Sites bow to Microsoft's browser king (News.com)
Non-agnostic Web sites "are saying, 'We're only interested in people if they use this browser,'" said Janet Daly, a representative for standards group the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). "That's a mistake on their part. The browser is a basic utility for people, and it's about having access to information regardless of who made that information or what authoring tool they used.""
Posted Jul 10, 2002 4:27 UTC (Wed)
by tompoe (guest, #9)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Aug 10, 2002 23:48 UTC (Sat)
by JoHoe (guest, #3200)
[Link]
Posted Jul 10, 2002 5:27 UTC (Wed)
by rjamestaylor (guest, #339)
[Link] (2 responses)
To be fair, the sites could be saying "We're only interested in the browser that people use." It's depressing, as a Mozilla fan (on my Linux and Mac OS X machines especially), to view the awstats reports of various sites under my control and see, consistently, 95% MS Windows/IE. I'm afraid the only reason it's that low is that my co-developer and I use Mozilla/KDE to manage our sites and we therefore generate about 1% of the hits... So when push comes to shove and the project has to get out the door, can you blame designers for targeting the 95%? Afterall, the remaining 5% can probably fire up IE if necessary, so how much audience does one really lose by targeting IE? I don't like it, but I think I understand it.
Posted Jul 10, 2002 6:27 UTC (Wed)
by tres (guest, #352)
[Link]
At the moment I'm visiting my Mother's and using Netscape on her Tres
Posted Jul 10, 2002 11:47 UTC (Wed)
by thocar (guest, #2516)
[Link]
2) Surfers being segregated because of their browser preferrence tend to hate the company that did that to them. Browser segregation is just another kind of segregation, soon or late everyone will be segregated in it life, the answser to segregation is not another segregation 3) It is not more difficult to make w3c compliant web site, because nowdays all browsers stick to w3c
Posted Jul 10, 2002 8:17 UTC (Wed)
by DeletedUser2129 ((unknown), #2129)
[Link] (1 responses)
I think a website designer allways should try to make his website Chel van Gennip
Posted Jul 10, 2002 10:29 UTC (Wed)
by horen (guest, #2514)
[Link]
Posted Jul 10, 2002 15:06 UTC (Wed)
by bazo901 (guest, #2520)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Jul 10, 2002 16:31 UTC (Wed)
by libra (guest, #2515)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 10, 2002 20:49 UTC (Wed)
by DeletedUser2522 ((unknown), #2522)
[Link]
Posted Jul 10, 2002 19:42 UTC (Wed)
by garym (guest, #251)
[Link] (2 responses)
Quite coincidentally, I quit the CFIB today over this same issue. The Canadian Federation of Small Business told me, as someone posted here, to just "use Microsoft IE instead". This really means "re-tool your entire IT infrastructure to use our approved vendor or go away, jerk." For us, this would mean buying a new machine, licensing the Microsoft O/S, installing it all on our network, securing it, and all for what? In the CFIB case, so I can view a list of categories presented in MSIE-only DHTML. A friggin list of catagories for only $699. I hit the ceiling and walked out. I don't need to be spending dues to fuel a microsoft marketing wing. Why am I so sensitive? Well, you tell me. Let's say you go into your local bank's small-business loans office and a clerk half your age says "sorry sir, but our software is all 7-bit ASCII and you are from the Czech Republic. If you want to do business here, you must get your name legally changed." Afterall, that's only a $200 fee in most places and everyone else (almost) has only 7-bit letters in their name! That scenario, of course, is bullshit: Any bricks and mortar business with any such exclusivity policy would find themselves in deep doodoo, possibly even in court. Ditto if the grocery store said "Only US-made cars may park here" or the coat-check threw your overcoat back at you because it lacked some proprietary collar loop. So why are we so eager and willing to forgive and accept this exclusivist bullshit from websites? And it is bullshit (pardon my saxon). HTML was specifically designed to be portable and I have seen no examples of stunning IE-specific DHTML so compelling that it justifies $699 cash outlay to Dell just to see it. HTML 1.0 is plenty expressive enough to show me a dropdown list of 20 catagories. "We are fixing it" is not an excuse: the proprietary requirement should never have been deployed in the first place. If your carpenter builds you a non-standard door only some people can fit through, you fire them, hire a real carpenter, and re-do the doorway. Ok, ok, yes, I remember the browser wars. I remember testing Sympatico on no less than a dozen different platforms and versions, and I remember how much I hated the whole interoperability business. I'm also guilty of deploying www.teledyn.com when I knew full well MSIE 4.x would upchuck on font sizes in anything but px (I did eventually fix it, but never really missed the ms traffic I was supposedly losing). My point is not that anyone is more perfect or not, but only that we should not be so ready willing and eager to forgive in the digital what we'd despise in the real world, and that we are not going to change any of this so long as we silently sit back smug in knowing that "it works for me and to hell with those we leave out". If your own site goes weird for some obscure browser, don't insult the complaintant; try to step around the iffy code. When you hit a site that could and should be standards compliant, demand that they do or make good on your threat to walk away. We have to take a stand somewhere. If we just shrug our shoulders and sheepishly hand the keys to Internet access to proprietary interests, then we deserve whatever we get. Yes, I expect the CFIB won't even notice the loss of my paultry dues just as Jim Clark won't bemoan alienating a 15% market share, but at least I know where I stood the day the free Internet closed up.
Posted Jul 10, 2002 19:59 UTC (Wed)
by garym (guest, #251)
[Link]
Just as an epilog: The CFIB took only hours to respond to my walking out: We regret your decision to cancel your membership but, of course, we respect your decision completely and unreservedly. Regards, Note the tone of remorse; I feel missed already (not).
Posted Jul 10, 2002 21:44 UTC (Wed)
by garym (guest, #251)
[Link]
Hi: Over on the DMCA list, we've got a thread going about Maricopa County stating that the majority of county residents are using IE, therefore, they have no interest in making their web site available to other browsers. Amazing stuff! I prefer not to use the phrase, "Non-agnostic web sites", instead, relying on the phrase, "pig-ignorant". Thanks, Tom
Sites bow to Microsoft's browser king (News.com)
Here is another site from a telecommunications monopolist in the Netherlands. This is a subsidiary which offers ADSL-access: MXSTREAM .
The worst culprits are even government agencies (only proprietary document formats,like MS-Word available for download, etc.). This means access to crucial government/social info is often not possible.
On some sites navigating is almost impossible, thanks to Frontpage like tools which generate horrible code.
!!!W3C: do something about it!!!/
Sites bow to Microsoft's browser king (News.com)
"Non-agnostic Web sites "are saying, 'We're only interested in people if they use this browser,'" Another angle...
Afterall, the remaining 5% can probably fire up IE if necessary, so howAnother angle...
much audience does one really lose by targeting IE?
Winblows 98 machine. However, at my house I have no access to any
M$ products. Nor have I for over two years. I have access to a few
different Linux distros and use either Netscape or Mozilla on them.
It is very frusterating to me when I actually have to open the site's
source to read the content; it is also very rare that I find an
article that is that important to me.
1) Most companies may be right for short term reasons to make an IE web site, but in the long term they are totally wrong, because they can't control MS strategy. In the long term, MS strategy never benefits to the user, it benefits only to MS.Why IE web site is bad for your company
The subject normally is viewed from a perspective of monopolism,Yet another angle
market share etc.
accessible for "any" browser.
Some visitors have handycaps that will limit their choice, e.g. for
blind people a text based browser is a good solution.
Most of the sites "best viewed withs IE 5.4.3.2.3 or better, with flash
and javascript at a resolution of 800x600 with microsoft font errors etc."
are not accessible. I think it is wrong to exclude certain groups
of users without propper reason.
http://www.serg.vangennip.com
"handycaps"... I haven't seen such a beautiful malapropism in quite some time...
Yet another angle
It's not a webpage unless W3C says it is. How can professional IT people Sites bow to Microsoft's browser king (News.com)
be so ignorant?
I was about to explain how and why it is important to properly develop web sites, only using standard technologies.Everything has been said.
I was about to give examples of web sites losing consummers because they want to force them to use Flash, Passport, IE5 etc..
I was about to speak of my "silent" boycott of all these sites that despise their users.
But finally everything has been said here, it is simple and clear, a web site is by definition W3C compliant or is not. It is so obvious that I couldn't have formulated that alone.
In the real world, most web sites, including those you use every day, aren't W3C compliant. It's entirely possible to be browser neutral without being W3C compliant. It might be ideal if everyone strictly followed the W3C standards (or it might not, depending on what you think of the standards process), but in the real world, it's not what happens.Everything has been said.
Czechslovakians: Go Away!
Czechslovakians: Go Away!
Gary:
Tom Charette
CFIB - Member Services - Ontario
A collegue of mine has some interesting comments ... can anyone confirm this?
Maybe it's more insidious ...
this CFIB flub-up _may_ be a function of the ColdFusion app
server getting too cozy with Microsoft technology, rather than a deliberate
design decision of the CFIB web folks. Now that Macromedia bought out
Allaire, the great Allaire products are gettin' "enterprised". The
ColdFusion app server could be spewing the sucky code and the developer is
too lame to know how to override it.