Garzik: An Andre To Remember

Posted Jul 28, 2012 12:48 UTC (Sat) by stevenb (guest, #11536)
In reply to: Garzik: An Andre To Remember by rsidd
Parent article: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

FWIW, I don't think it has anything to do with being thin-skinned. Having a personality disorder doesn't make one think-skinned, but ill.

Garzik: An Andre To Remember

Posted Jul 28, 2012 14:31 UTC (Sat) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (9 responses)

I didn't know him but we have one person's claim above that he was 'mentally ill'. My point is depression exists on a wide spectrum of states, and many depressive people are otherwise by no means mentally ill. Also, the Linux-related stuff happened a while ago and we don't know what happened more recently in his life.

My point was simply that he was not fairly treated, and if he himself thought so, that was not paranoia. If indeed he was mentally ill, it is sad (and there is no stigma in it), but let us not jump to conclusions.

Garzik: An Andre To Remember

Posted Jul 28, 2012 14:53 UTC (Sat) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

Ps - just to be clear, the events that I refer to occurred before Jeff's reported telephone talks with Andre. Jeff may have seen this as part of the normal process, Andre may have seen it all as targeted at him personally. Jeff may have been right, but to me, Andre's reaction was understandable even if he was not 'mentally ill'. In fact I find it remarkable how cooperative and helpful Andre was despite how poorly he was treated.

Garzik: An Andre To Remember

Posted Jul 28, 2012 17:45 UTC (Sat) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (7 responses)

He killed himself. Although suicide can be a rational choice under some unusual circumstances it's most often connected with severe mental illness, such as depression or schizophrenia.

Garzik mentions one thing that's far more important than the others: Seek professional help. Depression is treatable, and like many illnesses the best outcomes are associated with early detection and treatment. If your healthcare is tied to your employment it's even more important to talk to a doctor straight away, if the depression prevents you from working you may lose the medical cover that could otherwise have helped you.

That also means the rest of us are responsible for reducing the stigma associated with treatment for psychiatric problems. If treatment is stigmatised then people will try to do without, so we're effectively pressuring them to get /more/ sick.

Garzik: An Andre To Remember

Posted Jul 29, 2012 2:29 UTC (Sun) by thedevil (guest, #32913) [Link] (2 responses)

"If your healthcare is tied to your employment it's even more important to talk to a doctor straight away, if the depression prevents you from working you may lose the medical cover that could otherwise have helped you."

Isn't that very fact depressing?

Sorry if this sounds frivolous; I am planning a more serious comment.

Garzik: An Andre To Remember

Posted Jul 29, 2012 6:27 UTC (Sun) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (1 responses)

> Isn't that very fact depressing?
So it is. It's why healthcare isn't tied to your employment in civilized countries.

Garzik: An Andre To Remember

Posted Aug 1, 2012 10:51 UTC (Wed) by Felix.Braun (guest, #3032) [Link]

I think that this particular expression of political conviction was uncalledfor in this context.

Not only professionals can help

Posted Jul 29, 2012 10:18 UTC (Sun) by t4680 (guest, #85997) [Link] (1 responses)

It's important to seek professional help, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from doing so. However, if you know someone who is mentally ill, it's important to bear in mind that there is a big difference between physical and mental health professionals:

A physical doctor both knows more and can do more than a lay person.
A mental health professional knows more, but *can do less*.

What do I mean by that? Well, physical health professionals have access to a huge range of interventions. There is a wide range of drugs, surgical operations, etc. Usually, if someone you know is physically sick, the best thing you can do is see they get to a doctor, and there is often little else that you can do.

Mental health is not like that. There are only a few drugs, by comparison. Surgery is not usually relevant. What mental health professionals can do for the most part is talk to the patient. And they can usually only do this for an hour a week, or less.

If Andre had been seeing a professional, they might have tried to tell him that his work was obviously respected, but this could not substitute for Jeff's actual respect for him in the their conversations. There are many simple things that mental health professionals cannot do, that a lay person can:
- Invite them out for lunch with some mates, or introduce them to new people
- help with a hobby or work, or chores
- Waste time just talking about pointless fun stuff

Many mental illnesses have their origin in how a person has been treated by others, and even for those which are genetic in nature, the people around them can have a big influence on its course. So please, if you know someone who is mentally ill, don't assume that it's out of your hands, down to the professionals. Don't assume that there's nothing you can do.

Not only professionals can help

Posted Jul 30, 2012 9:43 UTC (Mon) by acooks (guest, #49539) [Link]

You make some good points here, but I'm afraid it's not at all simple. As someone who has struggled with depression for the past 15 years and currently trying to help a friend who's struggling, I think my opinion might be relevant.

Depressed people don't necessarily know that they're depressed until it's pointed out to them. It's a slippery slope and even if you've been through it before you may not realise you're in trouble until the downward spiral is well under way. So, if you have negative thoughts about yourself, your situation or the society you live in for more than a few days in two weeks, speak up!

Depressed people struggle to accept that their rational thought is compromised and will find all sorts of reasons to stay in that state. Here are some I've used:
1. "anti-depressants are just a band-aid and won't fix the problem"
2. "anti-depressants will make me feel numb and affect my ability to think clearly"
3. "my logic is fine, it's everyone else who are blind to the problems"
4. "counselling is just a waste of time and money, because there's no guarantee it will help and it's not even in the counsellor's financial interest for me to get better".
5. "if my employer finds out that I'm getting counselling, people won't take me seriously at work or it could affect my future in some way"
6. "I don't want to have this weakness and I refuse to be judged or have my judgement questioned"
7. "this is my problem and I'll fix it myself - I don't need anyone's help"

In my experience, to beat depression you have to:
1. Accept that things really can get better.
2. Realise that getting better is in your own hands and that nobody can "fix" you.
3. Believe that if you follow the plan, it will get better.
4. Ask for support to stick with the plan. The people you feel you're a burden on would much rather help you than see you suffer and feel powerless to help you.
5. Stop punishing yourself and living in your own head.
6. Stop comparing your own shortcomings to other people's strengths.

Practical, everyday things to do - A Plan:
1. Write that thought down. Writing forces you to get your thoughts in order and makes it easier to look at the facts.
2. Get an external point of view on each of the issues you struggle with from someone you respect. If you're insecure about technical aspects of your work, speak frankly to someone technical.
3. Do some physical activity at least twice a week. Even a 5 minute walk is a start. Just keep increasing it as you feel comfortable. It will become less effort and you'll find more time for it as you improve. Solitary activities are not as effective, because it's easier to say "not today" if nobody's waiting.
4. Set small targets and acknowledge the small steps.
5. Look at the lives of other people. Depression doesn't mean you won't achieve anything. It means you're not giving yourself credit for what you've achieved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_major_de...

If anyone who'd like to talk, my lwn account name is also my gmail account name.

Garzik: An Andre To Remember

Posted Jul 29, 2012 15:58 UTC (Sun) by SecretEuroPatentAgentMan (guest, #66656) [Link] (1 responses)

> Seek professional help.

This is good advice. Regrettably there are many problems here. First off men tend not to go to medical professionals even if very ill, and if they do it is usually the SO that makes sure he gets help. Why this is so I do not know but I hear it is part of human nature.

Secondly the human mind is enormously complex and not infrequently even well experienced professionals do not find what is wrong. Some times they discover that it is a case of several issues. Some times the experts disagree on the situation. One small comfort is that there is a lot of development, just a few decades ago things like ADHD or Asperger syndrome were hardly recognised nor treated.

In the end what happens is that they turn to their friends for help or contact, few of which can be expected to have professional knowledge in these fields. And there are quite a few around us with varying degrees of problems; I have heard the statistics and it is rather disturbing and occasionally even growing as new aspects of the human minds are recognized.

The only thing we realistically can do is to treat our fellow humans well. And that alone will go a long way to help.

Garzik: An Andre To Remember

Posted Jul 29, 2012 21:18 UTC (Sun) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> The only thing we realistically can do is to treat our fellow humans well. And that alone will go a long way to help.

Such good advice!

And when we feel we are being treated poorly, assume it is not deliberate but accidental (which is usually the case I find) and respond with compassion, not anger.