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SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Groklaw has posted the text of SCO's motion asking for dismissal of Red Hat's suit. The bulk of the motion concerns itself with the claim that SCO has never actually threatened Red Hat. But then they get into wider issues... "Indeed, SCO's Public Statements are also part of a wider debate in the technology and music industries about the scope of intellectual property protection in a digital age. As open source software development becomes prevalent and digital music can be downloaded for free, many people are simply ignoring copyright and patent laws. Many public commentators recognize this disintegration of property rights as a danger to our economic system. In a small way, SCO's Public Statements are part of this debate."

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SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 14:39 UTC (Thu) by ccchips (subscriber, #3222) [Link]

What in the world does any of that "wider issues" business have to do with a motion to deny Red Hat's lawsuit? The music and movie industries can play recordings of both the pirated and original material and *prove* there is copying then allow the copyright violator to remove the offending material, while SCO is doing everything in its power to prevent any such actions with Linux.

But, again, what does any of that have to do with their motion to deny Red Hat their lawsuit?

So SCO is basicly giving up....

Posted Sep 18, 2003 14:40 UTC (Thu) by simlo (guest, #10866) [Link]

I think this have been noticed this before here on lwn.net but let me just take it up again:

If ever SCO wants a license from you for using RedHat Linux cite this:

"Red Hat, however, has never had any license from SCO providing access to SCO's trade secrets or other confidential information and, to SCO's knowledge, has not stolen or otherwise misappropriated any of SCO's trade secrets or confidential information. "

It will be damn hard for them to argue that you violate the their IP if RedHat doesn't!!

Anybody else: RedHat distributes the Linux kernel publicly under GPL, so just make sure your kernel is copied from RedHat's site at some point.

Now we could just wish for all the main-stream media to publish this. That should remove any doubt about SCO having even a small chance stopping Linux. They still might be able to get money out of IBM and SGI, but by stating the above they have effectively given up to the code in question.

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 14:41 UTC (Thu) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]

If their remarks were just free speech before, they clearly stopped being
just free speech at the point where they started trying to sell a $600
license for the promise not to sue. IMO, that is how the judge will
see it also.

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 14:58 UTC (Thu) by rknop (guest, #66) [Link] (2 responses)

As open source software development becomes prevalent and digital music can be downloaded for free, many people are simply ignoring copyright and patent laws. Many public commentators recognize this disintegration of property rights as a danger to our economic system.

Oh boy, there's so much in these tiny two sentences to object to....

First off, the implication (or plain statement) that violating copyrights and open source development have anything to do with each other is misleading, false, and offensive. One, whatever you think about copyright terms, is breaking the law, the other is a cooperative model of sharing information which is about as in keeping with the idea of individual liberty (i.e. the philosophy on which the USA was theoretically founded) as you can get while still developing software.

Second off, the sentence nicely goes directly from "copyright and patent laws" to "property laws". Proponents of very draconian copyrights and patents would like us to believe that "intellectual property" is just like normal property, and that therefore copyright and patent laws are property laws. We can't cede this point of the debate by letting the draconing IP proponents paint those of us who think copyrights ought to expire in a reasonable amount of time as being "against private property". (And this is a separate issue to SCO's idea that "open source is copyright violation". Open Source doesn't even directly address the idea of how long copyrights should be. But this is another thing that SCO is letting slip that I object to.)

-Rob

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 15:55 UTC (Thu) by dwalters (guest, #4207) [Link] (1 responses)

I agree with you. This statement is utterly offensive and misleading.

I'm getting SO tired of being lumped with copyright violators and music file sharers.

It actually makes me feel queasy when I read this kind of stuff from SCO. Perhaps I could sue them for damaging my health :-)

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 16:48 UTC (Thu) by dbreakey (guest, #1381) [Link]

Why not? It wouldn't be any more absurd than what they're doing…

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 15:07 UTC (Thu) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link]

> an additional step to educate the Global 1,500 companies

I'm sure they feel edified. Much here would depend on the text of that 'education'.

> contractual obligations to keep UNIX code confidential.

??

> action against Red Hat would take place only when litigation against IBM is completed

Indeed. They have been blowing hot air about licenses, about suing everyone.

And they have been careful in the last while to not step over the line and cause themselves
problems with this case, ie. sending invoices to Redhat customers. Much now depends on how
tough the judge is. I suspect that they will prevail in showing that the case is between them and
IBM, and not be forced to show evidence. Each time they refuse to show evidence, their
credibility drops. Can the stated intent to send invoices be relevant to the judge? I see no
mention of it in SCO's brief.

Derek

I can see their theft of GPLed drivers from SuSE Enterprise 8 might cause discussion

Posted Sep 18, 2003 15:26 UTC (Thu) by leonbrooks (guest, #1494) [Link] (1 responses)

The new drivers in UnixWare are version-number and bug compatible, it is said, with the ones in SuSE Enterprise 8. So now TSG have a fairly direct motivation for killing the GPL.

Nobody seems to have yet been able to explain exactly why IBM subpoenaed The Canopy Group and not The SCO Group. I'm half-expecting thermonuclear writs to start landing in Utah at any instant.

I can see their theft of GPLed drivers from SuSE Enterprise 8 might cause discussion

Posted Sep 18, 2003 19:15 UTC (Thu) by error27 (subscriber, #8346) [Link]

Nobody seems to have yet been able to explain exactly why IBM subpoenaed The Canopy Group and not The SCO Group.

They don't have to. TSG is a party in the suit so IBM can demand all the documents they need without getting a judge to issue a subpeona.

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 15:39 UTC (Thu) by Spike (guest, #14160) [Link]

Red Hat is one of many companies that distributes a software program called "Linux." 28. Linux was developed under an "open source development model' '3 that prohibits proprietary ownership or control by anyone. 22, 26, 32. Therefore, Red Hat has no ownership or proprietary interest in Linux. 32.


This must mean that SCOX has "No ownership or contol" of Linux either, since they claim to understand the open source development model so very well. It appears that SCOX conveniently forgets about the same legal principals it intends to use against others when it is convienient like copyright law and the GPL license.

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 15:56 UTC (Thu) by pjs (guest, #10927) [Link] (1 responses)

SCO would really, really like for their campaign of unsubstantiated threats to somehow be a "debate" on a matter of public importance!

Hell, it worked for Nike, and they were directly lying about their exploiting child labor in third world countries.

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 17:49 UTC (Thu) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

Actually, it didn't work for Nike -- they balked and settled up for $1.5 million. They've gotten away with quite a bit, but obviously decided their chances on First Amendment grounds were not good.

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 17:01 UTC (Thu) by seyman (subscriber, #1172) [Link] (1 responses)

15 SCO has never asserted in any statement that individual, non-corporate users of Linux may be liable to SCO, or otherwise would need to purchase a right to-use-license.

The number of times SCO has changed their minds on the subject is impressive.

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 18, 2003 17:27 UTC (Thu) by rriggs (guest, #11598) [Link]

They may not have asserted it, but they certainly implied it many times. And they certainly asserted that corporate users would be liable to SCO. The question for the judge is what distinguishes the "liability" (in quotes because the mere suggestion of liability to SCO for Linux use is preposterous) between a corporate users and a non-corporate user in this matter?

How to deal with a competing product you can not underprice and you can not buy..

Posted Sep 18, 2003 18:44 UTC (Thu) by rev (guest, #15082) [Link] (8 responses)

As open source software development becomes prevalent and digital music can be downloaded for free, many people are simply ignoring copyright and patent laws. Many public commentators recognize this disintegration of property rights as a danger to our economic system.

Let us see:

1) digital music: freely downloaded and copied without consent of the copyrightholder.

2) open source software: freely downloaded with express consent of the copyrightholder. Licensed to prompote free copying.

Now, if I find myself in a position of having to compete with open source software, something I cannot buy or undercut in price, I want to discredit open source software. Seeing that attempts to badmouth it on tecnical grounds are fruitless and futile I may seek other ways to badmouth it. So I may wish to connect 1) to 2). As there's nothing wrong or unlawful with 2) I need a new ingredient: I assert that some pieces of a popular open source software product, Linux, are owned by me. I increase the credibility of my claim by showing some of those pieces to selected people under a NDA.. When the Linux authors ask me to tell them what those pieces are, so that they can mitigate my damages by removing the pieces from Linux, I can, of course, only refuse, otherwise the connection between 1) and 2) wpuld be lost. And of course, when it was shown that some of that pieces where actually not even mine or released by myself to the public, I simply maintain my position, for the same reason. What I need to do is insist in my possition as long as possible so that I can maintain the impression that 1) and 2) are connected. The longer this impression exists the more time I have to badmouth Linux.

How to deal with a competing product you can not underprice and you can not buy..

Posted Sep 18, 2003 19:49 UTC (Thu) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link] (5 responses)

digital music: freely downloaded and copied without consent of the copyright holder.
Not all digital music is copied without consent of the copyright holder. But even then it undercuts profits of RIAA. Most music downloaders I know are actually nice people. Let's not paint them as criminals.

How to deal with a competing product you can not underprice and you can not buy..

Posted Sep 18, 2003 20:53 UTC (Thu) by rev (guest, #15082) [Link] (4 responses)

Not all digital music is copied without consent of the copyright holder.

That might be true. Howver, I think it is fair to say that most is.

Most music downloaders I know are actually nice people. Let's not paint them as criminals.

Whether they are nice people or not is not too relevant. The fact is that distributing music without consent of the copyright holder is illegal.

How to deal with a competing product you can not underprice and you can not buy..

Posted Sep 18, 2003 23:35 UTC (Thu) by cpm (guest, #3554) [Link] (3 responses)

"The fact is that distributing music without consent of the copyright holder is illegal."

Not a fact. See Audio Home Recording Act of 1992.
This falls under the fair use exception of copyright law which allows
folks to make copies for non commercial use. Not all distribution without
consent falls under this, but some of it certainly does. Which means
this is NOT a fact.

How to deal with a competing product you can not underprice and you can not buy..

Posted Sep 19, 2003 1:17 UTC (Fri) by dwalters (guest, #4207) [Link] (1 responses)

This is splitting hairs.

Basically, it's not fair that SCO are bundling the Open Source community with the file swapping community.

Of course there may be a little overlap (people who download song files for free who also consider themselves members of the Open Source community), but for SCO to talk in general terms about open source development in the same sentence as downloading music files for free, is just like comparing apples and oranges, and although I can't speak for others in the Open Source community, I personally find it utterly insulting.

SCO is trying to paint a picture of us Open Source developers as people who don't respect IP, and simply ignore copyrights. Absolute hogwash!

It seems to me that even this very document, this motion to dismiss, is itself just another piece of nasty, derogatory, Linux-damaging FUD that justifies Red Hat's very compaint.

How to deal with a competing product you can not underprice and you can not buy..

Posted Sep 19, 2003 1:36 UTC (Fri) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]

There is an important difference between not respecting the concept of "intellectual property" and ignoring copyrights. Copyright predates "intellectual property" by centuries. Placing both in the same sentence is just as wrong as comparing free software developers with music downloaders.

How to deal with a competing product you can not underprice and you can not buy..

Posted Sep 19, 2003 17:21 UTC (Fri) by rev (guest, #15082) [Link]

I was and am not in a nitpicking mood.... if you are please go elsewhere.

This is a diversion from the main point anyway, being that SCO is trying to liken the free copying of software that is licensed to be freely distributed to the copying of digital music that is not licensed to be freely distributed. Whether copying of such music can be legel under certain conditions or not is not too relevant.

How to deal with a competing product you can not underprice and you can not buy..

Posted Sep 21, 2003 3:26 UTC (Sun) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] (1 responses)

Why is digital music automatically being illegaly copied? If I do own a CD with some song, it is quite legal for me to download it to play it on my laptop. Or the song might be freely distributed.

How to deal with a competing product you can not underprice and you can not buy..

Posted Sep 21, 2003 14:36 UTC (Sun) by rev (guest, #15082) [Link]

I am getting tired of this sub non-discussion. The point, my friend, is that most digital music is downloaded illegaly. Got that? If not, reread the phrase. And even if this where not a fact, this is certainly the perception in the mind of the general public. SCO is trying surf on this wave by attempting to connect this downloading and the free distribution of Linux by artificially amplifying the ananogy by trying to give the free distribution of Linux an air of copyright infringment. Now, that downloading digital music can be legal under condition this or that is utterly irrelevant. Got that? Good.

SCO Copyright Law 2003

Posted Sep 19, 2003 1:31 UTC (Fri) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link]

So, according to the new law from SCO, people that distribute copyrighted works of others and without permission are not copyright infringers. Good to know. On the other hand, the ones the use it are.

I reckon everyone at SCO should lay off crack immediately.

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit will fail

Posted Sep 19, 2003 1:40 UTC (Fri) by danw6144 (guest, #14336) [Link]

I believe the SCO brief is poorly argued. And this is why.
In a Rule 12 Motion for Dismissal the Court examines the allegations as law, ASSUMING THE FACTS AS ALLEGED ARE TRUE.
When you see SCO's defense lawyers arguing "facts" in a Rule 12 Motion it's a good indicator the law is not on their side. The evidence is weighed for truthfullness and credibility at trial... not in preliminary motions.

Below is an excerpt from the recent Nike case appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court. I have added my emphasis.

"This case presents novel First Amendment questions because the speech at issue represents a blending of commercial speech, noncommercial speech and debate on an issue of public importance.5 See post, at 12—13. On the one hand,<<< if the allegations of the complaint are true>>>, direct communications with customers and potential customers that were intended to generate sales–and possibly to maintain or enhance the market value of Nike’s stock–contained significant factual misstatements. The regulatory interest in protecting market participants from being misled by such misstatements is of the highest order. That is why we have broadly (perhaps overbroadly) stated that “there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact.” Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc., 418 U.S. 323, 340 (1974)

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 19, 2003 6:58 UTC (Fri) by oak (guest, #2786) [Link]


Here's an *analogy* of SCO claims for the non-technical public...
--

Dear neighbour,

We are the S-C-O. Since your garden:
- Adjoins the garden we recently bought,
- Contains similar plants to what's in our garden,
- You do in it same kind of "development" that the owner of OUR garden we think to have done and
- Our plants pollinate your trees and have done that for several decades
(we deny any evidence of the reversal to have ever happened),

We hereby declare that:
- your garden is derivative of our garden and we own it.
- We own averything you've added to it and worked on for the last few decades.
- We own "IP rights" to any garden designs etc.that you've done in that garden or your designs that were innovated by it.
- You have to pay a license when you use your garden and when you or somebody you've hired, works in/for it.

You owe use 1 billion dollars in unpaid licencing fees and as a one-time compensation for trampling on our intellectual property (regardless of whether we've ourselves ever exerted any intellect in creating it).

In addition, we have an irrevocable right to badmouth you publicly and call you a thief. Rest assured that we've already exercised that right extensively.

Cordially yours,

- The S-C-O

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 19, 2003 21:08 UTC (Fri) by walterbyrd (guest, #11620) [Link]

From motion to dismiss:

"15 SCO has never asserted in any statement that individual, non-corporate users of Linux may be liable to SCO, or otherwise would need to purchase a right to-use-license."


From SCO web-site:

Q) If I am running SCO Linux or Caldera OpenLinux do I need to obtain a SCO IP License for Linux?
A) Yes. SCO will distribute an IP License for Linux to all SCO Linux users.

http://www.caldera.com/scosource/linuxlicensefaq.html

SCO's motion to dismiss the Red Hat suit

Posted Sep 19, 2003 21:11 UTC (Fri) by walterbyrd (guest, #11620) [Link]

From the motion to dismiss:

"Specifically, Red Hat cannot identify any express or implied threats to enforce SCO's intellectual property rights against Red Hat."

From press release:

"Of course, we will prepare our legal response as required by your complaint. Be advised that our response will likely include counterclaims for copyright infringement and conspiracy."

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030804/lam110_1.html


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