Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 12, 2011 4:00 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
In reply to: Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem by butlerm
Parent article: Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Yes indeed but it goes a bit more than that. Btrfs has been a option in Fedora for a few releases and gets tested throughout the development cycle and if there are any fixes, it all goes upstream and benefits every Linux user. Sure, Fedora derivatives will inherit these fixes but so will everyone else. If it doesn't meet the release criteria (robust fsck, error handling etc), then it will be postponed just like systemd got postponed from being default for Fedora 14.

There is nothing to complain about, really. Everyone should have backups and if you don't want to use Btrfs as default, pick something else like Ext4 or XFS which are going to be supported options forever till you feel it is mature but it is not going to considered mature automatically without some distribution taking the first step. Fedora happens to be really good at that and it fits the distribution goals perfectly. Even if you don't use Fedora, what Fedora does, still benefits you. What more could one ask for.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 12, 2011 14:49 UTC (Sun) by MisterIO (guest, #36192) [Link] (16 responses)

I agree with everything you said except for "...Everyone should have backups...". I doubt that any normal user can afford to have them.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 12, 2011 16:23 UTC (Sun) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (12 responses)

What is your definition of "normal user" exactly? Casual desktop users can and do retain good backups just fine. This is not just on Linux but Windows and Macs too. They all include personal backup systems which are popular. Storage is now more accessible than ever. If you can't afford to have good backups, maybe you can afford to lose all your data instead. Even if you can trust your filesystem 100%, hard disks can and do fail not to mention accidental deletion which is even more common.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 13, 2011 7:04 UTC (Mon) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link] (11 responses)

If you think that personal backup solutions are used by anyone outside of a shockingly tiny minority of people, you are entirely out of touch with what the average computer user is like, does with his computer, knows about computers, thinks about computers, or wants to know about computers.

This is _really_ hard for computer nerds to accept -- especially so for developer-focused FOSS types whose circle of friends is mostly other developers -- but the regular user doesn't know what a backup is at anything more than a vague conceptual level, and he doesn't care because his computer is just a tool to get stuff done and learning computer terminology or programs or shortcuts is boring as crap and a waste of his time. Just like most FOSS developers probably couldn't tell the difference between a carburetor and a fuel injector without Googling them, most "casual users" can't tell the difference between a program and a document. Not because they're stupid, but just because they flat out don't freaking care, and would much much much rather spend their time out with friends or family, or outside, or watching TV, or playing games, or hitting the bar, or getting laid (as JWZ famously put it in his Groupware Bad article).

This is part of the reason why the OSes and platforms that target _real_ casual users remove the need for backups in the first place, by relying on either automatic or forced synchronization to other devices as often as possible or by syncing all documents and settings to "the Cloud." In other words, the backup always happens and is so ingrained into the system's use model that the user doesn't even need to be aware that it's happening.

When we get back into the realm of the scary/annoying/complicated desktop OS systems (be it Windows, OS X, Linux, or anything else), the only thing that saves the user from his own low give-a-crap meter is the expectation that the system will not randomly lose all his data because the vendor couldn't be bothered to make it stable enough for casual use.

I mean, seriously, we live in a world where a great number of "casual users" pay Apple or Best Buy a not-inconsiderable chunk of money to transfer files to new computers or recover files from fubar'd OS installs because the very act of copying files from one disk to another is not in their repertoire of computer skills. Or to look at it another way, we live in a world where anti-virus is pre-installed on 99% of Windows PCs because an overwhelming number of "casual users" (many of them self-proclaimed tech experts due to their frequent reading of PC Magazine and pcworld.com) still think that clicking Yes when the dialog "Naked_Hot_Actress_Screensaver.exe is from an untrusted source, are you sure you want to run this application?" pops up is a good idea.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 13, 2011 7:51 UTC (Mon) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (7 responses)

I don't about your experiences but as I already noted, I know many casual desktop users (not developers) who do regularly take backups because they have lost data in the past and they cannot afford to do so again. This has nothing to do with the stability of the filesystem but often just physical hardware failures, viruses, accidental deletion of data and so on.

My point remains, everyone should have backups for their important data. It seems you fully agree with that and you are talking about implementation details like whether it should be automated and where the data should be stored. Anything that makes backup easier is fine by me.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 13, 2011 9:54 UTC (Mon) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link] (6 responses)

Obviously they do need backups, but if they need backups _even more_ than they do elsewhere, something is horribly wrong.

Your friends and family and coworkers are not normal casual users, if for no other reason than because they know you. Your personal anecdotes are as utterly meaningless as mine or anyone else's. If you can't step back and look at the larger picture outside your personal bubble then you are going to continue being really out of touch with what regular computer users are like. You can't look at your Aunt Tillie and use that as a measure of what an average computer user is like; you have to look at someone else's Aunt Tillie who has no nephew who's a bad-ass programmer, and in fact no contact at all with anyone who's more knowledgeable about computers than a CompUSA salesman.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 13, 2011 10:24 UTC (Mon) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (5 responses)

"Obviously they do need backups, but if they need backups _even more_ than they do elsewhere, something is horribly wrong."

So you agree that they need backups for all their important data. Since I never claimed that they need it more than anywhere else, we are in complete agreement.

Anyone who is using Btrfs as this point or in the near future is hardly likely to be a casual desktop user anyway. So I hardly see why we are so bothered about my single statement that everyone should have backups.

The following is a side point but you are assuming a lot. Nowhere did I claim nor imply that I am helping anyone setup backups. In fact, I do not and I played no part at all in them setting up backups. Maybe my experience is different but since I never said that this was the average end user experience, there is no need to argue about that or assume that. So far, I haven't seen any neutral data on how many average end users actually do backups. Your opinions don't count.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 14, 2011 21:12 UTC (Tue) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link] (4 responses)

When you spend 30 seconds googling, you easily find facts and studies. :)

Here's the very first link for "user backups study" which incidentally claims that 92% of users do not perform regular backups. The results page on Google has a number of other such papers and reports from other sources.

http://www.backblaze.com/press-June-is-Backup-Awareness-M...

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 15, 2011 8:40 UTC (Wed) by jezuch (subscriber, #52988) [Link] (2 responses)

> 92% of users do not perform regular backups

On the other hand it says that as many as 8% of users *do* perform regular backups. Isn't it kinda optimistic? ;)

software nags some into backing up

Posted Jun 17, 2011 22:02 UTC (Fri) by skierpage (guest, #70911) [Link]

8% performing regular backups sounds about right. System "security" software nags you to make backups. E.g. my family Thinkpad running Windows has Lenovo's ThinkVantage Rescue and Recovery software nagging to make backups, and also the Norton 360 anti-virus icon displays an angry red X if you don't make regular backups. Alas the two programs don't understand each other, the former wastes disk space unless you manage backup generations, and the latter is dog slow navigating files to restore and doesn't backup the right directories for email software like Thunderbird and SeaMonkey. But if users with such utilities on their system bother to make the checkmarks go green, they're doing some kind of backup.

(I don't trust either of them, I occasionally fiddle with Unison and rsync to synchronize key directories to a storage drive where I can see files.)

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 21, 2011 13:26 UTC (Tue) by ssam (guest, #46587) [Link]

backing up on macosx is very easy, so that might be a fairly big chunk of the 8%.

maybe the distro installers should be asking people to choose a backup device.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 15, 2011 8:42 UTC (Wed) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link]

30 seconds googling is not enough to verify any facts. Just see some links. I honestly don't know what average users do and don't really care. My statement on backups should be read in context which has nothing to do with average users anyway but people who are trying btrfs now.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 17, 2011 15:37 UTC (Fri) by jeremiah (subscriber, #1221) [Link] (1 responses)

I think FOSS developers are a little more diversified than you might think. Last summer my son and I wrote an asteroids clone together. This summer were putting a super charger in a Mustang GT, and rebuilding the engine in our tractor. All the while debating the pros and cons of open core vs. open, and GPLv3 vs. GPLv3 Affero for our startup. And I don't think this is unusual or rare. I think OSS developers all tend to be more jack of all trades and fix it them self types. Given that we like to fix the code our it kinda implies that we like to fix the things in our wetware lives as well.

Sorry for the off topic, but was just trying to figure out what kind fuel injectors to get this morning so your post just struck me. :)

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 17, 2011 23:15 UTC (Fri) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link]

Analogies are like swiss cheese: full of holes and often smelly. (But now that means that they taste good on sandwiches and are good for catching mice.)

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 18, 2011 14:42 UTC (Sat) by lab (guest, #51153) [Link]

> If you think that personal backup solutions are used ..(snip)...

As "depressing" as it sounds, I would have to agree with you. In my experience through a couple of decades as the "home computer support guy", I would say, that the overwhelming majority of people consider (all forms of) computers as utilities that needs to just work automagically the way they want them to. I have (very slowly) resigned to the fact, that nothing I will ever say or do is going to change that. That is also why I think that ChromeOS (and the likes) should gain widespread usage - it's simply the only way forward.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 13, 2011 2:14 UTC (Mon) by cowsandmilk (guest, #55475) [Link]

Most normal users can afford backups more than they can afford to lose the stuff they are backing up.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 13, 2011 3:27 UTC (Mon) by Hausvib6 (guest, #70606) [Link] (1 responses)

They are just lazy, like me, or clueless. When the disaster strikes, they will running around screaming blaming the fs developers and/or everyone developing the stacks:
"ext4fs sucks"
"btrfs is still experimental, how dare you make it as my default fs!"
"linux ate my data"
etc.

Fedora 16 to use Btrfs as its default filesystem

Posted Jun 16, 2011 10:13 UTC (Thu) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link]

Some corroboration of this is the huge demand for data recovery tools and services, which wouldn't be required at all if the average casual user did good backups.