Mobile patent wars: Google goes on the attack

Posted Aug 22, 2012 20:44 UTC (Wed) by rahvin (guest, #16953)
Parent article: Mobile patent wars: Google goes on the attack

Patents in mobile have always been based on MAD (Mutually assured destruction). The whole point of FRAND is a recognition of that and attempt to defuse it.

When Apple stepped up and started suing for the few patents they held (and no intent to fairly license under FRAND like terms) they violated the MAD agreement and essentially made the FRAND patent pools worthless. This war will only continue to escalate until either the MAD balance is restored or everyone is out of business or all the patents are invalidated. Given the size of patent pools involved I believe in the long run Apple is at a serious disadvantage unless they can get MS to share the Nokia patents with them.

Mobile patent wars: Google goes on the attack

Posted Aug 22, 2012 21:33 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (14 responses)

> The whole point of FRAND is a recognition of that and attempt to defuse it.

It doesn't seem that way to me. It's just more of the sort of anti-trust anti-monopolopy political maneuvering that is designed to make a terrible and evil practice and make it seem more acceptable and palatable. If they let the patent wars escalate then their patents will lose value, but if they are able to control the 'violence' then they can retain their values.

Think of the mafia truces in order to avoid having violence ruin their businesses. It's the same concept.

Patents licensing agreements are used by large businesses to make sure small businesses don't have a chance to become large businesses. That's the fundamental point to all of this. Google managed to short circuit this somewhat by carefully jumping 'sideways' into the phone market, but it's costing them big time. The amount that Google has had to spend so far in this 'IP war' is literally in the BILLIONS. And they are not even directly in the cross hairs of most of the patent suites yet.

Could you imagine what you could do with the 13+ billion dollars Google had to spend on mobile phone IP if you could invest that in actual useful research?

> This war will only continue to escalate until either the MAD balance is restored or everyone is out of business or all the patents are invalidated. Given the size of patent pools involved I believe in the long run Apple is at a serious disadvantage unless they can get MS to share the Nokia patents with them.

Microsoft has repeatedly gone out of it's way in the past to help Apple. All the 'Mac vs PC' BS is just a example on how fantastic Apple is at marketing. The fact that Apple can make people believe that they are in some sort of deadly competition with the corporation that has not only saved them from bankruptcy, but is also the #1 software vendor for OS X is one of the most utterly mindbogglingly successful pieces of marketing propaganda of all times.

So if Apple/Nokia/Microsoft have to team up to keep Open Source/Google/Linux/Asian corps in their place then they won't hesitate to do this.

Apple vs Google

Posted Aug 22, 2012 23:20 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (10 responses)

Thanks for this post: it is some of your finest work.

Jobs was willing to go nuclear and now Apple is reaping what he sowed; I bet they have considered this scenario, so I wonder what attacks they have up their sleeves.

In the end this stupid lawsuit will have a boring ending like most of them: with an out-of-court settlement and an opaque agreement; without Jobs I don't think they will have the strength to withstand even a possible iPhone embargo, not even with Microsoft's help. In a few months Samsung, HTC and other Android manufacturers will be able to continue their business. So I am afraid that it will not be too entertaining but for the lawyers who have to broker the deals.

Apple vs Google

Posted Aug 22, 2012 23:37 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (6 responses)

for this to settle down to an out-of-gourt opaque agreement, Google will have to be willing to do so.

At the moment, I would be hard pressed to see Google willing to settle for anything less than Apple stopping all lawsuits in the mobile space and all future lawsuits against Android (and probably FOSS to boot)

Apple stopping all the other lawsuits will not stop the counter-suits from all those other companies, and Google is not in a position to force them to stop (and unlike Google, many of these companies have been using lawsuits as offensive weapons). Add to this the fact that Apple has been refusing the normal patent license terms (small amounts of money and cross licensing deals), and there is even less reason for all these other companies to let up on their attack against Apple.

Apple stopping all these lawsuits will be a very public action, and no matter what the opaque terms of their settlement with Google, will be seen as Apple backing off.

As a result, I don't think there is much chance for the typical "silence and cross licensing agreement" that happens between big companies.

Apple vs Google

Posted Aug 23, 2012 0:56 UTC (Thu) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (4 responses)

Google would settle for a cross-licensing deal that protects Android but not others, I'm sure. Such a deal would necessarily prevent Apple from attacking the Linux kernel (since GPLv2 wouldn't let Google accept a license for Linux that doesn't extend to others), but probably would not protect other free/open software.

This wouldn't prevent third parties from attacking both Apple and the Android camp (Google/Motorola + Samsung + HTC + others). But nothing can.

Apple vs Google

Posted Aug 23, 2012 1:03 UTC (Thu) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

but would apple accept something that forced them to stop their lawsuits against Samsung + HTC + others but didn't force those people to stop their lawsuits against Apple?

I don't think so.

And I also don't think that Google has the influence to get all of those companies to stop their lawsuits. Remember that many of those suits were started completely independently of Android. Many of those players really do seem to like lawsuits.

Apple vs Google

Posted Aug 23, 2012 1:44 UTC (Thu) by shentino (guest, #76459) [Link] (2 responses)

Sorry, but you need v3 to get patent licensing.

RTFL

Apple vs Google

Posted Aug 23, 2012 2:15 UTC (Thu) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (1 responses)

" 7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent
infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues),
conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or
otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not
excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot
distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this
License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you
may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent
license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by
all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then
the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to
refrain entirely from distribution of the Program."

The preamble makes it clear what the intention of section 7 is.

Apple vs Google

Posted Aug 23, 2012 10:03 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Yes, section 7 is the infamous "Liberty or Death" clause, which on the surface looks like a disaster in the making but to date has had brilliant results. It is a direct consequence of the unrelenting nature of Stallman's position on software freedom.

Apple vs Google

Posted Sep 1, 2012 21:30 UTC (Sat) by SecretEuroPatentAgentMan (guest, #66656) [Link]

> At the moment, I would be hard pressed to see Google willing to settle for anything less than Apple stopping all lawsuits in the mobile space and all future lawsuits against Android (and probably FOSS to boot)

The norm in patent wars is to reach an agreement to stop all current conflict. An agreement to stop also future lawsuits is not realistic since nobody can know what future conflicts may appear. Patent wars are means of pushing the business leaders towards signing an agreement, I am not aware that total wars to destroy the other part is a goal though there have been close shaves. With Steve Jobs declaring war on Google the motive and starting point is now a little different from the norm.

> Apple stopping all these lawsuits will be a very public action, and no matter what the opaque terms of their settlement with Google, will be seen as Apple backing off.

Settlements tend to be confidential though it will be public that all patent conflicts will be terminated. Both parts will be backing off; which one is backing off the most is likely to remain secret. In my limited experience any monetary victory is normally tiny and mutual secrecy is assured by equally mutual embarrassment.

Apple vs Google

Posted Aug 22, 2012 23:48 UTC (Wed) by hummassa (subscriber, #307) [Link] (2 responses)

> Thanks for this post: it is some of your finest work.

Seconded; the comparison with the mafia truces is brilliant, and even encompasses the benefits for the general public!

Apple ♥ Microsoft

Posted Aug 23, 2012 10:16 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (1 responses)

That, and the eye-opening part about Apple and Microsoft getting cozy in bed while Apple disparages Microsoft in public. Having being (and I demand to get my screen name blurred while confessing this) an Apple fanboi in the dark days of 1996-2000, I followed the soap opera from the first row, including the baffling $150M kiss. I had really not seen it clearly until now.

If Jobs was still at the helm he would be screaming murder on all media right now, saying that Google was "attacking innovation itself" and seeking the help of his army of trendy drones to fight for their iToys. In a morbid sense I miss the drama.

Apple ♥ Microsoft

Posted Aug 29, 2012 2:35 UTC (Wed) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

heh. Nice link. I enjoyed reading something from way back when Java was a threat to Windows... somehow....

Maybe Dalvik made good on this, in some weird way :)

Mobile patent wars: Google goes on the attack

Posted Aug 23, 2012 1:41 UTC (Thu) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (2 responses)

It doesn't seem that way to me.

I can see how you read a difference in opinion in what I wrote (I was exhausted when I wrote it), but I actually feel the same way. I was simply trying to use softer language and focus on the fact that the protection racket (your term) that is FRAND breached the patent truce that existed to keep small players out of the market while not materially harming the major players.

It's that breach that's ultimately either going to destroy the entire market (and run the risk of political change to the patent system) or result in a reestablishment of the protection racket with apple participating in the protection racket. But that will only work when Apple is willing to put their patents into the FRAND pools. I've always had the impression that Apple would be more willing to burn the entire mobile market to the ground rather than give up the lawsuits to try to slow Android's momentum.

I'll also note that this is the argument that Google made in one of their more recent filings in the Apple trial, essentially that if Apple is allowed to license FRAND patents but not put theirs in the pool the pools will go away and its going to be a very bloody patent fight for everyone involved. Essentially if Apple can license but not contribute FRAND goes away because no one will contribute to the pool because Apple can unfairly use the pools against those that contribute.

People might not be aware but MS has already purchased a license to these Apple patents (probably to help fund Apple's attack on Android).

Mobile patent wars: Google goes on the attack

Posted Aug 23, 2012 15:52 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

> I've always had the impression that Apple would be more willing to burn the entire mobile market to the ground rather than give up the lawsuits to try to slow Android's momentum.

I see this too and it seems totally insane to me, there is no good outcome that can come of these lawsuits. I was hoping that when Steve Jobs passed the new CEO would stop the madness but that isn't happening.

Mobile patent wars: Google goes on the attack

Posted Aug 24, 2012 6:07 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link]

At some point all these suits will close and the results going to be the banning of nearly every consumer tablet and phone. When the iPhone and iPad get pulled off the shelves and Apple revenue falls by 95% they will change tune. But it's unfortunate they can't see that coming. Like you, I'd hoped Cook would have made that his first action after Jobs died but he doesn't seem to have the cojones to stop something Jobs started.

Maybe that's MS's grand plan, as they've went around licensing all the patents maybe it's their intention to be the only devices still on the shelves.