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FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 13, 2011 9:41 UTC (Tue) by etienne (guest, #25256)
In reply to: FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider) by guest
Parent article: FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

I do not have a clue of legal matter, but the cases you describe seems to be about a period of compliance with a license followed with a period of non compliance.
In a lot of cases of software non compliance, a completely new product is for sale - it does contain GPL parts but does not provide any way to get the source code.
In that case the product maker/seller never had a license to distribute the GPL parts, you as the GPL licensor cannot withdraw (the copy) rights that you never gave in the first place...


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FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 13, 2011 12:06 UTC (Tue) by guest (guest, #2027) [Link] (11 responses)

You seem to confuse the concepts of "condition precedent"
(an event which must occur, unless its non-occurrence is
excused, before performance under a contract becomes
due...) with "consideration" (compliance with the
requirements of the license in exchange to the licensed
grants).

All "free" and "open source" licenses out there (even BSD
and MIT style licenses) are full of consideration
(obligations imposed on the licensees in exchange to the
licensed grants) and totally lack conditions precedent.

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 13, 2011 12:48 UTC (Tue) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link] (10 responses)

Maybe because "condition precedent" looks like contract laws, the EULA seems to be a contract too, but for the GPL/BSD... there is no contract.

The GPL Is a License, not a Contract: http://lwn.net/Articles/61292/

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 13, 2011 13:07 UTC (Tue) by guest (guest, #2027) [Link] (7 responses)

"Whether this [act] constitutes a gratuitous license, or one for a
reasonable compensation, must, of course, depend upon the
circumstances; but the relation between the parties thereafter in
respect of any suit brought must be held to be contractual, and not an
unlawful invasion of the rights of the owner."
De Forest Radio Tel. & Tel. Co. v. United States, 273 U.S. 236, (1927)

"Whether express or implied, a license is a contract 'governed by
ordinary principles of state contract law.'"
McCoy v. Mitsuboshi Cutlery, Inc., 67. F.3d 917, (Fed. Cir. 1995)

"Normal rules of contract construction are generally applied in
construing copyright agreements. Nimmer on Copyright sec. 10.08. Under
Wisconsin law, contracts are to be construed as they are written. When
the language is plain and unambiguous, a reviewing court must construe
the contract as it stands. In construing the contract, terms are to be
given their plain and ordinary meaning." (citations omitted).
Kennedy v. Nat'l Juvenile Det. Ass'n, 187 F.3d 690, (7th Cir. 1999)

"Although the United States Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. ยงยง 101-1332,
grants exclusive jurisdiction for infringement claims to the federal
courts, those courts construe copyrights as contracts and turn to the
relevant state law to interpret them."
Automation by Design, Inc. v. Raybestos Products Co., 463 F3d 749,
(7th Cir. 2006)

"However, implicit in a nonexclusive license is the promise not to sue
for copyright infringement. See In re CFLC, Inc., 89 F.3d 673, 677
(9th Cir. 1996), citing De Forest Radio Telephone Co. v. United
States, 273 U.S. 236, 242 (1927) (finding that a nonexclusive license
is, in essence, a mere waiver of the right to sue the licensee for
infringement); see also Effects Associates, Inc. v. Cohen, 908 F.2d
555, 558 (9th Cir. 1990) (holding that the granting of a nonexclusive
license may be oral or by conduct and a such a license creates a
waiver of the right to sue in copyright, but not the right to sue for
breach of contract)."
Jacobsen v. Katzer, No. 3:06-cv-01905, (N.D. Cal. 2007)

BTW, the last one is about Artistic License being a contract (just
like any other copyright license).

http://www.jbb.de/judgment_dc_frankfurt_gpl.pdf

"On behalf of the people JUDGMENT ... The GPL grants anyone who enters
into such contract... contractual relationship between the authors and
Defendant ... incorporated into the contract by virtue of the preamble
of the GPL ... Plaintiff, or the licensors from whom Plaintiff
derives his right, have not violated any contractual obligations
themselves ... Defendant, who violated contractual obligations"

http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/MySQLcounterclaim.pdf

MySQL's counter-complaint asserting breach of GPL license contract
("COUNT VIII Breach of Contract (GPL License)") and asking for
declaratory (court to declare GPL terminated) and injunctive (court to
preliminary and permanently enjoin Progress/NuSphere from "copying,
modifying, sublicensing, or distributing the MySQL(TM) Program")
relief (plus damages, of course).

IBM's SIXTH COUNTERCLAIM (Breach of the GNU General Public License)
against SCO... "SCO accepted the terms of the GPL... IBM is entitled
to a declaration that SCO's rights under the GPL terminated, an
injunction prohibiting SCO from its continuing and threatened breaches
of the GPL and an award of damages in an amount to be determined at
trial" (Pretty much the same as MySQL's claim above), BTW. From IBM's
memorandum:

"SCO's GPL violations entitle IBM to at least nominal damages on the
Sixth Counterclaim for breach of the GPL. See Bair v. Axiom Design LLC
20 P.3d 388, 392 (Utah 2001) (explaining that it is "well settled"
that nominal damages are recoverable upon breach of contract); Kronos,
Inc. v. AVX Corp., 612 N.E.2d 289, 292 (N.Y. 1993) ("Nominal damages
are always available in breach of contract action".). "

Also worth noting (from IBM's brief regarding the GPL contract breach):

"the Court need not reach the choice of law issue because Utah law and
New York law are in accord on the issues that must be reached to
address SCO's sole argument on this motion, namely, that SCO did not
breach the GPL. Throughout this brief, IBM cites to both Utah law and
New York law."

This licensing principle -- that all intellectual property licenses
are a type of contract -- was explained to Richard Stallman by
Professor Micheal Davis in 1999. See:

http://lists.essential.org/upd-discuss/msg00131.html

Here's more:

"(A``non-contractual copyright permission'' would be some sort of
license that does not involve a contract I suppose, but that is not
a well defined term.)"

http://lists.softwarelibero.it/pipermail/diritto/2002-Feb...

-- the respondent's email address resolves to:

PETER D. JUNGER
Professor of Law Emeritus
Case Western Reserve University
College: Harvard College, A.B. 1955
Law School: Harvard Law School, LL.B. (magna cum laude) 1958

How about this:

"The GPL IS a contract. Calling it a license simply describes the type of
contract it is."

http://www.mail-archive.com/license-discuss@opensource.or...

-- the respondent's email address resolves to:

ROD DIXON J.D. LL.M.
Visiting Assistant Professor of Law, Rutgers University School of Law,
Camden, New Jersey, Fall 1999 to present.
EDUCATION: LL.M. (with Distinction), Georgetown
University Law Center, 1998. J.D., George Washington
University Law School, 1992. M.A., University of
Pittsburgh, Faculty of Arts and Sciences, 1986. B.A.,
University of Pittsburgh, College of Arts and Sciences,
1984.

Finally,

REPLY BRIEF IN SUPPORT OF DEFENDANT INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS
MACHINES CORPORATION'S REASSERTED MOTION TO DISMISS (Wallace case
about the GPL):

"as is evident from the ProCD case Plaintiff cites, copyrights may be
licensed by a uniform contract effective against all who choose to use
it. (Response at 6) (citing ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, 86 F.3d 1447,
1454 (7th Cir.1996).)"

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 14, 2011 9:32 UTC (Wed) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link] (6 responses)

Thanks for all those pointers, you know that field better than me.
I can understand that if both parties want to solve a problem using contract laws, that can be done once they agree a contract has been established when the problematic software has been taken.
For what I have read elsewhere, to have a contract, you need to have completely defined parties of the contract, and a clear start date.
Could you explain why a GPL licensor would want to recognise a contract would even exist when someone downloads the GPL file from a server, without having any intention to respect the GPL license?
Is it not more simpler to treat it as a simple stealing, a bit like:
Paul gives a license to Peter to connect to his computer to do a limited set of thing; Peter connect to the computer and copy the restricted "Patent Application" which would make Paul rich if he is able to process it without anybody knowing. Peter then continues to behave badly and Paul goes to court.

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 14, 2011 10:17 UTC (Wed) by guest (guest, #2027) [Link] (5 responses)

Now you seem to confuse the concepts of scope-of-use limitation/restriction and consideration.

FOSS licenses have neither scope-of-use limitations nor any conditions precedent to the grant of rights.

Consider the following license:

"Provided that you paypal me ten dollars you can make no more than ten copies for the price of ten dollars per copy."

Initial act of paypaling ten dollars is condition precedent, no more than ten copies limitation is scope-of-use restriction, ten dollars per copy is consideration.

Got it now?

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 14, 2011 11:35 UTC (Wed) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link] (4 responses)

I do understand what you are saying, in the context of a contract:

> Consider the following license:
> "Provided that you paypal me ten dollars you can make no more than
> ten copies for the price of ten dollars per copy."

That is for me a clear contract, the parties are defined and the agreement date is clear.

Now assume that my Rolce Royce classic car (I wish) was stolen from a public car park, and the person who did it was found.
Can that person claim in front of the court that I decided freely to park in a public car park, so that I made a contract with anybody walking in the car park to allow them to look at my car - and the fact that he took the car away is a simple breach of that contract?
I think I would claim that there was no such contract, just maybe an implied license to look at the car.

In fact, I do not see when the contract (you are talking about) is created when someone put a GPL file on a fileserver and an unknown person later download that file.

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 14, 2011 14:01 UTC (Wed) by guest (guest, #2027) [Link] (3 responses)

The act of downloading as such does not create a contract relationship, see

http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/specht/specht70301ord.pdf

OTOH any act of exercising copyright right(s) granted by the license is a product of license contract: please do not confuse IP licenses with non-contract governmental permits such as gun dealer/fisher/driver licensees, etc...

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 14, 2011 14:53 UTC (Wed) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link] (2 responses)

> any act of exercising copyright right(s) granted by the license
> is a product of license contract.

I would still understand that, but in most case the people selling non GPL compliant products never had any copyright right(s) because they obviously refused the conditions of the license from the beginning.

To go back to your example, you say on Internet:
"Provided that you paypal me ten dollars you can make no more than ten copies for the price of ten dollars per copy."
Then I do not tell you anything, and sell hundreds of copies for one hundred dollards each.
There is no contract, there is no license, there is nothing.

What happens then in front of the court?

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 14, 2011 16:10 UTC (Wed) by guest (guest, #2027) [Link] (1 responses)

Failure to paypal initial ten dollars (condition precedent) means that there was no license granted and the court would recognize copyright infringement (tort instead of breach of contract). But once again, please keep in mind that

condition precedent
scope-of-use limitation
consideration (covenant(s) in exchange to the license grant(s))

are different concepts and FOSS licenses totally lack conditions precedent and scope-of-use limitations (they are full of non-monetary consideration).

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 15, 2011 8:55 UTC (Thu) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link]

One of the pre-condition you are looking for may be in the license of the GPL (version 2 at least) text itself.
The text of the GPL is obviously not under the GPL license, you are not allowed to modify it.
The beginning of the GPL text tells you when you are allowed to copy that text.
You need the right to copy the GPL text to become a licensor because you need to include a copy of that text with the software package you license to your users.
To become a licensee you probably also need to have the right to copy that text because it is part of the package you copy (i.e. install) on your computer.
Now the question is, what does it mean to lose the right to use the GPL after an infringement?
Do the infringer loose the right to copy the GPL text itself?
That is what I was thinking at the beginning, I am no more sure.

Please note that I am using the term "pre-condition" and not "condition precedent" because I am still not sure a contract can be established when the licensor has no way to know two things: the identity of the licensee and the date of the beginning of the contract.

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 13, 2011 18:19 UTC (Tue) by jrn (subscriber, #64214) [Link] (1 responses)

> http://lwn.net/Articles/61292/

That's very helpful.

The question becomes what "Any attempt otherwise [...] will automatically terminate your rights under this License" would mean in the context of a license --- is this an additional condition on further copying, modification, sublicensing, and distribution or just a way to emphasize which rights are reserved and require complying with other conditions? The FSF's intent was probably the former, but the latter also seems to be a popular interpretation.

Now the disagreement actually makes sense to me. Thanks for a clear explanation.

FSF's Star Turn in the Android FUDathon (LinuxInsider)

Posted Sep 14, 2011 9:49 UTC (Wed) by guest (guest, #2027) [Link]

Termination for breach is ultima ratio in contact/licensing laws and it never happens "automatically".

The situation is no different when you rent someone your house and rentee breaches the contract (the breach does not "automatically" turn rentee into trespasser).


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