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Xfce 4.10 released

Version 4.10 of the Xfce desktop environment is out. New features include a rewritten application finder, tiling support, and more; see the Xfce 4.10 tour page for an overview.

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Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 29, 2012 16:56 UTC (Sun) by littlesandra88 (guest, #64017) [Link] (26 responses)

Let's hope this gets into RHEL7, so we don't have to deal with Gnome3 that will be the default.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 29, 2012 17:06 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (25 responses)

Xfce is available in the EPEL repository. I don't think it is going to be in RHEL 7.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 29, 2012 23:54 UTC (Sun) by backup230 (guest, #84382) [Link] (24 responses)

Seriously? I'm afraid Red Hat's corporate customers are going to freak out with the interface in Gnome3. They are notoriously conservative.

The alternative explanation is that Red Hat doesn't care about the Linux desktop. This is consistent with RH CEO's statements, which were along the lines of "we don't know how to make money on Linux desktop".
http://www.tuxradar.com/content/red-hat-no-money-desktop-...

While this seems like a sad state of affairs, perhaps Red Hat's approach is "well, Gnome2 didn't exactly set the world on fire, let's try something different". Innovation is healthy, but with Gnome3 there is also a huge risk in actually reducing the usage of the Linux desktop. Gnome3 or KDE4 shouldn't be the only options on RHEL7 -- they're both very polarising.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 1:48 UTC (Mon) by louie (guest, #3285) [Link] (23 responses)

Or, you know, another alternative explanation: RH's desktop team has spoken with way more of those enterprise customers (particularly the high-paying ones) than you have, and GNOME 3 reflects that feedback.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 7:21 UTC (Mon) by nkap (guest, #84384) [Link] (1 responses)

Not sure if my (small) company is a representative RedHat customer but we do have several tens of RHEL workstation and most of our software vendors have standardized on this distribution.

At the moment it is impossible for us to switch to Gnome 3, we have encountered too many compatibility issues with our legacy software, and we would have to sacrifice support of our vendors (unofficially they do permit some minor deviations from the environment they specified but that's not going to happen for Gnome 3).

Not sure what we will do once Gnome 2 is discontinued - hopefully RedHat will find a suitable replacement (from what I've seen Xfce would be fantastic - much better than our current Gnome 2 desktops). Or, maybe our vendors will start supporting a wider range of distributions or will come up their own.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 21:37 UTC (Mon) by tuna (guest, #44480) [Link]

What kind of "compatibility issues" do you see on Gnome 3.X that makes your legacy software unusable? Could you please provide some details?

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 7:25 UTC (Mon) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

I don't think that theory holds much water. Redhat is not the emperor of Gnome. It seems that Gnome project itself is rather independent tends to do what they think is the best.

Besides that if you don't like change, then don't change.

Redhat 6 is going to remain comfortably Gnome 2 and will continue to be a supported system all the way through 2020. So there is really no reason for a customer that wants avoid Gnome 3 to use Gnome 3 for a great long time.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 10:27 UTC (Mon) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link] (2 responses)

I'm pretty sure that most of Red Hat's customers, particular the high-paying ones, don't install desktop GUIs on the majority of their RHEL systems and so which particular set of software that paints screen pixels doesn't matter much to them.

Their much more concerned about how RH can squeeze more TPS out of the kernel.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 1, 2012 16:28 UTC (Tue) by angdraug (subscriber, #7487) [Link] (1 responses)

Last time I installed RHEL5 it certainly didn't offer me an option NOT to install desktop GUIs. Did I miss a turn somewhere?

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 1, 2012 16:38 UTC (Tue) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link]

Probably... I don't know if kudzo itself has the option (though I'd be surprised if it didn't), but you can definately install gui-less (or even headless) with kickstart or RHN or Satellite which is what most corporations with a lot of servers will be using. Do you really think that your Rackspaces or NYSEs are installing a bunch of buggy/insecure GUI apps on their precious server farms?

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 13:48 UTC (Mon) by Pawlerson (guest, #74136) [Link]

That's simply not true. Gnome developers stated that their target aren't Gnome 2 users. I tried to figure out what's their target and after getting some replies it seems their target are people who actually love Gnome 3. A shot in a dark.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 15:58 UTC (Mon) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (3 responses)

Given how little attention was given to discoverability and backward compatibility, this theory seems exceedingly unlikely.

I'd love to hear any evidence to suggest that this is true. It would restore some faith in the development process.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 22:35 UTC (Mon) by ovitters (guest, #27950) [Link] (2 responses)

You can run GTK+2 apps just fine in GNOME 3. Same as using gconf.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 3, 2012 7:44 UTC (Thu) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

From our previous conversations you must know what I mean: backward compatibility with existing users and their workflows.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 3, 2012 11:06 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

Is the same true for applications that use Gnome2 libraries (not just GTK+)?

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 17:06 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (11 responses)

So why don't RedHat release this work? When Sun decided CDE had to be replaced and settled on GNOME, it went and did *objective* HCI studies with actual Joe Bloggs end-users. The end results were shared with the GNOME community, from which came the GNOME HIG and the UI changes in GNOME 2.

If GNOME 3 UI changes have been data-driven, then let that data be published.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 1, 2012 14:22 UTC (Tue) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (10 responses)

There is a real problem with 'objective' HCI studies which surprisingly few usability experts address:

The majority of these studies are done specifically by finding people who've never used the environment before, because they want to avoid users having preconceptions about the system. This seems fair, but unfortunately the result is a tendency to optimise things for the first few hours of use - or perhaps the first few days/weeks.

In reality nobody is a newbie forever, so interfaces which have great usability initially (ie 'easy to use without learning') are often less usable in practice (ie poor learnability/flexibility).

I'm sure it's *possible* to design an interface which is welcoming to first-time users without being restraining to long-time users, but thus far the free software desktop has a poor track record in this department.

BTW I think desktop environments have a particularly difficult problem here. With most software, you know roughly what the user is trying to do - after all, you know what your software is designed for. A desktop environment is different; it needs to support an enormous range of use cases and can't safely make many assumptions about the user or their goals.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 1, 2012 19:45 UTC (Tue) by jirka (guest, #83100) [Link] (8 responses)

Lots of things I do (adding a printer, setting up a network, adding a new icon to the "dock" or "panel", setting up screensaver preferences, etc...) are things I will do once a year or two. Everytime I do them, it is like using it for the first time. Unless you are a sysadmin, you are not an expert in adding a printer. You do it once, then it's added, and you never ever need to go there again, unless you buy a new printer or new computer.

So first time use is precisely what needs to be tested for a large part of the desktop.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 2, 2012 12:12 UTC (Wed) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (7 responses)

>Lots of things I do (adding a printer, setting up a network, adding a new icon to the "dock" or "panel", setting up screensaver preferences, etc...) are things I will do once a year or two. Everytime I do them, it is like using it for the first time. Unless you are a sysadmin, you are not an expert in adding a printer. You do it once, then it's added, and you never ever need to go there again, unless you buy a new printer or new computer.

I don't disagree. What I do disagree with is the focus on making those 'once a year' actions easy at the expense of everything else.

At the moment, I'm trying the Windows 8 preview, coming from Windows XP (it's a similar experience going from Gnome 2 -> Unity, or KDE3 -> early KDE4 releases).

Printing is actually a pretty good example - they've completely changed the way the control panel works and it's a lot more straightforward to add a printer. Unfortunately most of the things I'm likely to use rather more often end up so deeply hidden behind a dozen clicks that the overall experience has become worse[0].

In fact I no longer have any idea how to find much of anything in the control panel. There seem to be fifty different ways to get everywhere, all of them bad. Apparently the idea is that you should use search for everything, but that requires you to guess what they've renamed what you're looking for, and is spectacularly useless if you're trying to find out where they've moved the keyboard layout option[1].

In an effort to make the system touch friendly, they've replaced the start menu with what is basically a big list of every start menu entry, ordered seemingly at random. This aids discoverability in a sense - damn-near anything you can launch is there in a big list - but as soon as you've installed a non-trivial number of applications [2] you have to put work into manually recreating something roughly resembling the old heirarchical format and keeping it manually maintained, or it becomes completely unmanageable.

I had a go at Unity a few weeks back (IIRC not 12.04; I think it was 11.10). At first it looked interesting, but I quickly found myself cursing that they seem to be trying to avoid a distinction between launching an application and switching to an existing window. I guess they don't want new users to open the same application repeatedly, but the problem is that those actions *are not the same*, not even conceptually, and the sooner a new user learns that the better (in reality I'm not convinced that anyone has trouble with that distinction anyway). I ended up having to use keyboard shortcuts because, in an effort to simplify window management, they'd made actual use a lot more cumbersome.

Making simple things simpler should not mean making complex things harder, or impossible.

[0] Actually to be fair the two control panel items that - depressingly - I find myself needing to use more than any others are Event Viewer and Network Connections. This was really a problem in Windows 7 because in an attempt to front-load the more popular control panel items they'd hidden those behind, I conservatively estimate, about 400 million clicks. In 8 they have learned their lesson there and both items can be reached by right-clicking on the 1x1 hot corner where they keep all the goodies.

[1] For ref: it's under 'Ease of access' -> 'Change how your keyboard works' -> 'Add a Dvorak keyboard and change other keyboard input settings' -> <select the primary input language, or 'add a language'> -> 'Options' -> 'Add an input method' -> <select from a list> -> 'Add' -> 'Save'.

[2] All of which will inevitably add entries to 'uninstall', 'read the manual', or 'go to our website', and won't have the name of the application in the shortcut because they assume the shortcut will be seen in their program group.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 3, 2012 10:44 UTC (Thu) by Otus (subscriber, #67685) [Link] (6 responses)

> I had a go at Unity a few weeks back (IIRC not 12.04; I think it was
> 11.10). At first it looked interesting, but I quickly found myself cursing
> that they seem to be trying to avoid a distinction between launching an
> application and switching to an existing window.

IME Unity makes it very easy to do the common tasks of opening a specific
app whether or not it's running (just click the launcher icon) and opening a
new instance of an app (middle click instead).

This is as opposed to old Gnome 2 and other desktops where you have at least
two different places to go (task bar or menu/shortcut) depending on what you
want and whether the app is already open.

Works very well after you get used to it. Especially if the number of
frequently used programs is small enough to comfortably fit the launcher.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 3, 2012 11:27 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (5 responses)

> IME Unity makes it very easy to do the common tasks of opening a specific app whether or not it's running (just click the launcher icon) and opening a new instance of an app (middle click instead).

Middle click is extraneous to most people, and it's unnecessarily difficult on a laptop. I would not argue that Unity makes it easy.

> This is as opposed to old Gnome 2 and other desktops where you have at least two different places to go (task bar or menu/shortcut) depending on what you want and whether the app is already open.

People are used to this. It's how most computer UIs work. It's what everybody that has used a computer has come to expect. Unity feels awkward just for the sake of being different. It's not difficult to guess why many people don't like it.

> Works very well after you get used to it. Especially if the number of frequently used programs is small enough to comfortably fit the launcher.

Too many requirements. What about those that do not want or do not have the patience to "get used to it"? What if your list of frequently used programs is big, or changes frequently?

To be frank, the only people that I can think of that benefit from Unity's design is people like my mother-in-law. She used to let 7 o 8 Firefox windows open in the old Ubuntu Netbook Remix until I came to close them. For some reason, whenever she wanted to look up something with Google, she just opened a new one. Now she can reuse the old instance (but adds a new tab, she cannot be bothered to click on the home button to reuse the one already open).

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 3, 2012 14:00 UTC (Thu) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link] (3 responses)

>> This is as opposed to old Gnome 2 and other desktops where you have at least two different places to go (task bar or menu/shortcut) depending on what you want and whether the app is already open.

>People are used to this. It's how most computer UIs work.

Some people are. Many really aren't. My parents usually end up with three or four copies of Thunderbird running after a typical session on their desktop, because they keep launching a new instance rather than clicking on the running instance in the Window list.

Unifying the launching and activation of tasks is one thing that Apple really got right in OS X (though I'm sure they weren't the first to think of doing so, I think it's reasonable to say that they popularised it, now that it has been adopted by Windows 7 and even GNOME 3).

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 4, 2012 17:22 UTC (Fri) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

The same is true of both my parents and my sister.

This is *not* an obvious thing for anyone who doesn't use a computer regularly (probably because, in most other fields, creating new whatevers is not possible, so they assume that they are always reusing, even when they are not.)

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 5, 2012 20:17 UTC (Sat) by robbe (guest, #16131) [Link]

> Unifying the launching and activation of tasks [...]
I first saw this in Nextstep, which is, of course, an OS X progenitor.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 6, 2012 1:23 UTC (Sun) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

I think that where Unity really fails is in requiring different buttons for starting the first and subsequent instances. The middle click thing is really not discoverable.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 7, 2012 3:38 UTC (Mon) by mmorrow (guest, #83845) [Link]

> Middle click is extraneous to most people, and it's unnecessarily difficult on a laptop.

Thinkpads have three mouse buttons (and I use one as my main computer).

Also, middle button-paste is mind-numbingly useful, and for me personally to be without it would be crippling.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted May 2, 2012 14:49 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

So, I have to say, I like it when UIs try make things as simple as possible. I was perhaps a bit sceptical of GNOME2 initially (more cause of its crashiness), but the way it tried to simplify and de-clutter the UI was great. Further more, it was great for non-technical users.

I'm not sure GNOME-Shell sticks to the simplicity philosophy. Some common actions seem to be *very* hard to discover, requiring you to move a pointer to a special place on the screen, or to press special keys to change the mode of the UI. Of course, I'm just one user and not a very normal one, so I'd love to read an objective, metric-driven HCI study on how GNOME3/GNOME-Shell compares to GNOME2.

If I still had GNOME2 users, I'd be quite hesitant to move them to GNOME3, because its such a massive change. Some older users particularly would need a lot of hand-holding to cope, I'm sure. However, it's a moot point, as I no longer have such users - they've all gone to windows in the last few years. Driven there primarily by desire for Windows applications.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 29, 2012 17:45 UTC (Sun) by theophrastus (guest, #80847) [Link] (5 responses)

A bit of a throwaway comment here, but allow me to thank the developers of Xfce. As one that has tried just about every desktop-environment/window-manager since the early days of fvwm, (through KDE and Gnome), it impresses me as the current best balance of useful features against bloat. And doesn't seem at all burdened by the dictatorial attitude of certain such solutions. Thankee folks!

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 11:21 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (4 responses)

Yes, Xfce is a delight to use. I would restate it as the sweet spot of resource usage versus features. Less resources and it would remove useful features; on the other hand I don't miss the extra features (such as compositing desktop) that more resources would buy.

Also, there are few surprises and no feature churn from one release to the next. And it shows. Thanks, people!

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 13:08 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (3 responses)

I believe XFCE >= 4.8 does in fact support compositing. On my better computers, I've turned on window transparency during moving, for example.

XFCE rocks. I love how 4.10 is simply 4.8 improved and refined and not a "break-your-user-experience" bolt from the blue.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 17:31 UTC (Mon) by markhb (guest, #1003) [Link] (2 responses)

The "bolt from the blue" was effectively the 3 => 4 transition, when they stopped trying to be like CDE. This was a deep disappointment to some of us who used it because it was like CDE. Deeply uncool, I realize, but it still means that there is no CDE on Linux.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 20:09 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Yes, I was hit by the 3-to-4 transition and even lamented on the mailing list. Fortunately, later releases of 4.x rendered most of my gripes moot as missing features were added or removed options re-enabled. The XFCE developers were (and are) pretty good at listening to their user's wishes.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 21:42 UTC (Mon) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

The thing I miss about Xfce 3 was that it didn't open its root-window menu under the mouse pointer, but right next to it, so I could toggle the menu without moving the mouse if I changed my mind or opened the menu by mistake. A small thing, but quite nice once I came to expect it.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 29, 2012 17:52 UTC (Sun) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link] (3 responses)

I think the online-only documentation is not entirely a good idea -- not everyone is always online, all the time. An option to install a (possibly out-of-date) snapshot locally, and update it when one is online, would be better.

On the other hand, there is little to explain about XFCE -- it works very much like any other desktop. So maybe there's no harm done.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 7:18 UTC (Mon) by kugel (subscriber, #70540) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't think changed it because they like an online version better. It's a step to invite more contributors to it, as the offline version did not get maintained sufficiently (it was horribly out-of-date and incomplete).

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 20:05 UTC (Mon) by jengelh (guest, #33263) [Link]

xfce thankfully belongs to the program pool that you do not need a manual for, if you had prior encounters with the "plain desktop and a taskbar" DE concept.

Xfce 4.10 released

Posted Apr 30, 2012 16:41 UTC (Mon) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link]

I thought of that too, but a person could save a local copy with wget or Firefox easily enough.


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