with the receiver of the abuse complaints. And by ARIN rules it's the owner of the netblock, i.e. the ISP.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 1, 2013 2:22 UTC (Thu) by russell (guest, #10458) [Link] (10 responses)

There should not be such a thing as business-class. That's rubbish. The pipe should be sold according to uptime, support, and volume. Not what the data is.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 0:18 UTC (Fri) by mikemol (guest, #83507) [Link] (9 responses)

"Business class" service exists to allow lesser-tiered services that offer lower prices for optimizable use cases.

If you're advocating that there not be a distinction in services, and that all classes be structured as business class is, you're advocating that there not be *residential-class* services. Say goodbye to the discounts residential subscribers enjoy; resources will necessarily be spread thinner.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 3:48 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (8 responses)

That's now how I read russell's comment. The problem is not tiered service with different price points, that's generally acceptable to everyone, it's how those tiers are defined and enforced. Instead of defining tiers based on the _contents_ of the traffic or the intent of the subscriber, as is done when banning "servers", define the tiers based on bandwidth, latency, public IPs, support, uptime, etc. Bandwidth caps may be another technique but they are ripe for abuse by providers which also offer high-bandwidth video services, unless using the providers own video service also counted against the cap.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 5:11 UTC (Fri) by mikemol (guest, #83507) [Link] (7 responses)

He should go read the other comments that talk about people gaming the system, then.

Networks are very, very complex beasts on their own. Throw in millions of people's individually unique usage patterns, and the behavior of that complex system becomes an impossible thing to precisely describe.

As a consequence, network operators deal in abstractions where such are useful. Again, though, the more you try to take those abstractions and make them more precise, the more you try to reach an impossible degree of complexity, and the more customers spend as they confuse "wants" for "needs".

If I wanted to get a 10GbE network connection to my home, I could. It'd cost me a pretty penny in installation costs, but it's doable; I'd have to pay someone to either bury or hang single-mode fiber between me and an L3 center about three miles away on the other side of downtown. And then I'd have to pay to have (and keep) it lit. And then I'd have to pay for IP addresses. And transit. And support. Every single one of those things you mention.

There's a reason it's expensive, and there's a reason you don't see those kind of connections land on every home.

Instead, you have organizations like Comcast, RoadRunner and AT&T who move to the other extreme and abstract things as broadly as possible. As a consequence, they can provide oodles of bandwith *cheap*. There are a ton of guarantees you don't get, and services you're not promised, but you get a service that's "good enough" for the vast majority of people (much as we might prefer people to move out of centralized services...), and you get the option to pay for a higher tier that gets you preferred status on the network (no complaints about bandwidth consumption, and you even get OB port 25 unblocked), red carpet treatment in support (call drop? they call me back.), and they're *happy* to send out a tech to swap out a modem, tune attenuation or replace a line if you're not getting 24/7 connectivity.

Now, let's say the traditional last-mile providers started offering these things a la cart. Most people would *hate* it; people want to have choice in principle, but when faced with it they either buy it all, cheap out and don't buy what they need, or agonize under information overload. (Your average user isn't going to know what $some_feature is, and will blame the ISP when they face problems owing to their own ignorance. I expect this is why Comcast _only_ provides on-link (not routed) IPv4 subnets.)

And if last-mile providers did offer a la cart services, there would be general complaints about how the evil ISPs are "nickle-and-diming" their customers.

As for bandwidth caps and other things that are "ripe" for abuse. That's theory. Practice varies. Comcast isn't abusing it...at least not in a way that's visible around here. Yes, they were seriously nasty back in the bad old days of DPI and anti-torrenting behavior, but every Comcast tech I've interacted with, from netops on down to the contractor testing my home connection, is chiefly interested in building the best network they can.

Individuals, communities and corporations _always_ work around the limitations set forth by current networks, if they're allowed to. Users got bittorrent to deal with asynchronous network connections. Companies like Akami and Limelight seek to place their own distribution-point equipment within the boundaries of major networks, to reduce network-boundary congestion. And the owners of those networks rightly charge them for the privilege, infra and support costs that go with those arrangements.

"Net Neutrality" is an attempt at implementing a ham-handed, political solution to what is ultimately a technical and market problem. To put in place a net neutrality mandate would be to lock the shape of the network into the current status quo...unless you put in enough caveats and flexibility that it's meaningless and just another "we have to run this by a political committee before we can implement it." And that's not a good place to be.

The Internet is not mature, and I should hope it never ceases to be the hotbed of innovation and creativity it's been over the last thirty years. But a Net Neutrality mandate would be the biggest stifler of creativity it's ever seen.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 6:29 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (6 responses)

> "Net Neutrality" is an attempt at implementing a ham-handed, political solution to what is ultimately a technical and market problem.

that depends on how you define "Net Neutrality"

If you define it, as some people here have, as having no rules on what can be done with a connection, then you are correct.

However, if you go back and look at the problem that "Net Neutrality" was started to oppose, it's not a political solution to a technical problem, it's a political restraint on an unfair money grab on the part of some large ISPs.

If I pay my ISP for my connection, and you pay your ISP for your connection, why should I have to pay your ISP (or why should you have to pay my ISP) for the privilage of sending traffic between us?

That is what some ISPs were advocating should be the case. This is what the term "Network Neutrality" meant before people started distorting it.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 13:38 UTC (Fri) by mikemol (guest, #83507) [Link] (5 responses)

> However, if you go back and look at the problem that "Net Neutrality" was started to oppose, it's not a political solution to a technical problem, it's a political restraint on an unfair money grab on the part of some large ISPs.

*This* is exactly what I was referring to when I was talking about a ham-handed, political solution to what is ultimately a technical and market problem.

> If I pay my ISP for my connection, and you pay your ISP for your connection, why should I have to pay your ISP (or why should you have to pay my ISP) for the privilage of sending traffic between us?

Because the ISP owns the network, and if you're pushing enough traffic to visibly help saturate 10Gb peering links, you're effectively DoS'ing that ISP's connection on the other side of that network. Why *shouldn't* that ISP require you to help upgrade the connectivity path? The money has to come from somewhere. This is also why CDNs seek to put their own hardware on the near side of these links; it's cheaper to pay someone to host a rack than to help pay to trench new fiber between Chicago and Denver.

And if you're not saturating peering links, you really aren't someone anyone cares about for these issues, and you're applying small-scale-operator perspectives to large-scale-operator problems.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 18:44 UTC (Fri) by filteredperception (guest, #5692) [Link] (1 responses)

disclosure: complainant here
"
if you're pushing enough traffic to visibly help saturate 10Gb peering links, you're effectively DoS'ing that ISP's connection on the other side of that network. Why *shouldn't* that ISP require you to help upgrade the connectivity path?
"

My response to this kind of logic flows to the whole "unlimited" marketing terms having been some orwellianly stupid level of socially acceptable fraudulent advertising for the last decade. Hopefully, and I think this may be true, enough people are no longer completely mystified by what the internet is or how it basically works. As such, let's stop lying to everyone. Deal? (paraphrased: there is a limit, and I want to know it, to know how excited I really should be by the technology)

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 19:20 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

This all kind of sounds like the billing model for phone service, with residential, business, toll-free, and premium-rate services where one of the parties is billed on a per-connection, per-application basis, and where the telecom provider is a middleman in all business transactions using the network. This sounds like a reintroduction of toll-free billing where the recipient of the connection is billed per-connection and the initiator of the connection is just billed a monthly subscription rate.

What's old is new again 8-)

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 2, 2013 19:15 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

> if you're pushing enough traffic to visibly help saturate 10Gb peering links, you're effectively DoS'ing that ISP's

With traffic that the customer requested. Isn't it in the best interest of the ISP to provision enough resource to cover their customers requests, and charge appropriately? The data is not being pushed, it is being pulled.

> CDNs seek to put their own hardware on the near side of these links; it's cheaper

Indeed. It's cheaper for everyone involved, but if those CDNs carry competing data that the ISP also sells, such as video, then the ISPs have shown willingness to deny access and force the competing CDNs traffic through a slower, congested and more expensive path so as to be able to demonstrate better service with their in-house offering. This was the essence of the fight between Netflix and Comcast, Comcast refused to allow Netflix to install caches, at Netflix's own expense, that would improve performance for Comcast users and reduce overall network load for Comcast because that would compete with their CableTV and VOD offerings.

Is that the innovative network of the future you want?

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 4, 2013 22:59 UTC (Sun) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

> if you're pushing enough traffic to visibly help saturate 10Gb peering links, you're effectively DoS'ing that ISP's connection on the other side of that network. Why *shouldn't* that ISP require you to help upgrade the connectivity path?

remember, it's the ISP's customers who decide they want the data, not the website.

If I'm running a website, why should I have to track where people are connecting to me are from? I'm ALREADY paying for bandwith with my ISP.

let's flip this around a bit. If you think the problem is that Google is pushing too much data to Comcast customers, imagine the outrage that you would hear if Google were to announce that they were going to throttle connections to Comcast, giving Comcast customers worse service unless Comcast agrees to pay Google for the privilege.

After all, it's the Comcast customers who are creating the demand on the Google servers, causing Google to have to spend money on hardware and Internet connections.

Now That It’s in the Broadband Game, Google Flip-Flops on Network Neutrality (Wired)

Posted Aug 5, 2013 0:00 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> If I'm running a website, why should I have to track where people are connecting to me are from? I'm ALREADY paying for bandwith with my ISP.
For consumer connections? Hardly.

Business connections are there for good reasons. And "maximum profit by tiering services" is not the only one.


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