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Lotus Symphony code for OpenOffice coming soon

Lotus Symphony code for OpenOffice coming soon

Posted May 20, 2012 21:45 UTC (Sun) by rcweir (guest, #48888)
In reply to: Lotus Symphony code for OpenOffice coming soon by keithcu
Parent article: Lotus Symphony code for OpenOffice coming soon

Keith, I have no idea whether or not you have any experience developing software, so I apologize in advance if this is a review to you or others.

Software is absolutely nothing like how you describe it. You cannot just take an application and say it can be extended to do anything and to meet all user needs. Only someone with no practical experience in software development would claim that.

Sure, at a theoretical level you could say that all features could be included and exposed to users who want them, in an infinitely extensible model. But what about opposing priorities? One group wants to add Mono dependencies to LibreOffice while removing Java dependencies, but another wants to remove Mono dependencies and use Java for extensibility? Sure, do it all. It is only an "if" statement, right?

Another group wants to make the product be light fast, with only core features. But maybe another group wants to add new features. No problem, it is only code. We'll do everything.

The problem is doing A+B is not really cheaper than doing just A or just B. And even if you have more cooks in the kitchen to do A+B jointly this will necessarily come at increased complexity, and that increased complexity is the bane of quality, performance and schedule.

Remember, software reuse (and working together on one application is just a form of software reuse) is never free. It always comes with integration and coordination costs. The benefit is not always worth the cost.

If this were not true, then everyone would just be working on LibreOffice. Not just me, but everyone from AbiWord, Gnumeric, Calligra Suite, even Microsoft Office.


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Lotus Symphony code for OpenOffice coming soon

Posted May 21, 2012 1:12 UTC (Mon) by keithcu (guest, #58738) [Link] (2 responses)

I have practical experience such as the years I spent as a programmer in Office. I learned at Microsoft various things, such as why free software and Linux continue to lose to Windows. It also helped me understand why the AOO fork was a bad idea. I can say with some certainty that those inside Microsoft who learn what was going on with these 2 forks would laugh at the stupidity of the competition. Forks make sense, sometimes. Not this time.

You make a theoretically valid point that it would be hard if one group of people wanted to add Mono and remove Java, and another group wanted to do the reverse. However, that example is a dumb one for many reasons. The codebase is C++ and will stay that way for some years. Mostly development is about adding little features here and there, and there won't be such diametrically opposing interests. Consider a feature to support a new DOCX keyword. Or make it startup faster. Some users might want the former, and some might want the latter, but you can do both.

Here is a data point: Go through LibreOffice changes and find out how many AOO does *not* want. This is real data as opposed to the made-up reasons you offer. This is something you should have done at the beginning. If you find you want 99% of LO code changes, what does that tell you?

To understand why one team can meet all user's needs, learn about Wikipedia or the Linux kernel. The kernel supports many filesystems, and many other methods of extensibility, but the code is shared. Some want to run it on cellphones and some want to run it on supercomputers, and they've done it in one codebase. Stop me if you've heard any of this before.

Part of the reason why those products worked out so well is because lots of people worked together so the product could be the best of everyone's ideas. Your experience apparently ignores the existence of Linux and Wikipedia.

However, you are actually making a bigger mistake. You are giving made-up reasons for why the AOO project should exist. You are one year into this, and you still can't list actual reasons for what you are doing. Otherwise, you'd have come up with a better one than Java vs. Mono.

Compare your fork to the Ubuntu one. When Mark created Ubuntu, he did it because he wanted features that Debian didn't support. We can argue whether he could have added those features to Debian, but he at least *had* reasons. You apparently still do not.

I have never argued that people working on AbiWord should be working on LibreOffice. This is only about AOO versus LO. You like Chithanh bring up irrelevant facts. You also didn't sufficiently consider all the minuses to your plan. You also didn't retract and refine it when people objected.

The current AOO plan helps Microsoft and hurts LibreOffice. I know you work hard, but unfortunately it is basically a waste of time. It is something like building a house out of sand instead of concrete. You can spend a lot of time working on your sandcastle, but it will still be flawed at the end.

Lotus Symphony code for OpenOffice coming soon

Posted May 21, 2012 13:42 UTC (Mon) by chithanh (guest, #52801) [Link] (1 responses)

> To understand why one team can meet all user's needs, learn about Wikipedia or the Linux kernel. The kernel supports many filesystems, and many other methods of extensibility, but the code is shared. Some want to run it on cellphones and some want to run it on supercomputers, and they've done it in one codebase. Stop me if you've heard any of this before.

I already mentioned previously in this thread "there is a lot of diversity and there are very few high-profile exceptions where one project was able to fulfill the needs of everyone."

Linux kernel is almost an exception, though not even fully. Or why do you think that Debian GNU/kFreeBSD exists? Of course GNU/kFreeBSD does not satisfy everyone either. Some people call it a toy OS[1] even.

Wikipedia is the largest online encyclopedia, but that doesn't mean it satisfies everyone. Their crowdsourcing model is great for accumulating information. It is not so great if you depend on the correctness of a particular piece of information.

[1] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2011-Ma...

Lotus Symphony code for OpenOffice coming soon

Posted May 21, 2012 14:49 UTC (Mon) by keithcu (guest, #58738) [Link]

FreeBSD exists and that is fine, but that doesn't mean the Linux kernel is missing features. I doubt there are many projects out there where FreeBSD would do the job but the Linux kernel couldn't. Your counterexample doesn't prove your point.

Of course Wikipedia doesn't meet all needs yet. It is only 11 years old. And Wikipedia will not be the only resource. But the point is that it was able to incorporate diversity you care so much about.

You argue diversity is a good thing and therefore AOO should exist. It is an analysis so simplistic, it is possibly a tautology.


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