Supporting 64-bit ARM systems
Supporting 64-bit ARM systems
Posted Jul 11, 2012 2:45 UTC (Wed) by ringerc (subscriber, #3071)In reply to: Supporting 64-bit ARM systems by smoogen
Parent article: Supporting 64-bit ARM systems
They implemented ia32 emulation, but so slowly that they'd have been better off not doing so and requiring software emulation with a few helper instructions from the outset.
Because of the big-end-of-town focus, most of the commercial software for Itanium only came in special price-gouging editions, further inflating its already uncompetitive costs.
More importantly, they were really expensive parts to make and were based on a completely new very long instruction word design that turned out not to perform half as well in reality as it did in theory. It also relied on compilers to do a huge amount of work, but the compilers just weren't ready for it. They had huge caches (esp. for the time), low yields, and insanely expensive packaging with complex daughterboards. There was no such thing as a low-cost, entry-level Itanium system; the whole thing was a push-it-down-from-the-top big iron and big clusters concept.
'cos, y'know, that's exactly how ia32 came to dominance over SPARC, PPC, Alpha, etc, right?
It sounds like ARM64 is closer to "pure" x86_64 than Itanium/IA64; it's a major cleanup and extension of ARM32, but recognisably related.
I doubt ARM will screw this up, not least because they will've learned from the Itanium fiasco. They're sure to have low cost entry-level parts available directly or via licensees from the beginning. They'll be be focused on keeping costs low, yields high, and porting relatively easy. I'd be surprised if some of the changes in ARM64 weren't to get rid of hard- or expensive- to implement instructions and other simplifications for easier manufacturing.
ARM also have another advantage: there isn't much of a legacy base of binary software that people expect to be portable to new arches. It's the norm to have to rebuild binaries for different ARM sub-arches. They don't have Intel's problem of people expecting to be able to run their 1981 copy of QBase on their new Itanium server.
Posted Jul 11, 2012 2:59 UTC (Wed)
by ringerc (subscriber, #3071)
[Link] (1 responses)
For an example of insanely expensive packaging, check this image of an Itanium 2 CPU assembly out. Compare to this Intel Pentium III Coppermine CPU package. It isn't hard to see part of why Itanium struggled even before AMD came along with AMD64 and finished it off. Have a look at the Intel price list for some of the Itanium family. Do you really think they're that much better than a Core i7 or the Xeon variants? I don't. Sure, those are current prices not historical ones from the time when itanium used to be almost-relevant, but the prices then were at least as bad. Also, notice how the TDP ratings on those parts are absolutely nuts? Some of those parts dissapate 180W and cost nearly $4k in bulk! You aren't going to get many of those into a rack, not least because the CPU packages are so physically huge as well. Now there are further disincentives like the lack of AESNI instructions in Itanium.
Posted Jul 11, 2012 8:23 UTC (Wed)
by jengelh (guest, #33263)
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Well, it was about the P4-Netburst time, so the TDP is... accurate :)
Posted Jul 11, 2012 11:29 UTC (Wed)
by kskatrh (guest, #73410)
[Link] (2 responses)
The number I've heard bandied about was $15K for the some of the first Aarch64 boards/systems. Perhaps that was for one of the big Calxeda boxes, fully populated?
Contrast that with a $60 gooseberry or a $45 Raspberry Pi (if my order ever gets filled.)
I'll be much more interested when I can get something for <$200.
Posted Jul 11, 2012 13:55 UTC (Wed)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
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I think you are comparing apples and oranges. I don't believe in $15K Aarch64 system for a nanosecond. Boards, sure, this is about what you can expect from brand-new architecture. I remember how we've developed software for $5 cryptogadget (that's retail price, bulk prices were about 2-3 times smaller and CPU itself was well below $0.5). Development board for a CPU was $5K.
Posted Jul 11, 2012 16:35 UTC (Wed)
by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523)
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I fondly remember paying several thousand dollars for development boards, with retail prices of the end-user hardware below $200.
Posted Jul 18, 2012 0:10 UTC (Wed)
by plugwash (subscriber, #29694)
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Supporting 64-bit ARM systems
Supporting 64-bit ARM systems
As for the prices, the enterprise segment is never understandable to mortal users: the $4k price tag does not even include a next-day replacement service.
Supporting 64-bit ARM systems
> via licensees from the beginning. They'll be be focused on keeping costs
> low,
Supporting 64-bit ARM systems
The number I've heard bandied about was $15K for the some of the first Aarch64 boards/systems.
Supporting 64-bit ARM systems
Supporting 64-bit ARM systems
Maybe that is true of the microcontroller variants of ARM and of kernel code but userland code on linux tends to keep running fine on newer versions of arm. Debian armel will run happilly on everything from V4t right through to v7.