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No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 15:21 UTC (Mon) by and (guest, #2883)
Parent article: No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

> Among other things, those requirements include a working filesystem
> checker, and that is not yet on offer.

Wasn't fsck.btrfs anounced to be released RSN back in february? I wonder what keeps it back for so long...


to post comments

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 15:25 UTC (Mon) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (1 responses)

$rpm -qf /sbin/btrfsck
btrfs-progs-0.19-13.fc15.x86_64

It can report errors but not correct them yet. Should be there soon, I hope

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-Augu...

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 15:58 UTC (Mon) by trey (guest, #37500) [Link]

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 15:48 UTC (Mon) by brunock (guest, #76114) [Link] (9 responses)

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 18:46 UTC (Mon) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link] (5 responses)

For all of its advantages, isn't a copy on write approach the opposite of what one would normally choose to get high random write performance? A filesystem like BTRFS is doing several times as much work for each random write. For general use, BTRFS seems like the way to go, but I can't see anyone choosing to host a busy relational database on it anytime soon. The same goes for ZFS.

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 19:15 UTC (Mon) by brunock (guest, #76114) [Link] (3 responses)

Yes, but BTRFS is supposed to be a general purpose file system.
And busy relational databases aren't a server only feature.
Think of your spam filter or about what Firefox does in the
background all the time.
So I guess normal users will get hit by this problem, too.

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 23:06 UTC (Mon) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link] (2 responses)

Random reads are not nearly as much of a problem, as long as the index pages are well cached, which they would be for relatively small files. The problem with most copy on write filesystems is that every random access involves an index lookup to locate the right data page, and the indexes for something that has experienced a lot of random writes have essentially one entry per data page. If you have very large files, that may mean two or more physical I/Os to do a random read, one to look up an uncached index page, and one to read the data page.

It seems to me that what BTRFS needs for something like Firefox is the ability to disable copy-on-write for individual files, except when a user takes a volume snapshot. Alternatively, applications like Firefox could keep a backup database file, and only fsync the primary database file every ten minutes or so, and check on startup to see if the primary database file needs to be recovered from the backup.

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 23:58 UTC (Mon) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

for firefox, the change to have a backup file and only sync the new file every few minutes would be a good change on every filesystem.

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 9, 2011 17:36 UTC (Tue) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link]

Would that feature be described as "Per-file compression and nocow control"? Because that's in the 2.6.39 features list. I assume that the performance tests (and, probably, actual applications) aren't using that yet.

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 11, 2011 15:27 UTC (Thu) by anton (subscriber, #25547) [Link]

isn't a copy on write approach the opposite of what one would normally choose to get high random write performance?
No, if you read the position paper on log--structured file systems, of which COW file systems are a generalization, write performance was the main argument for this style of file system. In particular, random writes are very slow on an in-place-updating file system, because they require many seeks. In contrast a copy-on-write file system can just write them (and their meta-data) sequentially, i.e., quickly, requiring just one seek (and maybe another one to update the root block). Of course, if you want to read the resulting files sequentially, this strategy loses; you cannot have it all.

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 20:11 UTC (Mon) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link] (2 responses)

1/ Optimising performance before it's feature complete would be a bit of a poor idea.

2/ Some of the performance is just inherent to COW filesystems. If you look at benchmarketing exercises between ZFS/OpenSolaris and btrfs/Linux with something like a Postgresql load you'll see quite comparable performance.

3/ I would expect btrfs, long term, to shine in the same places ZFS does, which is with many spindles, and using all the features (data integrity, snapshots, and so on).

It feels kind of odd sticking up for btrfs.

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 9, 2011 6:02 UTC (Tue) by butlerm (subscriber, #13312) [Link] (1 responses)

If you don't have performance in mind before you start designing a filesystem, nothing else will matter when you are done. The on disk format will dictate everything about how well your filesystem will perform in the real world. And of course the on disk format is the one thing that you won't be able to change.

On disk format vs. mount options.

Posted Aug 9, 2011 22:20 UTC (Tue) by gmatht (guest, #58961) [Link]

I am not sure what you mean. For example mount options will clearly also have an effect, and it seems likely that the performance in this particular benchmark relates to Btrfs defaulting to datacow. Btrfs also supports O(1) file copies so in many ways it has better performance than ext4.

Fixing on disk format is clearly a priority, but that is orthogonal to performance vs. features. For example, checksumming, and the "feature" of allowing hundreds of hardlinks per directory, requires format changes. On the other hand adding a heuristic to toggle datacow probably wouldn't.

No Btrfs by default in Fedora 16

Posted Aug 8, 2011 16:08 UTC (Mon) by masoncl (subscriber, #47138) [Link]

It's really just juggling the features I want btrfsck to have with keeping up with QA and patch review on the kernel bits.

We have a lot of very active development work going on, and while my all of my R&D time on is fsck, I still need to patch and test the kernel parts too. I did let a few distractions creep in, such as redoing the metadata locking in 3.1-rc1, but that was a major performance bottleneck.

I think f17 is a better choice for Fedora. We're working in parallel on the fsck and closing off the few remaining performance issues.


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