McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
Nautilus was a bit of black sheep among the GNOME 3 core applications. It had a design that grew organically over many years and didn’t really seem to fit in any more. In bringing it back up to par we now have things like a much improved and space efficient maximized window state, a more consistent menu layout and behavior, more consistent use of icons, and a more GNOME 3 style pathbar and toolbar."
Posted Aug 2, 2012 21:28 UTC (Thu)
by mmonaco (guest, #84041)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 0:45 UTC (Fri)
by smoogen (subscriber, #97)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 0:51 UTC (Fri)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link] (3 responses)
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-Novem...
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:43 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (2 responses)
Currently the software rendering would render everything using software. Ideally that would only use software for the stuff that is not supported. Apparently that is quite difficult.
The software rendering also doesn't work under some architectures (arm + s390 IIRC). Furthermore, OpenBSD mentioned they need some work as well to support software rendering (should be ready around GNOME 3.6.0 release).
Posted Aug 4, 2012 15:30 UTC (Sat)
by clump (subscriber, #27801)
[Link]
- Hardware rendered
Posted Aug 5, 2012 2:15 UTC (Sun)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link]
True. In fact, my xrdp sessions cannot run Gnome Shell at all (runs Xvnc in the back, really).
Posted Aug 3, 2012 0:52 UTC (Fri)
by ncm (guest, #165)
[Link] (1 responses)
The only tricky bit was getting it and FF to obey Emacs edit key bindings. Hand-editing .mateconf files didn't work, but
That said, I never used Nautilus, and don't expect to use Caja much either. Thus, also:
It's pretty silly to have to do this sort of thing.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 9:16 UTC (Fri)
by Frej (guest, #4165)
[Link]
Posted Aug 2, 2012 22:59 UTC (Thu)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (49 responses)
For example, I still haven't figured out the keyboard shortcut to go to the parent directory - backspace doesn't work anymore. There are no menus with "Go Up" entry so there's no way to discover it anymore.
Posted Aug 2, 2012 23:10 UTC (Thu)
by mordae (guest, #54701)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 2, 2012 23:49 UTC (Thu)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link]
Yeah, maybe (although I find it OK after using it for many, many years now).
One thing cannot be disputed though. It is the most complete (in the enterprise sense) mail client for Gnome. It supports 3 types of native Exchange connectivity (apart from the usual open protocols), it can edit LDAP contacts etc. Once it gets completely ported to WebKit (which is under way), it will also handle dreaded HTML mail much better.
I also found Red Hat folks in charge of its maintenance very responsive (as part of Fedora). As long as you give them a backtrace (and they are very helpful in telling folks how), they will fix it.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 1:42 UTC (Fri)
by donbarry (guest, #10485)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 2:07 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link]
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:15 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link]
Posted Aug 4, 2012 12:43 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (4 responses)
(Tests show that everyone who sticks with our new torture-users user interface loves it! In fact many of them are asking for more such features! You stick-in-the-muds who are protesting just hate change.)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 19:30 UTC (Sat)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 21:16 UTC (Sat)
by dashesy (guest, #74652)
[Link] (2 responses)
Sent from my shiny but yet useful Cinnamon Fedora!
Posted Aug 5, 2012 3:03 UTC (Sun)
by donbarry (guest, #10485)
[Link]
Posted Aug 5, 2012 9:27 UTC (Sun)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
I'll probably try Cinnamon in a year or so, once it matures up a bit more. I mostly like the new GTK3 libraries and L&F, it's just the rest of the GNOME that I hate.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 1:56 UTC (Fri)
by cmccabe (guest, #60281)
[Link]
Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:02 UTC (Fri)
by tchernobog (guest, #73595)
[Link] (13 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:15 UTC (Fri)
by cwillu (guest, #67268)
[Link]
The existence of a new "preferred" shortcut is not sufficient reason to remove the old, especially when balanced against the old being in common use across multiple operating systems for decades.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 5:24 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 10:25 UTC (Fri)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:50 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (4 responses)
However, I'm definitely not OK anymore with GNOME's brain-missing designers. Lack of backspace key navigation was definitely NOT a bug, but a design decision.
BTW, my comment to the blog post asking about this behavior has been moderated. That's why there are so many positive reactions in the comments and almost no negative ones.
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:16 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:19 UTC (Sat)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 8:27 UTC (Sat)
by ebassi (subscriber, #54855)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 6, 2012 14:48 UTC (Mon)
by jpnp (guest, #63341)
[Link]
Posted Aug 3, 2012 14:02 UTC (Fri)
by seyman (subscriber, #1172)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:48 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (2 responses)
That's another WTF moment. I have _no_ idea how they came up with this shortcut: backspace is traditional, alt-left is used by browser and is fairly logical, alt-up is OK and intuitive. WTH alt+home means?
Posted Aug 3, 2012 16:55 UTC (Fri)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (1 responses)
And in fact, in both Firefox, Chrome and Internet Explorer it sends you to the home page.
If in Nautilus it sends you to the parent directory, well... one has to recognize that it takes some real talent to get EVERYTHING wrong without fail (and perhaps without even trying!).
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:17 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link]
Posted Aug 14, 2012 12:10 UTC (Tue)
by MortenSickel (subscriber, #3238)
[Link]
Posted Aug 3, 2012 6:12 UTC (Fri)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link] (20 responses)
But seriously, I'm at a loss here, can't really see the purpose of removing not usable, but BASIC features like both the "go up" button and the corresponding shortcut key. Adding an interesting feature like "make a folder out of these items" (btw, how discoverable is that? not really, eh? guess it will be removed in the next version of Nautilus!) doesn't make up for that; and not all of them are useful or interesting: search when you type instead of selecting items? Ewwww!
I know it is crazy, but sometimes I think that Gnome 3 is actually an exercise in evil psychology, seeing how far you can go with your users before they break down and have psychotic reactions ... that, or just a wild sadistic attitude XD
Rehdon
Posted Aug 3, 2012 23:21 UTC (Fri)
by AndreE (guest, #60148)
[Link] (19 responses)
I'm a KDE fanboi, but I do wonder why every post about GNOME brings out the drama kings and queens
Posted Aug 4, 2012 6:35 UTC (Sat)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link]
BTW yours is another typical reaction: 'this is free for you, so you can't criticize it, and if you do I'll just label it as "whining", "hate" and the like'. I respectfully disagree, 'free' doesn't give you a free pass from criticism, especially since I just can't see how you can build *any* kind of complex software in a vacuum, ignoring users' feedback.
Rehdon
Posted Aug 6, 2012 9:59 UTC (Mon)
by fb (guest, #53265)
[Link] (5 responses)
I guess the reason people complain about these changes is because it really breaks one's work flow. By that I really mean how well the desktop gets out of your way to simply let you *work*. The 2 main Linux desktops break user experience far too often (for some users) for no apparent reason or gain.
The tragedy of the Linux desktop is that loads of people use Gnome/KDE for work, but no one managed to turn these professional users into customers. There is really no option to become a Gnome/KDE "subscriber" (like for LWN). (yes, Red Hat has a desktop offering. No, not even the sales staff at Red Hat seems to know/care about it).
A while ago I bought a laptop for my parents (who live far far away) and would happily pay subscription fees for $DESKTOP in order to minimize regressions and increase 'just work' support (think printers/scanners), trouble is that in practice, that option does not exist.
IMHO the writing is on the wall. Except for ideologically committed folks, people with the financial means will keep migrating to OSX. The 'easy, stable & secure computer for parents' will cease to be `Linux with Ubuntu` and will become the Ipad or some Android tablet (should anyone ever release a decent offering *globally*).
Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:30 UTC (Mon)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (4 responses)
Amen to this. We have a market failure. The users and DE developers appear disconnected from each other (at least, a schism has opened up that wasn't there before). Many users have left to a certain proprietary system. The DE developers don't owe the users anything. Those indebted users who would like to pay have but mediocre options.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:48 UTC (Mon)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link] (3 responses)
I understand that all designers are impractical people who will happily produce something insane and impossible and then insist that it's brilliant in the face of all objection. They're artists, artists are like that. What I don't understand is why engineers are blindly following the advice of these people.
No one who isn't an engineer should design user interaction. It's said that engineers make terrible designers, but it's more true that non-engineers make terrible everything, so there's no option. The happy place is when the dreamy, impractical fool^H^H^H^Hartists thinks up his new design.... and then hands it to an engineer, who throws out the idiotic parts and builds the rest.
Somewhere along the way GNOME developers have stopped being engineers and started doing whatever the designers say. It's irresponsible, but I do understand. Developers love to not make choices, and if you have someone telling you "I know that it should work exactly like this" it's something of a relief to just be able to do that and not guess, and not write a ton of code to push the decision out to the user. But doing this is harmful! You're trusting people who by nature and inclination do not think things through to have thought things through; there's simply no way this can work and, of course, the result is horrible.
The solution is simple: Have developers in charge of applications who actually use the applications and who will ignore suggestions from designers when those suggestions are obviously impractical or deficient. That's the way good things have always been produced.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 17:29 UTC (Mon)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link] (2 responses)
> I understand that all designers are impractical people who will happily produce something insane and impossible and then insist that it's brilliant in the face of all objection.
Any person who does that is not a designer at all. Designers make extensive previous user-centered research, with tools like etnographic research, questionnaires and others. And designers, during the development of their products, do EXTENSIVE and INTENSIVE prototyping and testing WITH THEIR TARGET AUDIENCES, using A/B testing and other user testing tools. Engineers and software developers, OTOH, tend to think mistakingly they are the target audience, and they have vices like engraving the product or service with their own preferences, or removing important (from the point of view of the user) features, or, worse yet, setting novelty features as default (which breaks the user workflow 99% of the time).
Good design drives development in the direction of the user. The developers should help with the input and point the possibility of technical problems, or technically solve those problems. It's just like air traffic controllers show pilots where they should take their planes. Pilots still have to control the plane, but the important thing is that THE PASSENGERS arrive where they want to.
Posted Aug 11, 2012 14:35 UTC (Sat)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link] (1 responses)
> Engineers and software developers, OTOH, tend to think mistakingly they are the target audience
> Good design drives development in the direction of the user.
> The developers should help with the input and point the possibility of technical problems, or technically solve those problems. It's just like air traffic controllers show pilots where they should take their planes.
If you do X and it leads to Y, and Y is something you don't like, then maybe you should stop doing X. What happened that lead to this disaster? I say "Blindly following the designer's crazed theories," but I'm not married to that interpretation if an alternative can be suggested that also matches the observed reality. If your counter is "This isn't a disaster" then I'm sorry, I was talking to the people who recognize that there is a problem and want to fix it, not those who are contributing to it.
Posted Aug 13, 2012 16:50 UTC (Mon)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link]
They don't even know what their target audience is, which is why they keep pissing off people who actually use their software with every upgrade.
> Your analogy is backwards. Designers are the air traffic controllers, developers are the pilots.
That is EXACTLY my analogy, either I didn't express myself correctly (possible, sorry, English as a foreign language here) or you didn't understand it... please read again.
> If you do X and it leads to Y, and Y is something you don't like, then maybe you should stop doing X. What happened that lead to this disaster? I say "Blindly following the designer's crazed theories," but I'm not married to that interpretation if an alternative can be suggested that also matches the observed reality. If your counter is "This isn't a disaster" then I'm sorry, I was talking to the people who recognize that there is a problem and want to fix it, not those who are contributing to it.
Again, my point was GNOME had no designers. Designers would not have lead them to the present disaster, and oh boy, is GNOME 3 a disaster... (even if it is kinda cool, it's still missing parts and it's not installable alongside "just works" GNOME2, so...)
Posted Aug 6, 2012 23:14 UTC (Mon)
by JoeF (guest, #4486)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Aug 6, 2012 23:44 UTC (Mon)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link] (10 responses)
well, actually... The kde 3->4 transition was poorly handled, too, but kde4-libs are really well-engineered, so kde users got really disappointed b/c we thought it would go better. The apps took too long to convert and we got Amarok kde4-based and IIRC digikam kde3-based. *And* we had a BEAUTIFUL, FAST and full-featured browser (konqueror) that took forever to convert (and it was never really the same, after). And much of the outcry was because the transition was really well-handled from kde 1->2 and 2->3. The conversion took so long that by the time we had the functional equivalent of kde 3.5.0, it was already 4.3 or 4.4.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 0:44 UTC (Tue)
by ewan (guest, #5533)
[Link] (8 responses)
User: "Wah! It's broken!"
whereas with Gnome 3 it feels more like:
User: "Wah! It's broken!"
Posted Aug 7, 2012 7:24 UTC (Tue)
by renox (guest, #23785)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Aug 7, 2012 9:26 UTC (Tue)
by ewan (guest, #5533)
[Link] (2 responses)
As people have said several times in this very thread, the problem isn't the introduction of a shiny new (not quite working) search feature. The problem is the withdrawal of an existing, working, expected and useful feature.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 15:55 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
Defaulting to an unusable system? WTF!
Okay, if I will run it on an Athlon t-bird, but I came across plenty of reports of boot times measured in tens of minutes, and occasionally hours, when some poor sod didn't realise his "upgrade" had activated Nepomuk. How are you supposed to recover your system if it's taking eons to boot?
I can't remember how bad it was for me, but I can remember struggling to disable it to get a usable system back. I think it might have been enabled again by now but ...
The main excuse by the developers for enabling it was "but it'll make using kmail faster..." - another WTF moment! How many KDE users run kmail? I've NEVER used it - why should I want an app on my system enabled by default who's *only* effect on my normal work is to slow it to the speed of frozen treacle?
That said, I've stuck with KDE ever since SuSE 5.x, although I've now got xfce and lxde installed as well - lxde looks nice ... :-)
Cheers,
Posted Aug 7, 2012 16:56 UTC (Tue)
by BlueLightning (subscriber, #38978)
[Link]
Are you sure you're not confusing Nepomuk with Akonadi?
Posted Aug 7, 2012 14:03 UTC (Tue)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link]
once I deactivated it (on KDE 4.1) I had to manually reactivate it (on KDE 4.8) as I heard it was working properly.
Posted Aug 8, 2012 0:37 UTC (Wed)
by jackb (guest, #41909)
[Link]
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=264465
Posted Aug 7, 2012 9:53 UTC (Tue)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (1 responses)
That is if the conversation doesn't go like
Posted Aug 7, 2012 14:05 UTC (Tue)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link]
Posted Aug 7, 2012 1:24 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
But it's not that that's the reason why. As a gentoo user, I got fed up with Amarok repeatedly breaking Postfix - and as I run a local mail server that's a big deal. Some screw-up with MySQL settings.
But I like Clementine, it's nice.
Cheers,
Posted Aug 3, 2012 7:57 UTC (Fri)
by Russ.Dill@gmail.com (guest, #52805)
[Link]
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:44 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 5, 2012 22:57 UTC (Sun)
by ncm (guest, #165)
[Link]
The Gnome 3 development process must be exciting to participate in, but that has nothing at all to do with whether its outcome is any good. Probably it would be better to evaluate development processes according to how good the results are. While that might be less immediately gratifying to the developers (really, the only ones who matter), to produce software that gets used and not cursed at is finally more gratifying, for most of us.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 0:53 UTC (Fri)
by bats999 (guest, #70285)
[Link]
Search may be a problem, it looks as if that particular use case will trample everything else in the program.
"One way we can do better is not rely on our ability to predict the future. We are pretty awful at it most of the time." Oh, the irony.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 3:22 UTC (Fri)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (61 responses)
Also, newsflash: search is done with an *INPUT BOX ON THE TOP RIGHT* (or integrated in the URL bar) in all browsers and Windows Explorer (since Windows Vista in 2006), NOT WITH A BUTTON.
Oh, and please explain why your new pet feature "New folder with selection" is more worthy of inclusion than the 20-years-established features you butchered, genius.
And then, your "type ahead find" removal is bullshit, in Firefox "type ahead" searches within the CURRENT PAGE, and the search box searches the UNIVERSE: this is obvious to any 3 year old, but no, he has to vandalize the ability to select files by name in a folder to add global search...
And there's no mention of removing the tree view, lol, it's going to be funny when real users that...
This is what happens when you have a dictatorship with a bad dictator.
Please revert all his shitty commits that remove features (but maybe keep the new features he added, after fixing them to comply with the UI everybody else uses, as they seem kind of useful).
Posted Aug 3, 2012 3:52 UTC (Fri)
by tchernobog (guest, #73595)
[Link] (60 responses)
From TFA: "This implies a few things. That searching be: fast, performed as you type, [...]"
Uhm, did you actually *read it*, before going on a ./-like rampage?
However, if people actually provided a list of use-cases, instead of flaming, maybe it would be possible to design software making sure they are covered.
Mind you, not that I always agree with the direction the designer team is taking. They are giving GNOME identity, but at a great price.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 3:59 UTC (Fri)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (59 responses)
This is WRONG: typing must result in selecting the first file in the current view/folder that has the typed text as a prefix (or perhaps anywhere in the name, although that differs from Windows Explorer).
Showing a "search results view" is done by clicking on an input box in the top right of the UI, typing and usually pressing Enter (although "live search" is also fine).
That's the way Windows Explorer works, the way Firefox works, the way iTunes works, the way EVERYTHING not designed by the GNOME 3 morons works.
Oh and the side tree view is in Windows Explorer (the file manager 90%+ of computer users are most familiar with) since 1992, and is a fundamental feature, so it really takes a madman to even consider removing it.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:19 UTC (Fri)
by tchernobog (guest, #73595)
[Link] (14 responses)
I understand the problem, especially if you have a lot of files. Maybe someone should point it out *politely*, by writing to the designer team mailing list, presenting their use-case.
> Oh and the side tree view is in Windows Explorer (the file manager 90%+ of computer users are most familiar with) since 1992, and is a fundamental feature, so it really takes a madman to even consider removing it.
I don't know if it is so fundamental. For instance, in Windows Explorer it's not enforced at all, and I think it's something like 10 years since I last used this feature. The default view is the icon one. The Mac OS X Finder uses a list mode, and you can browse one branch of the tree at a time.
When I am presented with the tree view, I find it cluttered, but maybe it has something to do with the choice of the initial nodes for the tree rather than anything else. Or maybe because I have to remember also at which level is the stuff I am searching for, introducing a third dimension - while I could achieve normally the same stuff by opening two separate windows. (By the way, someone remembers the "spatial window" mode forced upon users in GNOME 2.something? *THAT* was criminal).
The main reason I can think about justifying the need to put a file manager in tree mode, is for moving files in different directories; however the "Move to" and "Create directory" new features should address most of the use cases for that.
The tree view also has a number of usability issues; a notable one is that it requires some dexterity with the mouse, especially to click on the expanding triangle. For experts, this is not an issue, but for beginners and impaired people it's not nice. Also, it works bad with touch screens.
Nevertheless, I agree that keeping it should not be a huge problem. Dropping it seems to be just silly; it shouldn't take gazillions of lines of code to be maintained (else, there's something very wrong with nautilus...).
Incidentally: in 1992 I was still using tapes for loading programs, and BBS - not Internet - were the rage... We evolve, sometimes we get it right, sometimes not, but it's better trying than stagnating. After all, you still have MATE or XFCE if you prefer to use those, no? Installing them from the package manager is easy enough.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:35 UTC (Fri)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (11 responses)
Like, for example, say you are in the "build" directory of a source tree.
The tree view then tells you immediately that there is also a "source" directory and a "docs" directory, where they are, and that the program is in a folder with the source of other programs, and you immediately learn the name of those other programs, and can go visit them easily with a single click.
Personally, I don't think "Copy to" and "Move to" specifically needs a tree view, since you can just Ctrl+C, navigate to destination, Ctrl+V (well, until the GNOME 3 geniuses remove the Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V shortcuts, which I'm sure they will if not stopped before since they "don't work with touch").
Some people might prefer to drag or Ctrl+drag files to entries in the tree view though, which is another reason to not remove established features.
> The tree view also has a number of usability issues; a notable one is that it requires some dexterity with the mouse, especially to click on the expanding triangle.
Well, this is probably a good point, but the solution is to make the triangle bigger relative to the entry, expand the clickable area in the whitespace to the left and/or make the entries taller, not to remove the feature!
You don't cut off someone's head because he has an headache.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 6:23 UTC (Fri)
by Seegras (guest, #20463)
[Link]
Hmm, you mean, doing something stupid like not sending SIGINIT and LNEXT respectively?
I don't give a damn whether windows does it, but there are enough modifier keys on a keyboard that "copy" and "paste" can be assigned something else (like "command-C", as MacOS X does it).
Posted Aug 3, 2012 6:40 UTC (Fri)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link] (8 responses)
You got that wrong buddy. You _do_ _not_ want to see where you are at all. Never. Ever!
See, Gnome Shell comes with similar "improvements", such as removal of (at least) a decade old workspace switcher. This decade old workspace switcher could tell you where you were just by glancing at it. No action required at all. Just turn your eyes to where it sits and voilà - you know.
The new behaviour is far better, you see. You have to travel with the mouse up the top (nah - just use the keyboard - they'll tell you), then either wait or click, then travel to the right to actually see the workspaces, after they "slide out". Soo much better!
So, here is what you need to do. You need to work with one file at the time, using one program at the time. OK? Because, that's the new paradigm.
;-)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 7:05 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (2 responses)
STOP! Don't give them new ideas!
Posted Aug 3, 2012 18:55 UTC (Fri)
by sciurus (guest, #58832)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 18:59 UTC (Fri)
by sciurus (guest, #58832)
[Link]
Posted Aug 3, 2012 9:05 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (4 responses)
You have your current path displayed at the top of the window.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 9:56 UTC (Fri)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 18:56 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (2 responses)
In the case of copy and paste were you don't want to navigate to another directory in the original dialog; you must have at least two windows open. One with the path of the source and another with the path to the destination.
Tree view, while it may be a nice feature, is certainly not required to keep track of multiple paths in a graphical manner.
I am not defending the removal of the tree view or diminishing the desire of others to have such a feature. I am just saying that it's certainly not required to keep track of locations as I have not been aware that Nautilus supported tree view for many many years and it has never occurred to me that it's missing any functionality nor has it diminished my ability to copy and paste between different directories.
Posted Aug 4, 2012 1:22 UTC (Sat)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:20 UTC (Sat)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link]
Posted Aug 3, 2012 13:35 UTC (Fri)
by kh (guest, #19413)
[Link]
Posted Aug 3, 2012 7:14 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
You are looking in the wrong direction. There are two audiences: developers and so-called end-users (content-consumers, mostly). For developers tree view is absolutely vital (compare IDEs of 20 years ago which had no tree view or very rudimentary tree view and today's IDEs which invariably put tree view of the project as the cornerstone of it's look and feel). For end users it's still not as important (both iOS and Android hide even the fact that you have some filesystem on your device from casual user). Now, if GNOME removes such fundamental features then it's clear signal that it does not care about developers—but the problem here lies with the fact that there are no casual users on Linux: there are no games, no accounting programs, etc. The end result: system which is good for [almost] nobody. It clearly abandoned it's existing audience but it's built for an OS which makes it basically unusable for the Joe Average. The end result? Something bad for everybody. Either GNOME developers need to stop pretending they care about developers and start developing/embracing OS-for-the-content-consumers or they should return things like tree view which developer's value highly.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 1:29 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
For those people who like it, it's a very important feature.
Cheers,
Posted Aug 3, 2012 4:22 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (42 responses)
I personally like 'type ahead find' were I can just type what I want and search through things. But indeed with Nautilus it is less useful then it should be for numerous reasons, many of which are mentioned in the article. Hopefully they will have something to replace it with similar-but-better functionality.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 5:33 UTC (Fri)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link] (41 responses)
Works REALLY nice with my "work" subfolder. Not.
This is so unbelievably stupid that I have just apt-get removed Nautilus from my computer. I don't want it to be defiled with this POS.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 7:01 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (30 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 8:44 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (29 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 9:38 UTC (Fri)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link] (28 responses)
Rehdon
Posted Aug 3, 2012 12:00 UTC (Fri)
by billev2k (subscriber, #32054)
[Link] (27 responses)
Yes, search is really useful, and a good, cool, fast search feature is a great thing. And it is completely orthogonal to navigation within a directory. AND I'm willing to bet money that search is *much* less frequently desired than navigation, once one has found where they're working.
So, yes, add a great search! Even give a shortcut key and button to start it. But let me say "Nautilus, please find this for me".
Posted Aug 3, 2012 12:38 UTC (Fri)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link] (26 responses)
"Please keep comments technical and do not get personal by criticizing
Conveniently ignoring all the technical explanation and focusing on one sentence with the clear intent to discourage further elaboration of the issue.
Have seen that happen elsewhere, even here on LWN. Reading that kind of reaction makes me feel like I'm staring deep into the abyss...
Rehdon
Posted Aug 3, 2012 16:45 UTC (Fri)
by donbarry (guest, #10485)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:35 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link]
Anyway, your summary of how GNOME behaves is plain wrong.
If you think that you should be allowed to behave inappropriately, then you'll be warned and if you continue, banned. During the warning we make it explicitly clear that the opinion is of no interest, just the style of communication. Meaning: we don't care one bit if you're pro or con. I actually prefer con, because all kinds of "+1s" is just wasteful.
If you think that behaving inappropriately (e.g. insults) will make anyone receptive to what you're saying... then, cool, but don't try to do that on a GNOME server.
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:25 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (23 responses)
At GNOME Bugzilla we're not going to split the technical bits from the non constructive comments. If you cannot say things politely, you'll be warned and eventually banned. Now the comment about sticking to technical matters was a direct response to https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680118#c18. I don't see that as a valuable comment. Feel free to disagree on someone elses server.
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:40 UTC (Sat)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (4 responses)
Or just use someone else's software, so the problem doesn't come up in the first place...
BTW, since you appear to be someone involved with GNOME 3, how about starting some sort of motion to get rid of the Nautilus maintainer Cosimo Cecchi?
He's clearly totally incompetent: why don't you revoke his commit privileges and find someone else instead?
I mean, the idiocy of the maintainer is clearly the real "bug" there, and it's not possible to productively discuss technical issues if the ultimate judge of them is a moron.
Although I guess that since the disease probably runs deeper in the GNOME 3 leadership, it's likely going to be hard to find someone willing to work with the rest of those guys, so you probably should just get rid of all current maintainers and anyone else currently holding leadership positions.
I mean, it's not that much of an issue because all users will eventually switch away and GNOME will eventually die and be replaced, but it's a real pity to see GNOME, which once was THE free software desktop, go down this way.
Posted Aug 4, 2012 22:05 UTC (Sat)
by Company (guest, #57006)
[Link] (3 responses)
If feedback is filled to the brim with trolls, rudeness, insults and plain hate, there is only 2 ways to live with it:
In case you don't understand what I'm talking about: Talking about trying to "get rid of" someone or otherwise claiming someone is harmful certainly requires solid arguments. In particular it requires research into the whys of their behavior and having a clue what the problems actually are.
I sure wish there were people in here that had the audacity to get people like you to shut up.
Posted Aug 5, 2012 1:25 UTC (Sun)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (2 responses)
This applies to both type ahead find, sidebar tree view and the compact view he recently approved the removal of.
I think that's not what you want from a maintainer, ESPECIALLY when said project already has issues with having a sizeble fraction of its former GNOME 2 users no longer liking it and vocally criticizing it.
And no, McCann's post doesn't really explain at all why the changes are a good tradeoff: he incorrectly states that all use cases are preserved, fails to even consider how easily existing users and prospective users now using Windows will understand and cope with the changes and that "Sometimes is just not possible to add new functionality without first making some room" (which is just bullshit, as software can grow without limits).
Now, of course, if you can get him and other people acting similarly to change to more effective behavior, that's good, but otherwise replacing them seems advisable.
Especially if these people are paid to work full-time, since that means you can just hire a random good programmer instead and tell him to get up to speed on the project, and don't need to actually hope someone fills the spot on his own accord.
Posted Aug 5, 2012 9:54 UTC (Sun)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
(The changes sound quite horrible to me too, but that doesn't make your reasoning any less flawed.)
Posted Aug 5, 2012 10:52 UTC (Sun)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link]
At any rate, if both the previous and the new key binding schemes are useful, an option to choose between them can be added.
But that's probably not the case here, where keeping the current behavior and ADDING a search box on the top right and a keybind (Firefox uses Ctrl+K, not sure if it conflicts with something in Nautilus) seems by far the most reasonable course of action.
Posted Aug 4, 2012 6:50 UTC (Sat)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link] (7 responses)
That's not true: the comment I quoted is comment n. 2, and it's the first comment by a Gnome dev to the bug reporter. Your policy makes sense, and comment n. 18 adds only noise to the bug discussion (polluting a technical discussion thread is surely reason enough for a warning and even a ban), but I don't think you can say the same thing about the bug report itself, not at all. A warning about your "politeness reporting", and even a link to the Gnome conduct code as first comment by a dev sounds like a clear "we don't want to hear about this" message to me. Fortunately McCann answered and the discussion could be started, but as you can see the reporter was clearly disheartened by this reaction.
My 0,02€, feel free to disagree on any server.
Rehdon
Posted Aug 6, 2012 8:58 UTC (Mon)
by andre47 (guest, #86127)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Aug 7, 2012 5:59 UTC (Tue)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Aug 7, 2012 9:30 UTC (Tue)
by ewan (guest, #5533)
[Link] (3 responses)
I have to say, on a somewhat personal note, that this seems to be André's thing - he used to be involved in the same process in the Maemo project, treating bug reports as attacks to be fended off rather than contributions to be made use of.
Posted Aug 10, 2012 23:59 UTC (Fri)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link] (2 responses)
Ah, the venerable Mr. Klapper. I remember my one (and only) communication with this kind soul; I asked him a question that got me a ban on gnome bugzilla (for trolling). Do note, that the politeness is apparently not required from developers, bugmasters and other GNOME bureaucrats; Mr Klapper's answer to polite question about implementing SIEVE support in Evolution was rather curt: Nobody works on this and nobody plans to. Patches welcome.
It's a pity that many GNOME people seem to be organically unable to do something that was quite obvious to Philip Hazel (ex-maintainer of Exim): Writing/maintaining software is providing a service (even when
it's free). You need to listen to your customers if you want to
learn what features they need and thereby improve your product.
Of course, the customer isn't _always_ right, and often they
suggest specific implementations which don't fit into the "grand
scheme", but it's the input of ideas which is important. Even if
they seem at first to be "wrong", I've found it's always worth
thinking about them, even if you ultimate modify or reject them.
Posted Aug 11, 2012 8:55 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 13, 2012 1:39 UTC (Mon)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link]
The main difference, IMHO, lies in that Philip Hazel is a professional. The GNOME folks, on the other hand, have a long way to go until they start to match his level of professionality. Unfortunately they were handed a decision power before they got a chance to learn, and now we're seeing the same pattern repeated for the last few years: development is ruled by fiat, features are excised on a whim, many decisions seem to enjoy the quality of a revelation, dissenters are trolls, and presented use cases are dismissed (with users sometimes being told to stop trolling). Of course, the paradigms change every few years (or with every second maintainer), what does not change is the surety of the developers and the swiftness of banhammer wielded by the – very appropriately named – bugmasters. (Does anyone still remember the Great Spatial Paradigm being the One True Way?)
Posted Aug 7, 2012 6:36 UTC (Tue)
by jonasj (guest, #44344)
[Link]
Then it's funny that the bug tracker in question refers to you as "André Klapper [developer]" :-)
Posted Aug 5, 2012 23:52 UTC (Sun)
by ewan (guest, #5533)
[Link] (9 responses)
No, it wasn't. It was comment #2, the first response to the original bug reporter, who had already stuck to technical matters. It was a blatant attempt to derail the report and squash legitimate criticism. Your dishonest response here does neither you, nor GNOME, any favours at all.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 9:51 UTC (Mon)
by cladisch (✭ supporter ✭, #50193)
[Link] (7 responses)
It was a direct response to "Is there anybody here that stops and thinks whether everything that Jon McCann thinks up is a good idea?"
Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:31 UTC (Mon)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link] (6 responses)
Try this on for size: "Is there anybody whose responsibility it is to review whether the changes recommended by designers are good for the application?" Is that better? Although I can't see the value in not naming the person, I suppose this sounds more politically correct.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 16:57 UTC (Mon)
by Company (guest, #57006)
[Link] (5 responses)
Both the original question and your rephrasing qualify as that. One uses the name, the other uses "the designers".
The correct question would be:
And that sounds very much like a rhetorical question to me.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 17:45 UTC (Mon)
by nye (subscriber, #51576)
[Link] (2 responses)
> Both the original question and your rephrasing qualify as that.
Posting a link that refutes your own claim is a pretty poor show if you're trying to get others to share your opinion.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 0:11 UTC (Tue)
by Company (guest, #57006)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 7, 2012 10:35 UTC (Tue)
by nye (subscriber, #51576)
[Link]
Posted Aug 7, 2012 10:50 UTC (Tue)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (1 responses)
Although a more pertinent question would be "is there anyone outside the GNOME clique that checks whether the maintainers of GNOME applications do a good job?"
And that's indeed rhetorical, since clearly there's no one checking.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 23:32 UTC (Tue)
by Company (guest, #57006)
[Link]
Also, there are various instances outside of GNOME that check whether the maintainers of GNOME applications do a good job. In fact, you are doing that in this thread. It's a side effect of open development.
What you're really after is this: Who is doing anything when GNOME developers mess up?
And that is happening. Those people enjoy Unity, KDE and XFCE. At least if you believe what they're writing everywhere.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:04 UTC (Mon)
by colo (guest, #45564)
[Link]
I'm afraid GNOME's fate is already sealed, and it's not a pretty one.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 10:35 UTC (Fri)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 13:41 UTC (Fri)
by efraim (guest, #65977)
[Link] (4 responses)
Hell, I did not even notice this operation had search results previously. Like I did not notice mousing over to file or moving my hand to a steering wheel had search results. It was absolutely instinctive.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:07 UTC (Fri)
by thebluesgnr (guest, #37963)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 20:55 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (2 responses)
I have 500 files in there.
How do I, using the new search method, go down the files that start with 'n' and then navigate up and down to see the files that start with l, m, o, and p? Using almost any file manager it's a lightening fast affair.
How can I do that quickly in Nautilus with out forcing myself to visually scroll up and down the directory to find 'n' manually?
Posted Aug 4, 2012 13:09 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 24, 2012 20:16 UTC (Fri)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link]
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:38 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (3 responses)
Suggest to give a bit of leeway to unstable versions. They're called unstable versions for a reason. Do file bugs of course (in case they haven't been filed, else cc to the existing bug).
Posted Aug 5, 2012 14:20 UTC (Sun)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link] (1 responses)
And if (or should I say "When"?) it's not? Will the changes all be reverted at that time, or will the "fix" be to wait and see if it can be made faster and/or for people who have a problem stop complaining?
> Suggest to give a bit of leeway to unstable versions.
Leeway requires trust and that, I think, is something that is in short supply where GNOME is concerned.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 21:53 UTC (Tue)
by zlynx (guest, #2285)
[Link]
When indexing daemons can make an 8 core system with a SSD feel like a 486, they had better not be required because they are going to be disabled and removed pronto, unless the desktop environment is simply abandoned instead.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 23:30 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
What's next, mandatory Facebook accounts? Or perhaps DBUS over Twitter protocol?
Posted Aug 3, 2012 5:34 UTC (Fri)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link]
Of course, again, this is extremely basic stuff, and honestly, a UI designer that cannot realize this needs to take up gardening instead (where they'll probably be as bad, but at least they are going to ruin their own garden only).
Posted Aug 3, 2012 11:02 UTC (Fri)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 2:28 UTC (Sat)
by ovitters (guest, #27950)
[Link] (1 responses)
E.g. on my GNOME blog I only not approve non constructive comments. I don't care if someone is positive or negative. Only if they're constructive (basically: personal insults don't get approved).
So your statement that all blogs are censored is factually wrong.
Posted Aug 4, 2012 3:12 UTC (Sat)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link]
In such a situation, publicly denouncing the incompetence (and sometimes utter folly and idiocy) of the maintainers is the only remaining option, and I guess that's what you consider "personal insults".
Posted Aug 3, 2012 11:43 UTC (Fri)
by grantingram (guest, #18390)
[Link]
Posted Aug 3, 2012 13:31 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (24 responses)
Am I the only one who never uses a file browser? I find them much more trouble than they're worth. I prefer living in an xterm and using tools like find to find things.
Am I a living dinosaur? :)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 13:47 UTC (Fri)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link]
Rehdon
Posted Aug 3, 2012 14:48 UTC (Fri)
by mpr22 (subscriber, #60784)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 16:58 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
I guess that explains why I'm cheep, too. :)
Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:25 UTC (Fri)
by endecotp (guest, #36428)
[Link] (4 responses)
No, you're not.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 21:01 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (3 responses)
Commandline is fast and you have proper amount of control.
However sometimes you want to have visual representation of the files and then GUIs are nice. And other people have no issue with using them and are quite adept.
Posted Aug 4, 2012 13:15 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 19:33 UTC (Sat)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
Posted Aug 5, 2012 0:20 UTC (Sun)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link]
Posted Aug 3, 2012 15:46 UTC (Fri)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link]
I do the same, although I use gnome-terminal, which is what I consider to be "the good part of Gnome." They can keep their shell and apps, but thanks for the terminal program.
Posted Aug 3, 2012 17:58 UTC (Fri)
by bats999 (guest, #70285)
[Link]
Posted Aug 3, 2012 20:17 UTC (Fri)
by neilbrown (subscriber, #359)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Aug 5, 2012 20:20 UTC (Sun)
by endecotp (guest, #36428)
[Link] (4 responses)
Automount the SD card, with a short timeout. Then just cd out of the card's filesystem (e.g. "cd", which you were going to do anyway), reach over and pull out the card.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 3:53 UTC (Mon)
by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 6, 2012 17:47 UTC (Mon)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Aug 6, 2012 18:31 UTC (Mon)
by hummassa (subscriber, #307)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 7, 2012 16:12 UTC (Tue)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Cheers,
Posted Aug 3, 2012 22:06 UTC (Fri)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link]
Posted Aug 4, 2012 6:30 UTC (Sat)
by speedster1 (guest, #8143)
[Link]
Posted Aug 5, 2012 14:32 UTC (Sun)
by sorpigal (guest, #36106)
[Link] (4 responses)
You are not alone. When I first came to Linux there were *no* fast file managers except possibly the norton commander clones (which I just don't like). Of the more explorer-like managers the fastest was gmc, but it was still slower than windows explorer had been on the same hardware. It was so incredibly painful to do any of the simple file management activities that I was accustomed to doing via GUI file managers that I took up using xterms for my file management, which forced me to learn command line tools more thoroughly.
By the time any good options existed I couldn't go back to GUI managers and now I just never use them. Today there are only two good choices of explorer-style file manager anyway: pcmanfm and dolphin. Everything else is brain damaged, horribly slow, or both. The best Linux file manager I've ever seen was endevour2, but it seems to have fallen off the internet at some point.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 9:02 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 6, 2012 9:29 UTC (Mon)
by viro (subscriber, #7872)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Aug 6, 2012 14:26 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Aug 24, 2012 20:42 UTC (Fri)
by JanC_ (guest, #34940)
[Link]
Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:08 UTC (Mon)
by njwhite (guest, #51848)
[Link]
Posted Aug 4, 2012 8:37 UTC (Sat)
by Pawlerson (guest, #74136)
[Link] (21 responses)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 9:30 UTC (Sat)
by liw (subscriber, #6379)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Aug 4, 2012 13:52 UTC (Sat)
by Rehdon (guest, #45440)
[Link]
Posted Aug 5, 2012 8:52 UTC (Sun)
by Pawlerson (guest, #74136)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Aug 5, 2012 10:14 UTC (Sun)
by cmccabe (guest, #60281)
[Link] (3 responses)
It might explain why your post has caused so much unintentional hilarity.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:47 UTC (Mon)
by Pawlerson (guest, #74136)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Aug 7, 2012 0:55 UTC (Tue)
by cmccabe (guest, #60281)
[Link] (1 responses)
> Thanks to Ubuntu gnome become quite important, but it seems
How can you argue that "thanks to Ubuntu gnome become quite important [sic]" when Ubuntu doesn't ship GNOME3 by default? Similarly, how can you argue that "Ubuntu developers life" will become a nightmare because of GNOME3? Have you heard of this thing called Unity? That is what Ubuntu developers are working on, not GNOME3.
Have you even used GNOME3, or are you just using Unity without knowing the difference? This is a serious question.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 1:53 UTC (Tue)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
[Link]
Posted Aug 4, 2012 16:22 UTC (Sat)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link] (13 responses)
The unhappiness didn't start until Gnome 2 arrived, and Ubuntu didn't happen until after that.
Posted Aug 4, 2012 20:06 UTC (Sat)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (5 responses)
Now people are blasting gnome devs again because I guess now gnome 2 is all of a sudden wonderful now the gnome devs are no longer working on it.
People need to cut the f-ing drama already. It isn't helping there case and I do not blame gnome devs being sensitive to 'tone' considering the massive shit they take every time they make a minor change. When people take every mention of gnome in any article on any website as a opportunity to act like children and say that the sky is falling it makes it really difficult to tell what is legit complaints and what is just people fuming with some alternate motive.
Posted Aug 5, 2012 2:44 UTC (Sun)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link] (3 responses)
This is completely misleading. Gnome 2 was at very high version when it was discontinued, which means that there were many iterations before it became good and mature. This actually shows that people were objective. Once the product became good, they praised it.
> People need to cut the f-ing drama already. It isn't helping there case and I do not blame gnome devs being sensitive to 'tone' considering the massive shit they take every time they make a minor change.
Minor change?
How is introduction of overview a minor change? How is complete lack of visibility a minor change? How is more cumbersome mouse/graphical UI a minor change? How is total inability to customise a minor change?
> When people take every mention of gnome in any article on any website as a opportunity to act like children and say that the sky is falling it makes it really difficult to tell what is legit complaints and what is just people fuming with some alternate motive.
Easy. Just _listen_ to _objectively_ argued complaints. Ignore the rest.
What infuriates me the most is "philosophical" nonsense regarding UI design being pushed by Gnome developers.
Example of a "philosophical" goal: minimise distraction. Sure, some people like to avoid distraction. Fine. Give them the ability to do that. Some others thrive on it. They want lots of small windows and notifications flying everywhere. They are digressive multi-taskers. So, give them _that_.
So, instead of minimal distraction "philosophy", there should be a purely functional "desired flexibility" goal. Then users would not complain. Just like they stopped by the end of Gnome 2 series, when everyone could do their tasks, while making their desktop the way they wanted it to be.
Posted Aug 5, 2012 4:36 UTC (Sun)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (2 responses)
So when the Gnome Devs attempt to do that by telling people to stick to technical issues in bugtracks and filter blog posts don't go around accusing them of purposely filtering input to create some sort of isolation bubble of positive feedback.
Posted Aug 5, 2012 4:52 UTC (Sun)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link] (1 responses)
However, I do think that many Gnome developers do not accept or listen to valid, objective and constructive criticism of real usability issues they introduced in version 3.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 16:56 UTC (Tue)
by walters (subscriber, #7396)
[Link]
The most important thing, cheesy as it sounds, is just to try to stay constructive.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 16:02 UTC (Mon)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link]
I'm not sure what you mean. Releases prior to 1.0.53 were unstable, to the point of being unusable, but it worked well enough after that.
From a design standpoint it was a bit incohesive, but I prefer that to what came after.
Posted Aug 5, 2012 8:53 UTC (Sun)
by Pawlerson (guest, #74136)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Aug 5, 2012 21:07 UTC (Sun)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link] (5 responses)
Counting linux usage is a pretty difficult thing to get correct. Counting specific desktop environment usage even more so. So if you are going to be making comparative claims as to market penetration, please describe the analysis process and data sources you are using to generate the numbers. Without some sort of published methodology, any the credibility of any claim with regard to market impact is difficult to assess.
-jef
Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:09 UTC (Mon)
by fb (guest, #53265)
[Link] (3 responses)
IIRC the Linux Journal popularity polls consistently gave KDE more than 2/3 of the Linux desktop users preferences. Those polls were not perfect, but AFAIK they were the best we had to measure project popularity.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:28 UTC (Mon)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (1 responses)
And that's why the destruction of GNOME by their current maintainers is so irksome: they devastated the trademark that once was the reference for the free software community, and are the cause of the current unprecedented fragmentation of efforts and mindshare into XFCE, Mate, Cinnamon, Unity and KDE.
In addition to that, they also fragmented the underlying technology panorama by introducing a GTK 3 that isn't a smooth upgrade from GTK 2 (e.g. GTK 2 themes don't work with GTK 3), and introduced Clutter, which due to the OpenGL requirement cannot currently be used in low-overhead virtualization and thus cannot be used in a non-niche desktop.
Overall, the GNOME 3 effort has probably been the biggest setback for the Linux desktop ever, a true catastrophe without equals.
Posted Aug 7, 2012 0:14 UTC (Tue)
by bojan (subscriber, #14302)
[Link]
Yeah, the latest and rather visible cause for sure. I was hoping that with the introduction of freedesktop.org, the fragmentation would diminish. No such luck for now, I'm afraid... :-(
Posted Aug 6, 2012 16:03 UTC (Mon)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link]
Thanks for the LJ reader's choice awards reference.
Looking back at the pre 2006 readers choice awards, KDE was indeed consistently polling higher
2000:
2001:
2002:
2003:
2004:
2005
Posted Aug 6, 2012 10:56 UTC (Mon)
by Pawlerson (guest, #74136)
[Link]
Posted Aug 6, 2012 8:14 UTC (Mon)
by bronson (subscriber, #4806)
[Link] (1 responses)
> I already expressed my opinion on this - I don't see type-ahead find coming back.
Oof. Maybe Cosmo has one hell of a trick up his sleeve. What he describes sounds large, unreliable, and not very well thought out.
It seems Gnome's UI difficulties have only just begun. Owell, hope it all works out.
Posted Aug 6, 2012 11:04 UTC (Mon)
by Pawlerson (guest, #74136)
[Link]
Posted Aug 6, 2012 16:44 UTC (Mon)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link] (3 responses)
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Linux-Mint-team-forks-Nautilus-1660545.html
Posted Aug 9, 2012 18:43 UTC (Thu)
by slashdot (guest, #22014)
[Link] (2 responses)
I wonder if that's going to be enough for Red Hat managers to finally realize what sorts of braindead morons they employ as GNOME maintainers and sack them all.
Probably not though, I guess they'll only realize when their customers tell them once they try a new RHEL release with GNOME 3.
Posted Aug 9, 2012 20:07 UTC (Thu)
by jake (editor, #205)
[Link] (1 responses)
thanks,
jake
Posted Aug 9, 2012 20:25 UTC (Thu)
by viro (subscriber, #7872)
[Link]
McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
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- Software rendered
- Classic mode
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I just installed Mate and deleted most of Gnome 3 and Xfce. It feels *so good*. On my work machine I had been delaying various upgrades because their dependencies would have switched me from 2 to 3. I just switched it over to Mate and it feels great. (I really tried to like Xfce; sorry, xfcers.)
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mateconftool-2 -s /desktop/mate/interface/gtk_key_theme -t string Emacs
did.
mateconftool-2 -s /apps/caja/preferences/show_desktop -t bool false
I don't know how iceweasel knows whether to use Mate or Gnome preferences.
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crshbndct says:
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I just want to say that these changes look good. Ignore the non-contructive criticism. Gnome bashing has become popular amongst the GNU/Linux community, and yet, everyone who forces themself to use it for a few weeks falls in love. Its inevitable.
Cyberax, in the light of your insight, this comment under the original article really made my day.
I love gnome shell. Apart from that, are they kidding? I mean, contacts still don't work with dark themes (they even have the css patch in the bugzilla, but nobody cared to apply it). Evolution UI is terrible. Empathy support for chats is ridiculously bad. GS still have a ton of bugs. But the focus of GNOME devs? Breaking Nautilus.
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As to the claim that those that stick with it love it -- that's quite a selection effect!
Perhaps a test here to see if a claim of some change in software is influenced by this effect would be to look at the claim and see if it would work just as well if the claim were changed to 'our new user interface whips users, tears at them with metal teeth, and drips acid on their skins'.
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report a bug, if it gets closed with "works as intended", then it's working as intended.
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The tragedy of the Linux desktop is that loads of people use Gnome/KDE for work, but no one managed to turn these professional users into customers.
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Why are developers and users different people? I think the real problem, and the one I can least understand, is that the developers do not use their own applications. That is the only conclusion I can draw from the butchering that is going on.
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This clearly wasn't done with GNOME, or the target is wrong. If all of that research and testing leads to GNOME3, then the process is wrong, the execution is wrong or the conclusions are ignored.
In the case of GNOME, we are.
This is the theory, but is it done? If this practice were followed the results would be palatable to me; they aren't, so it wasn't.
Your analogy is backwards. Designers are the air traffic controllers, developers are the pilots.
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I'm a KDE fanboi, but I do wonder why every post about GNOME brings out the drama kings and queensMcCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
You may remember the outcry when KDE4 came out...
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KDE: "Yeah, we know, we're fixing it, hold tight"
Gnome: "No, that's deliberate, you just don't understand why we're right and you're wrong. You should work on that."
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Wol
The main excuse by the developers for enabling it was "but it'll make using kmail faster..."
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https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=280750
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User: "Wah! It's broken!"
KDE: "Yeah, we know, we're fixing it, hold tight"
User: »Wah! It's broken!«
KDE: »Yeah, we know, but can't be bothered just now because it is imperative to get the new LOLcat plasmoid finished first. Also, the developer of your broken code left, and the program in question must be rewritten from scratch anyway because nobody here understands how it works. Feel free to do it yourself if you're in a hurry.«
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With regard to Amarok
Wol
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And the tree view was quite hideous to be honest. The main reason you wanted that, is if you need to move files across different folders; now you should be able to do so by the new "Move to..." feature.
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>
> This is WRONG: typing must result in selecting the first file in the current view/folder that has the typed text as a prefix (or perhaps anywhere in the name, although that differs from Windows Explorer).
McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
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> tree view, since you can just Ctrl+C, navigate to destination, Ctrl+V
> (well, until the GNOME 3 geniuses remove the Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V shortcuts,
> which I'm sure they will if not stopped before since they "don't work
> with touch").
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I don't know if it is so fundamental. For instance, in Windows Explorer it's not enforced at all, and I think it's something like 10 years since I last used this feature. The default view is the icon one. The Mac OS X Finder uses a list mode, and you can browse one branch of the tree at a time.
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Wol
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particular developers for changes that you describe rather generically."
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Conveniently ignoring all the technical explanation and focusing on one sentence with the clear intent to discourage further elaboration of the issue.
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(1) Ignore it.
(2) Don't take it serious.
Which is the primary reason why feedback from sites like LWN rarely makes its way into the GNOME community.
McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
1. Removes an already implemented highly established feature also present in Windows Explorer and most other applications where it makes sense to have it
2. Replaces it with nothing or with a feature with an UI that is different from all other similar software and that cannot cover all use cases as well or better (as argued by users)
3. Doesn't provide a detailed rationale of the exceptional circumstance resulting in some great advantage in doing this that offsets all the disadavntages
4. Causes several users to complain about the above
5. Doesn't either reconsider, announce he's thinking about it or explain exactly why the decision is good despite the huge negatives
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"Sometimes is just not possible to add new functionality without first making some room" (which is just bullshit, as software can grow without limits).
Your keyboard has an infinite number of keys on it? The room he was talking about was room in the user interface, not room in the code. You can't both have plain alphanumeric typing do a search-names-in-current-dir and search-subtree-recursively. That's a shortage of room in this sense.
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>
> No, it wasn't. It was comment #2, the first response to the original bug reporter, who had already stuck to technical matters.
McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
Sounds like a purely technical question, to me. Would it have been somehow less offensive if he had rephrased to omit mention of the name of the person who thought up the idea that lead to the technically horrible change?
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"Is there anybody whose responsibility it is to review whether recommended changes are good for the application?"
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My 'work' folder has about 12 million files in pretty deep trees. There's no way to search them fast enough. And I'm not running any indexing service (not even the venerable updatedb) nor I'm going to run them. Is it going to become mandatory?
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https://mail.gnome.org/archives/nautilus-list/2012-August...
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File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
Do you have feathers and a beak? If so, you're a living dinosaur :)
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
However I must admit that there is only one button that I actually use with any regularity - the 'unmount' button for the SD card that I'm about to pull out. Clicking that really is quicker than typing "sudo umount /media/*" ... though I guess I could create an alias.
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
Wol
Image and movie thumbnail previews are nice. Pity that xfce's thumbnail generator, tumblerd, has a nasty habit of eating up my cpus and preventing unmounts.
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
File Browser? Who needs it?
Try File Browser? Who needs it?
zenity --file-selection or zenity --list for that…
(Or use dialog if you want to stay in your terminal.)
File Browser? Who needs it?
McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
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> some stupid morons started to do stupid things. Do they want
> gnome to become irrelevant (like in the pre-Ubuntu times) or
> do they just want to turn Ubuntu developers life into some nightmare?
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RHL top distro
KDE top DE
RHL top distro
KDE top DE
Mandake top distro (RHL second)
KDE top DE
Debian top distro (RHL second)
KDE top DE
Debian top distro (Mandrake second, Gentoo third)
KDE top DE
Ubuntu top distro (CentOS second, Fedora third)
KDE top DE
McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
McCann: Cross Cut [the future of Nautilus]
This story has another chapter:
Linux Mint team forks Nautilus
Linux Mint team forks Nautilus
Insults aren't welcome here
Insults aren't welcome here