Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 22, 2013 23:09 UTC (Mon) by jhhaller (guest, #56103)
In reply to: Bacon: Announcing the Ubuntu Edge by martin.langhoff
Parent article: Bacon: Announcing the Ubuntu Edge

Lots of issues:
Safety certification (UL/CSA/CE Mark aspects/...) This is needed both for the power supply and the device itself
Environmental hazardous substance bans
Recycling fees (like in California)
Actual recycling (like in Europe)
Radio certification, both WiFi and cell frequencies and non-interference
Carrier certification
Warranty coverage/local repair centers and terms which vary by country
How is voice being done with an LTE-only device - VoLTE, Google Voice?
Which LTE frequencies will be covered?
Sales tax/VAT - some countries allow importer to pay this, others require a single distributor in each country to pay this. Otherwise your device may get stuck in customs.
Export/import classification for a number of countries - what happens if someone from North Korea tries to buy one - there is probably enough US content to prohibit it.
While power supplies can adapt to different voltage/frequency, different plugs are needed for each country. The power supplies are typically the most sensitive for safety regulations.
Non-uniformity of country laws - China prohibits full disk encryption - what unique laws may affect product?

Charging only an extra $30 to ship outside US/Europe makes me think Canonical doesn't understand how much getting certifications from multiple countries/carriers will cost, or will leave the risk of not being certified to the purchaser.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 22, 2013 23:37 UTC (Mon) by martin.langhoff (subscriber, #61417) [Link]

Exactly. And the list goes on and on.

If you don't have real hardware-heads on board and in-house, it's a nightmare. My hat goes off to the actual hardware people in OLPC, from whom I learned so much.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 22, 2013 23:44 UTC (Mon) by hamjudo (guest, #363) [Link] (16 responses)

As long as 10 watts is enough, there are many off the shelf chargers to choose from. So they don't need to certify their own.

The rest of the stuff on your list seems more daunting.

The chosen battery is a very new design. That will be hard to get approved and made in volume, unless it is also adopted by some larger projects.

They also chose a screen technology that isn't shipping in high volume yet. That is another thing to be concerned about. I'm not willing to bet against them succeeding, but they've got a lot of work to go. I hope they have a plan B for the screen and for the batteries, if their chosen options don't pan out.

The one day deal is also limited to 5000 people. They may hit the 5000 limit, before the time limit.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 0:23 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (15 responses)

The chosen battery is a very new design. That will be hard to get approved and made in volume...

They also chose a screen technology that isn't shipping in high volume yet.

And that's the whole point of the exercise! Sure, you'll need approvals but you most definitely don't need to build it "in volume" for an exclusive production run, available only through Indiegogo!

I hope they have a plan B for the screen and for the batteries, if their chosen options don't pan out.

They do. That's why Specifications are subject to change. But it's much easier to plan when you know exactly how many components you need to buy and have money eight months in advance. The worst that can happen (on the assumption that project will be funded in the end) is that they will need to spend more money then they'll receive from backers. This will not be good outcome, I guess, but I doubt they will miss target so much that Ubuntu will become bankrupt over this project.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 0:57 UTC (Tue) by martin.langhoff (subscriber, #61417) [Link] (14 responses)

The problem is that OEMs/ODMs don't take you seriously unless you are building in large scale. So for small scale, look at perhaps thousand per device -- so you can get access to the production line at an ODM that does small volumes. But forget about leverage with suppliers.

And the investment in certification and related paperwork for N number of countries... just does not make any sense.

If your battery is special, you may not even be able to ship it. Batteries pack a ton of energy in a small package (some say as much as a grenade) and can be unstable. So there are restrictions on airfreight. Ship by boat and wait 3+ months.

Some countries will not let you import devices without chargers; and are really anal about charger certification.

There's a zillion details like these. Each of them can be overcome... each of them at some cost in manpower, calendar time and cash. But often you suffer a thousand very expensive cuts _even when you have folks with a ton of hw experience involved_.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 2:21 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

If that's all so problematic then how could Trolltech ship Greenphone, then how could FIC ship Neo 1973 and how could dozens of small Chineese-based companies ship millions of devices around the world?

Somehow it's hard to reconcile the world where something is both positively, totally, absolutely impossible and is done routinely by huge number of guys.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 2:45 UTC (Tue) by martin.langhoff (subscriber, #61417) [Link] (1 responses)

It's not impossible. As I said, shipping small volumes worldwide makes no sense economically; but you can try.

But there is a simple and reasonable path: you just do the paperwork and ship to a handful of wealthy countries, that's where the money is, and "worldwide" sounds good for marketing :-) . Orders from elsewhere, you decline or refund orders -- or if you don't mind the risk, you just ship it and ignore the complaints if it gets lost.

There's one barrier that is also worth mentioning: outside of OECD, it's often hard to obtain credit cards, and even harder to use them to make purchases overseas. That is a pretty effective filter too.

IOWs, "worldwide" to online electronic retailers usually means OECD. As an ex-OLPC, it means something quite "wider" to me :-)

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 3:02 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

or, if it's small quantities, you accept small losses (or decreased margin) on shipping to the more out of the way locations rather than complicate the marketing/pricing.

In any case, I think this is far less about fund-raising than it is about marketing, making sure the new device gets out to a lot of people in a hurry.

With this approach they get a large number of people around the world eager to show off their new phone, a lot of press around it, and mostly (if not completely) cover their costs.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 6:24 UTC (Tue) by AlexHudson (guest, #41828) [Link]

FIC were already making mobile phones, yet look how long the Neo 1973 actually took - and how many hardware revisions were needed. Did Openmoko ever ship a version of that themselves that actually worked well?

I think the comments about Canonical not being in a position to do this are spot-on, making mobile phones is extremely hard. They're sticking a lot of new tech in this phone, and some of it looks relatively necessary (eg, can they really power all that ram/screen/etc. with standard li-ion?). It's a nice design but it's a lot of risk, and they're planning to do a production run within ten months.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 8:11 UTC (Tue) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (9 responses)

Ship by boat and wait 3+ months.

Why? The transit time is not 3 months (e.g. China->Europe). Where is all this time coming from? I can easily determine the transit time if you tell me which place this is coming from and going to.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 13:27 UTC (Tue) by martin.langhoff (subscriber, #61417) [Link] (8 responses)

3 months is a rule of thumb from ex works China to customs dock at destination port, with some padding for pickup from ex-works, delivery to ship, the odd port closure due to storm, strike, etc.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 19:04 UTC (Tue) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (2 responses)

IMO, it seems you were lied to or you really used some bad carrier/forwarder (MSC?). The transit time for China -> Europe should be around 1 month or so (vessel, not any inland bit). After the container arrives at destination, you have to pay per day if you don't pick it up or hand it back empty on time. I'm guessing you didn't fill the entire container yourself, so I'm guessing you used some forwarder and the forwarder just didn't have enough space/capacity (either enough to fill a container or reserved space on the vessel) and told you some lies. Or maybe total lack of experience (though forwarder should be able to handle that for you).

Note: Above applies to China->Europe or China->North America. Africa has "TIA" abbreviation ("This Is Africa" is often enough as explanation :P).

Bad forwarder example (friend shared his experience): some forwarder took ages to actually ship some household goods from Latin America to Europe. All kinds of stupid reasons were given to explain the delay. When that person had enough and told the forwarder to stop making up stories and that he was working in the shipping industry the forwarder shut up and the household goods were shipped in the same week. Household goods are actually things that can be held up by customs for a while (at destination). But electronics? I unfortunately only know how it is handled for big companies, but there isn't too much delay.

You do have port closures due to storm, but those are somewhat predictable. Strike means you're shipping to France :P (occurs very regularly in that country, though usually strikes are pre-announced and they're dealt with).

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 26, 2013 8:33 UTC (Fri) by ortalo (guest, #4654) [Link] (1 responses)

Is it really true there are never strikes outside of France?

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 26, 2013 9:55 UTC (Fri) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link]

No, it is just that the rest is a rounding error in comparison. Lately it seems way better, but strike in France at one time (I kept track of it for 6 months) occurred *at least* every other week, while there aren't that many vessel calls to France. In France they go on strike for reasons not related to their employer, e.g. to protest against the government. In most other countries (talking only about North Europe, Mediterranean area is different), the strikes occur during salary negotiations (strike is related to the employer). If you're a bit insightful as a company you keep track of when terminals are doing their negotiations and ask beforehand if they expect difficulties or not. You also of course have strikes elsewhere, but e.g. North Europe it seems more like power play (in my impression).

This all my opinion, not on behalf of anyone.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 22:05 UTC (Tue) by andrel (guest, #5166) [Link] (4 responses)

According to a recent NY Times article total transit time from factory in China to warehouse in Netherlands is 5 weeks by sea, 3 weeks by rail, and 1 week by air.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 22:42 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

It's possible to get faster train transit, though not much faster.

However their shipping time estimation is definitely on the optimistic side.

In our experience its more like 8-10 weeks to get a shipment from China to Germany. It also depends on the demand for shipping - if demand is high then shipowners often increase the speed of the ships. It increases the amount of wear and fuel used, but creates additional capacity.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 23:01 UTC (Tue) by andrel (guest, #5166) [Link]

Yes, those numbers are for a large multinational with a dedicated team of expediters. For most shippers it will take longer.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 24, 2013 2:56 UTC (Wed) by martin.langhoff (subscriber, #61417) [Link] (1 responses)

Yep 8-10 weeks is my experience as well. What they promise is of little relevance, it always ends up taking at least 8w.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 24, 2013 4:07 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

I've seen 3-4 weeks repeatedly, including from small companies that haven't done it before. It's not impossible. It does take doing some planning ahead of time (during the time that the product is being produced)

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 0:16 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (5 responses)

Radio certification, both WiFi and cell frequencies and non-interference.

These are important, yes - but looks like they are thinking about it: before launch we will conduct interoperability testing with networks in Europe, the US, South America, China, India, the Middle East and Africa - it'll be silly to spend so much effort testing it in India and Middle East and then not certify it there, right?

Carrier certification.

WTH is that and why do you need it?

Warranty coverage/local repair centers and terms which vary by country.

But then all these laws are only applicable if you actually have someone in said country. Otherwise the worst that can happen is that phone will be stopped on the border and you'll be forced to issue a refund.

How is voice being done with an LTE-only device - VoLTE, Google Voice?

That's not an LTE-only device. LTE-only devices don't work in all countries that provide GSM/3G/LTE-based network services.

Sales tax/VAT - some countries allow importer to pay this, others require a single distributor in each country to pay this. Otherwise your device may get stuck in customs.

And buyer will go and get it from customs. Somehow it's not a problem for seven-person team of Xiaomi or similarly-sized team of Meizu, but huge problem for relatively large company like Canonical? Puhleaze.

While power supplies can adapt to different voltage/frequency, different plugs are needed for each country.

There are an even easier solution: don't provide power supply at all. Power supply for any smartphone (or even your laptop) will work. Or provide US plug and add bunch of plugs to it. Again: there are tons of manufacturers who'll gladly supply you with power adapters in China.

Charging only an extra $30 to ship outside US/Europe makes me think Canonical doesn't understand how much getting certifications from multiple countries/carriers will cost, or will leave the risk of not being certified to the purchaser.

As someone who uses non-certified-it-my-country phone for couple of years I can say: it works just fine without any certification if it actually complies with standards.

I think you are confusing things: you are thinking about "worldwide distribution via usual channels" and Canonical thinks about an exclusive production run, available only through Indiegogo. Totally different goals with totally different set of requirements.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 1:10 UTC (Tue) by martin.langhoff (subscriber, #61417) [Link] (4 responses)

> it'll be silly to spend so much effort testing it in India and Middle East and then not certify it there, right?

Interop testing is very different from certification! Costs, paperwork, lead times...

> buyer will go and get it from customs

Nope. That only works _of the customer is at the port of entry!_ and in many cases custom will not release it.

It is simple. If you don't do certifications and related paperwork (ie: recycling for EU) you will have devices held up at customs. Maybe some get through, but it's an expensive bet to take.

The companies you list seem to be manufacturing in China and selling in China. That's easy -- only one market to certify, and planning to make and sell in large scale.

What is hard, costly and time-consuming is certifying and doing all related paperwork for many different countries. It makes sense if you're planning to sell a large number in each country you certify for.

And some countries/regions are just complicated and expensive. For example, electronics are expensive in EU... and now I know why: the manufacturer/importer has to pay a significant recycling fee and make arrangements for recycling. The barriers to entry are very high.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 2:03 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (3 responses)

The companies you list seem to be manufacturing in China and selling in China.

Nope. They are manufacturing in China yet ship worldwide. Here is Xiaomi and here is Meizu. They are quite popular in India and Russia, for example.

For example, electronics are expensive in EU... and now I know why: the manufacturer/importer has to pay a significant recycling fee and make arrangements for recycling. The barriers to entry are very high.

Sure, but this is one of the worst offenders and since they offer free shipping in UK I think EU is covered. And US is covered explicitly. This means that most problematic countries are covered already, so what's left? Japan? Yes, this can be a problem, but I doubt there will be many orders from Japan. Some other countries (North Korea?) will probably not be covered and they'll be forced to offer a refund, but I think they'll be able to send these phones to most countries.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 2:15 UTC (Tue) by martin.langhoff (subscriber, #61417) [Link]

Well they are aiming for volume. So they've certified and done legal legwork for the markets they care about.

I call bs on the "ship worldwide". I am certain they won't ship to many locations in Africa, south pacific or Argentina, just to name a few. OECD is not the world.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 8:24 UTC (Tue) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (1 responses)

You're showing DX.com. That is not Xiaomi. Anyone can resell anything there. Quite obvious as it is just one very outdated model from Xiaomi.

From their FAQ:

The customs and import issues including any taxes,tariffs and item seizures are the sole responsibility of the customers. Invoices are never included in the package. Hong Kong warehouse items and international warehouse items are not subject to any export taxes.

Regarding the package declaration, orders shipped with airmail use the product category for the description.

I have ordered from dx.com various times and usually things are EC-certified (or maybe they faked the logo :P). Still, it clearly says that for customs things, you're on your own.

Maybe you have a point. Just that DX.com is not a good example.

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 28, 2013 11:48 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

If you by "EC-Certified" you mean the CE mark, note that is a self-certification of applicable standards being met. So it's not at all difficult to get...

Problems with hardware

Posted Jul 23, 2013 2:02 UTC (Tue) by heijo (guest, #88363) [Link]

Hopefully the device is not LTE-only, since that would make it unusable outside of major cities which are the only places where LTE is available in many countries.