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Thoughts on conferences

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 23, 2011 0:26 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313)
Parent article: Thoughts on conferences

running a good conference network is not that hard if you have a smallish conference, but when you get up to around a thousand people (especially with a tight cluster of rooms), it starts becoming _very_ hard

disclaimer, I run the wireless for SCALE


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Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 23, 2011 0:45 UTC (Wed) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link] (7 responses)

I can't wait for SCALE -- looking forward to chilling in the hotel lobby, catching up on HD videos on YouTube while I do an "apt-get dist-upgrade"

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 23, 2011 1:33 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (6 responses)

Exactly, it's amazing how many people do exactly that :-), but at the time you are chilling in the lobby it's usually not a problem, the peak problem actually happens during the keynote and the most packed sessions. When you get several hundred people in a room, each of which are carrying multiple wifi devices that they all set to update, then you really have headaches (why the people battle to get into the room and then do this rather than doing it in other, less crowded areas is a very interesting point to think about)

This is why last year we ran a local repository for Debian and Ubuntu. We tried to do so for Fedora, but they are not setup in a way that lets us do so.

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 23, 2011 4:52 UTC (Wed) by skvidal (guest, #3094) [Link] (5 responses)

Mirrormanager for fedora can do exactly that for local private mirrors.

Contact the mirror manager admin or come by #fedora-admin on freenode.

Thanks
-sv

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 23, 2011 23:48 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (4 responses)

with Debian and Ubuntu it's possible to do DNS trickery to point people who are requesting updates to a local server. The names involved are _only_ used for the distro repository.

If I understand the problems we ran into with Fedora last year correctly, we found that Fedora repositories are mixed in with other software on the server, so we can't just have a mirror of the Fedora software and redirect access to the local system as people trying to access the other things on the server will not find them.

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 23, 2011 23:51 UTC (Wed) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link] (1 responses)

What about a transparent proxy? IIRC Debian has used that during DebConf some years and it worked even when I wasn't using the DNS supplied by the conference.

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 23, 2011 23:58 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

we did that as well, it didn't help nearly as much as we hoped.

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 24, 2011 13:40 UTC (Thu) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link] (1 responses)

> with Debian and Ubuntu it's possible to do DNS trickery to point people who are requesting updates to a local server.

From what I have read, with Fedora's MirrorManager, you can tell the Fedora mirroring infrastructure to point people coming from a range of IP addresses to your mirror. So, the effect would be similar to your DNS trickery.

See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Mirroring#H... for the details.

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 25, 2011 1:09 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

thanks, that's very useful info.

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 23, 2011 20:48 UTC (Wed) by speedster1 (guest, #8143) [Link]

Thanks for your work at SCALE, which is a very good conference. One of my friends and fellow LUG-members is also on the organizing committee, and I've been amazed at all the meetings and work that go on behind the scenes throughout the year, not just the actual month of the conference.

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 24, 2011 11:53 UTC (Thu) by obi (guest, #5784) [Link] (2 responses)

Do you have any pointers to documentation on "how to keep you (wireless) network running during events"? We've had two occasions where our organisation's wireless fell over, with a lot less people involved than you mention, so any tips would be very welcome. I'm thinking of things like:
- choice of APs/antenna's/HW/...
- getting the APs to work better together
- outdoor/indoor issues
- etc

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 24, 2011 14:16 UTC (Thu) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link]

There are some pointers in the answers to this serverfault question: http://serverfault.com/questions/72767/why-is-internet-ac...

Thoughts on conferences

Posted Nov 25, 2011 1:03 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

The posts from the pycon network admin provide a lot of good info.

But there are a handful of core issues to think about.

First, if the radio portion doesn't work, nothing else has a chance.

The gut reaction of many people is to turn the transmit power up, which is exactly the wrong thing to do.

Think of people at a party, turning the power up is just everyone talking louder, which just causes more interference. Instead you want to turn the power _down_, ideally to the point where the APs are transmitting at the same effective power levels as the devices connecting to them (after all, it does no good for the AP to be able to broadcast farther than the thing you are trying to talk to as you won't hear the response), since the APs tend to have better antennas, this can be lower in terms of watts out than what the client devices are doing.

Second, don't put too many radios in a given area.

This is tricky as not having enough radios leads to gaps in coverage, but having too many leads to interference problems. Especially on 2.4GHz there are only three usable channels. On 5GHz you have many more channels, so you can put far more APs in a given area without any problems.

Do some testing of the building you are setting up in. some walls are going to be transparent to the signals, others will block the signal. Use this to your advantage to allow you to have more APs in an area without them being able to hear each other (and the people's devices in the other rooms)

As for Directional Antennas.

The first thing to realize is that all APs are directional to some extent, some very significantly so (the 5GHz only netgear APs I've used for the last two years had a significantly stronger signal out the back of the AP for example)

The second thing is that directional antennas help both receiving and transmitting (unlike turning up power which only helps transmitting)

The third thing is to realize that the area of the antenna pattern where it receives poorly can be more important than the area where you get better reception.

The fourth thing to realize is that it doesn't matter if the antenna is hyper-directional and so can't hear another AP (or people sitting in an area) if the clients that you are talking to can hear those people (in radio terms this is called a hidden transmitter)

This being said, directional antennas can help you. they can let you position the APs where there is power and network rather than where you really want them.

If you have a L-shaped layout of rooms, you may be able to position the APs at the corner of the L to cover both legs.

If you have a large room (a long theater layout for example), you can put one AP at the front and one at the back with directional antennas to cover the entire room well.

Once you have the RF portion in some semblance of sanity, then the digital aspects start to come in to play. check how many clients the AP will support, some of them will only allow a small number to connect (I have some expensive 'commercial grade' APs that only allow 32 users to connect for example)

Run the same SSID on all the access points on a given band so that movement between them is transparent. I opt to run a different SSID for the 2.4 and 5GHz bands, although I see claims from commercial vendors that they have technology to 'steer' clients that can use 5GHz to that band, I don't understand how it can work (any pointers would be appreciated)

Watch your Internet Bandwidth. It's frequently hard to have enough. I will have 45Mb at SCALE, and I wish I had 2-3x as much (although it's _so_ much better than the 4.5Mb I had two years ago at the old hotel)

I've got mixed thoughts on QoS, it sounds like it should be a good idea, but there are a few problems.

First, you really need the QoS on the downstream side from your ISP, doing anything from your side is working very indirectly.

Secondly, it's a significant amount of overhead on your systems.

also, look carefully at the bufferbloat info for tweaks to amke

I need to do some diagrams to give examples of this stuff.


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