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Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

The Register reports that Neil Levine has left Canonical. "Levine was with Canonical for just two years but he oversaw the push to turn Ubuntu into the kind of Linux server platform that's capable of letting you easily deploy apps to the cloud. His division handled cloud and server products. That meant he'd work on the integration of Eucalyptus into the Maverick Meerkat release of Ubuntu and was scheduled to worked on improving the ability for cloud frameworks such as Hadoop and Cassandra to interoperate in future versions of Ubuntu server."

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Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 9, 2011 19:25 UTC (Mon) by alvieboy (guest, #51617) [Link] (3 responses)

So everyone seems to leave Canonical these days.

And apparently Mark wants to reach 200M users in 4 years (http://digitizor.com/2011/05/09/mark-shuttleworth-ubuntu/).

This, with addition to Unity and other Ubuntu changes, makes me think not everyone shares Mark ideas. I personally don't use Ubuntu, and I will probably not do so (I'll stick with my old-fashioned, highly tuned debian). I see many people complaining about latest release, from UI problems to hardware interaction problems.

Is this really the way to go for Ubuntu ?

Alvie

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 9, 2011 22:17 UTC (Mon) by Hausvib6 (guest, #70606) [Link]

Since their software will always be free (gratis, not necessarily libre), I think they need the fund to sustain its continuity by selling various services. Furthermore, perhaps Mark Shuttleworth wants to have a profitable business in FLOSS (at least some part of it).

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 10, 2011 9:02 UTC (Tue) by AlexHudson (guest, #41828) [Link]

The 200M thing is a nonsense, even if you believe they have the 12M or more users they claim. Even if they're counting the "instant-on dualboot OS" system that some laptops ship, that still requires them to get on some substantial minority of *all* new PC sales, and today I can't think of a single store I can walk into and buy something with Ubuntu on. I'm sure they exist, but they are not the norm.

Meanwhile previous goals, like breaking even by 2008, don't get talked about so much. It's great setting goals for yourself, but there's no point doing them unless you actually achieve them.

I would love them to set a goal like "make a profit two years running" and achieve that. It doesn't really matter how many users you have unless your business is sustainable, particularly when you're not charging for the product that you're scaling up. Updates servers and all that infrastructure isn't free, or even that cheap.

Somehow I can't help thinking this...

Posted May 10, 2011 12:06 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Somehow I can't help thinking this:

>Pinky: "Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?"
>The Brain: "The same thing we do every night, Pinky—try to take over the world!"

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 9, 2011 23:30 UTC (Mon) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link] (25 responses)

Never attribute to cult de-programming what can be adequately explained by the prospect of greener pa$ture$.

(Heck, even Mel succumbed to them.)

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 10, 2011 7:33 UTC (Tue) by loevborg (guest, #51779) [Link] (24 responses)

I agree, long live the cult! Ubuntu is a fantastic project with lots of intelligent and capable people inside Canonical and in the greater community. We wouldn't be as far along today in FLOSS as we are without Ubuntu, LWN-comments opinions to the contrary notwithstanding. There's nothing at all wrong with trying to make a buck with Free Software on the desktop (even if it's hard) or with trying your own ideas about how the Linux desktop should look like. Kudos to Zimmerman and Levine for their outstanding work, and to Shuttleworth for his ongoing support.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 8:49 UTC (Tue) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link] (23 responses)

My feeling with Ubuntu is that they don't really have the resources (whether unpaid developers, or revenue to fund developers/marketing) to really deliver on their ambitions with the required quality. There are major problems even with Ubuntu 10.04 LTS and Ubuntu One, which have been around for some time, and I can't see Dropbox users going for a single platform sync service when they use Windows, iPhone, etc. Going from 12 to 200 million users is an extraordinary leap, and I'm not convinced that going for Wayland and Unity is really going to help them, when a big part of Ubuntu's problems today are that too many users encounter significant hardware and other bugs compared to just using Windows.

Almost every Ubuntu install I've done has required some tweaking to make hardware work (WiFi, graphics card, sound, etc), though the size of the community means that at least most problems are fixable if you have some Linux expertise.

The cloud stuff looks quite good, but I see detailed HOWTOs from server syadmins about how to turn off the desktop-oriented boot messages that came with Upstart (re-enabling init verbose logging to debug server startup issues). Really not clear if one company can win on so many fronts, though there are signs that their desktop success is helping in enterprise, VPS hosting and cloud.

The general pattern I see is Ubuntu forging ahead with many great innovations but without enough attention to finish and quality, probably because they are spreading themselves too thinly for the available resources.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 14:03 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (20 responses)

This sort of thing is why Redhat gave up on the desktop and turned to just subscription only 'enterprise' services.

It's really quite impossible to meet the demands of both enthusiast and enterprise-style customers with a single system like this. The needs and desires of both groups are way too divergent.

What Ubuntu really needs to do is split up it's offerings into 3 groups:

- Desktop
- Workstation
- Server

LTS would be workstation and server. Desktop would be similar to Fedora.

Like I've mentioned before the thing that Linux really lacks is a pre-configured enterprise ready desktop management offering. That is: There is no competition to Active Directory.

There is still significant opportunity for a company like Canonical to provide a pre-configured and pre-tested server/workstation infrastructure that will provide the management interfaces that are closer to on par with what Microsoft offers.

And not only concentration on Linux 'business desktop' (aka workstation), but fully support Windows integration.

My advice for Ubuntu would be concentrate on getting their VPS stuff up to par with the competition and also put significant effort into integrating and support SAMBA 4 technologies.

By helping to mature Samba4 and providing effective GUI management tools then they would be able to offer a viable alternative to AD for small-medium businesses, as well as people wishing to deploy a full fledged domain system at home.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 14:25 UTC (Tue) by AlexHudson (guest, #41828) [Link] (16 responses)

The problem with the 'windows AD alternative' pitch is that a. Linux isn't a very good Windows desktop and b. the Windows desktop really isn't that expensive.

Even replacing a SBS install with Ubuntu or something is going to save a business maybe $600 in the first year, less in years after. But by doing that, the business drastically narrows their support options and ability to deploy other applications, and you still need to charge them *something* in order to make some money.

This is a good model for a value-add-reseller like Zentyal, who pretty much do this. It's not a good model for an OS developer like Canonical. Too much work, not enough margin.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 15:21 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (15 responses)

>The problem with the 'windows AD alternative' pitch is that a. Linux isn't a very good Windows desktop and b. the Windows desktop really isn't that expensive.

It doesn't matter.

It's required functionality if you expect people to be able to use Ubuntu professionally for anything other then web servers.

> It's not a good model for an OS developer like Canonical. Too much work, not enough margin.

What your arguing is something along the lines that that since car tires are low margin then there is no point for automobiles to including wheels for customers.

If they want to be able to sell support contracts and get people to use their OS they have to provide the functionality that their customers require. You need to be able to provide the minimal level of functionality for people if you expect them to use your software. AD-like functionality and Windows integration is just part of the minimal level of functionality required.

AD provides LDAP services, Kerberos support, user management, configuration management, and other facilities for managing identity, authentication, and authorization that Ubuntu currently does not even come close to addressing. In effect using Ubuntu requires administrators to cobble together their own versions of things from almost random many individual unconfigured binary packages that should of been long included by default.

It takes weeks of effort and a high amount of expertise to get Ubuntu server close to the point that SBS is out of the box. Your looking at tens of thousands of dollars worth of effort and time for even moderately sized deployments.

The costs associated with deploying Linux are not insignificant. If your a OS company and you want people to pay you money for support you need to offer them a significant return for their value.

Redhat works and makes money by lowering costs for their customers. That is it is cheaper to pay Redhat then it is to try to go on your own... For a variety of reasons. It's not enough to just make your software cheaper to obtain then Windows. The savings from using Linux need to come from actual organizational savings that you can get from using it. Ubuntu needs to accomplish this.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 15:38 UTC (Tue) by AlexHudson (guest, #41828) [Link] (7 responses)

What your arguing is something along the lines that that since car tires are low margin then there is no point for automobiles to including wheels for customers.

No, what I'm saying is that you can't put the cart before the horse. Saying that Canonical's customers require high-level AD functionality and transparent Windows integration is simply wrong: their customers do *not* require that, because Ubuntu does not have these features and therefore people would not be using it (or be a customer) if it was a requirement.

Would Canonical attract more/different customers if it did have those features? Almost certainly. Should Canonical do this? For the reasons I outlined previously - that there is little money in it - the answer is obviously "no".

Canonical is already a jack of too many trades. They do not specialise in anything, except "Ubuntu", which as a marque covers everything from the OS to a music store to training. They're probably already too diversified as it stands; to diversify even further and attempt to directly aim at the SME market would be suicide. I'm not saying the market doesn't exist; clearly it does (cf. Zentyal). It makes no *business* sense for Canonical to address it directly like that, though.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 16:43 UTC (Tue) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (1 responses)

Doesn't all of this discussion assume that Canonical has "customers" ?

I'm not sure that's a valid assumption to make. Canonical has never released any hard numbers for their _paying_ customers for any of their services. Landscape is their longest running subscription service revenue stream and we've never, ever, seen them tout the uptake of that revenue generating service. And the usage numbers for that service they don't have to estimate, they know them in exact detail. And yet they have never even issued a trending statement that talks about relative growth. Does Canonical have customers? If they do Canonical doesn't seem real interest in talking about them. Instead of hearing Shuttleworth wax eloquent about his mythical 200 million user goal to rally the troups. I'd like to see him talk soberly about sustainability business priorities and about how he and the rest of the remaining Canonical Board getting the paying Canonical customerbase to 1% to 3% the size of the total Ubuntu userbase as a way to actually get Ubuntu to be self-sustaining. The entire Ubuntu ecosystem depends on Canonical as the managing entity of the project. If Canonical can't get their business priorities together, Ubuntu as a project loses.

-jef

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 17:08 UTC (Tue) by AlexHudson (guest, #41828) [Link]

They definitely have customers. I suspect, though, that the majority of their income is not via subscriptions - as you say, those products have not been around long enough (aside from Ubuntu itself, which they've bizarrely sworn off making money from directly - personally, I think that's nuts. $10 per copy of LTS is not going to rub anyone up the wrong way, and even if a few hundred thousand people bought it you're still talking millions of dollars).

So I rather imagine most of their income is via development projects with OEMs, the likes of litl, the consultancy for large Ubuntu deployments, all that malarkey. I don't think they would have ever gone down the Unity road in the first place unless there were OEM customers somehow stumping up for that work to happen.

However, are they making much money? I really like the idea that they've done a 10k desktop rollout in Germany: practically every other story like that from other vendors has gone bad in subsequent years, but this is a much more controlled environment, so should be more successful. At this stage, though, they should have many more case studies like that, so you have to think there aren't many of these big deployments about that they're supporting directly.

I also know that they've been handing out Landscape freebies to various people pour encourager les autres, so how much of a haircut they're taking on these various deals who knows - I'm pretty sure they are extremely keenly priced.

I think the problem is basically this: we assume they're not break-even yet, otherwise that would have been trumpeted already. We can also figure out that they're burning millions of dollars each year (has to be ballpark $10M when you consider staffing/office costs/etc.), and have done for the last few years (would have been much less in the early days).

So the question isn't, are they making millions of dollars in revenue, they must be. The question is, how many millions short are they, and what revenues are going to scale without scaling costs to meet that shortfall?

I'm personally not hugely worried that they don't release much information, no-one would realistically expect them to - no private business would ever do that. And as a non-Ubuntu user, the future of that ecosystem doesn't keep me awake at night either. Canonical will be here for years yet. Whether or not they continue to grow, though, or start years of minor cuts here and there and slide back - that wouldn't surprise me. The model was always one of artificial growth to capture market. It remains to be seen if the market is actually there.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 18:39 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (4 responses)

> No, what I'm saying is that you can't put the cart before the horse. Saying that Canonical's customers require high-level AD functionality and transparent Windows integration is simply wrong: their customers do *not* require that, because Ubuntu does not have these features and therefore people would not be using it (or be a customer) if it was a requirement.

Sorry.

I state it a different way:

If Canonical wants to have any hope succeeding in a market and getting _new_ customers then they will have to provide functionality that the vast majority of potential customers _REQUIRE_.

Directory services, identity management, certificate management, authentication management, strong authentication, distributed management informations, sane defaults, proper integration, etc etc.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 11, 2011 13:49 UTC (Wed) by jmalcolm (subscriber, #8876) [Link] (3 responses)

I think the disagreement comes on assumptions of who the customers should be. The audience you have identified needs these things. The other poster is saying that, since Ubuntu cannot profitably compete in those areas at the moment, they should focus on customers that do not require them.

It sounds like you believe that "all" potential customers require these things. Others disagree.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 11, 2011 14:01 UTC (Wed) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link] (2 responses)

Agreed - since the enterprise desktop Linux market is quite small and mostly covered by Red Hat, it makes more sense for Ubuntu to target other markets such as (perhaps) consumer and developer desktops/laptops/netbooks, enterprise servers, and cloud servers.

The main reasont to target consumer/developer client hardware is to "do a Microsoft" whereby people use Ubuntu at home or as their preferred development environment, creating pressure for it to be used as a production server environment for enterprise or cloud. In reality the client and server segments don't have that much to do with each other, but this "home to work pressure" does happen, and probably explains why Ubuntu is now commonly offered by Xen-based VPS providers.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 11, 2011 16:08 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

"home to work" is what got RedHat to be big in the datacenter. Since they have abandoned the home end of this (and no, I don't think that Fedora is a good replacement, it's too bleeding edge), the door is open for another distro to move in.

so far Ubuntu seems to be doing a good job of moving into the home space, and I think we are just starting to see the effect of this in the server space (mostly in the cloud options as noted)

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 11, 2011 18:23 UTC (Wed) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]

_The_Innovator's_Dilemma_ is worth reading. :)

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 17:35 UTC (Tue) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link] (6 responses)

I think your fundamental premise is wrong. Linux will never succeed by being a better Microsoft than Microsoft. If Samba, Libreoffice et al. ever catch up to the Windows LAN and Office stuff, it's because MS has decided this is the battlefield of the last war and has moved on to something else.

Heck, just look at market niches where Linux has been successful: embedded, Unix replacement, HPC, large-scale web infrastructure (google, Amazon, facebook, "cloud infrastructure" if you wish). All markets where cost-effectiveness really matters, and where Linux capabilities stand on their own without having to emulate some more or less undocumented/obfuscated interfaces of some other OS.

OTOH, look at Linux success in corporate desktops and the typical corporate desktop support infrastructure (AD, file serving, yadda yadda); Magic 8-ball says: Outlook not so good.

Same with Canonical vs. Redhat. Canonical is very unlikely to succeed in out-redhatting Redhat. Redhat has, for better or worse, pretty much sewn up the proprietary Unix replacement market, and are executing competently leaving little space for any newcomers in that niche.

So what is Canonical's target market then? Startups where Linux-savvy hipsters with fixie-bikes hack away at the next facebook, running Ubuntu both on desktops and server because that's what they know, while listening to music from the Ubuntu music service? Heck, I don't know.

tl;dr: Linux will not succeed by playing catchup with Microsoft. Canonical will not succeed by doing the same as Redhat.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 18:37 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (5 responses)

> I think your fundamental premise is wrong. Linux will never succeed by being a better Microsoft than Microsoft. If Samba, Libreoffice et al. ever catch up to the Windows LAN and Office stuff, it's because MS has decided this is the battlefield of the last war and has moved on to something else.

Ok, so then Ubuntu should give up on any hope of ever providing any OS to anybody wanting to us it beyond web servers?

Maybe It's my fault for using 'Active Directory'.

Is this like a dirty word or something? Doesn't anybody know what AD is actually used for?

> AD, file serving, yadda yadda); Magic 8-ball says: Outlook not so good.

If you think that that is all people use AD for then you massively mistaken.

There is a very good reason why Microsoft is now #1 in the server market.

Until you figure it out then there is really nothing more I can say to you. And, no... Office file formats or any illusionary monopoly on the desktop is only partially the reason.

> So what is Canonical's target market then? Startups where Linux-savvy hipsters with fixie-bikes hack away at the next facebook, running Ubuntu both on desktops and server because that's what they know, while listening to music from the Ubuntu music service? Heck, I don't know.

Their current target market is web servers because that is all that a standard Debian OS is good for for the vast majority of people.

If they want to be profitable and expand they need to do better then that.

> tl;dr: Linux will not succeed by playing catchup with Microsoft. Canonical will not succeed by doing the same as Redhat.

What Redhat does is, fundamentally, save customers money. You give money to Redhat because it's profitable for you to do so.

Unless Canonical can figure out how to do this then they have no reason to exist.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 19:34 UTC (Tue) by joib (subscriber, #8541) [Link] (4 responses)

> Ok, so then Ubuntu should give up on any hope of ever providing any OS to anybody wanting to us it beyond web servers?

No, because I don't believe that MS is a strong market leader enjoying massive network effects in every computing niche outside of web servers. In my previous post I even listed a number of niches were Linux is quite successful.

And, I have a fairly good idea of what AD is and what it's used for. Heck, we use it at work, and I even have some kind of certificate of attending an AD course at some point, although in reality I do almost exclusively Linux stuff. And I think AD is a decently good product, and more importantly, it's very well integrated into the whole "enterprise" Windows thing.

Which is one reason why I don't think it's feasible to create a "better AD than AD" in the foreseeable future. It's a *very* hard nut to crack. Heck, Samba's been at it for a couple of decades, and they're still playing catchup because MS has an army of programmers capable of adding new features (that customers, apparently, are willing to pay for) much faster than the relatively few Samba hackers can. One reason perhaps being that a mission statement of enabling corporate IT to do their jobs using Linux instead of Windows isn't exactly the kind of thing that warms the hearts of the untold legions of free software developers sitting in their basements looking for a worthy project to contribute to?

So what should Canonical do then? Well, as I said, I don't know. Though I'm quite sure that a head-on assault on the core market (a market which, as I mentioned previously, enjoys massive network effects and as a result is more or less a monopoly) of one of the biggest corporations in existence is unlikely to succeed.

And, also, I think the premise that Canonical cannot succeed without beating Microsoft in the corporate IT market is patently false. Heck, look at Apple; they seem to be doing fine (by most measures) while not caring at all about corporate IT. Or google, for that matter.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 20:15 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

I'm watching Samba4 development for about 5 years now (browsing their mailing list and checking code). It's painful to watch.

They've had to develop their own infrastructure, starting from 'smart pointers' (talloc) and replication (LDB), all of it in painful plain C. Some of it _might_ have been necessary, but it just feels wrong.

Besides, AD by now is 15-year old technology and it's showing its age. For example, PAC is a stinking crap: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/spatdsg/archive/2007/03/07/pac-va... LDAP itself is also a pile of horseshit. Kerberos is hard to use and has some glaring problems (inability to validate tickets offline is the foremost problem, broken trust infrastructure is another one).

A lightweight directory technology based on modern software (CouchDB for replication, modern programming language like Java/Erlang/Python for core code, scripting with JS, etc.) should be orders of magnitude easier to do.

In fact, I have a prototype in Python which can synchronize users between computers and present their data using LDAP emulation (for Thunderbird's address book) - it took me about 2 weeks to write it.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 22:27 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (2 responses)

For offline validation, refer to

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SSSD

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 22:32 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

That's not really what I meant. SSSD allows to _cache_ credentials, like Windows does.

True offline validation would allow one to login on a machine where they have never logged in before.

It's extremely easy with decentralized certificate-based auth systems - one just needs to provide a valid private key. It can be done by decrypting a pre-replicated private key by password entered from keyboard or by plugging in hardware token containing it.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 11, 2011 4:35 UTC (Wed) by mlh (guest, #74850) [Link]

More the related http://www.freeipa.org/ project

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 17:48 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (2 responses)

Yeah. An ActiveDirectory replacement is needed ASAP. Like, yesterday.

I've seen companies buy specialized Windows servers just to support AD and then use it for other services. I've done this myself, it's scary how easy it is to setup a managed network with IPSec and group policies in Windows. Alas, Samba4 even if successful won't really replace AD so we need something more powerful.

I'm thinking about creating a 'CouchDirectory' suite, based on simple replicated CouchDB database to store account data. It'll solve one of the big problems in ActiveDirectory - offline operations.

Kerberos-based single sign-on can easily be decentralized as well - there's no need for a trusted third party if assymetric crypto is used.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 18:49 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (1 responses)

> Alas, Samba4 even if successful won't really replace AD so we need something more powerful.

It's a good start. It provides the basic services you need to build more complex functionality. It's a integrated product and can be deployed easily rather then trying to piece together things from a half a dozen different projects. It can also serve as the front-end to other directory services. Supports Kerberos and all sorts of other basic network services that people require.

Besides the whole windows compatibility it also provides the best file server that Linux has.

But it's just one part.

Another part would be to use Redhat's SSSD daemon and get rid of the horror that is custom nsswitch configurations and nscd....

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 10, 2011 19:19 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Personally, I'd prefer to ditch Kerberos altogether and replace it with something else. Particularly, MS's perverted version which tries to combine authentication and authorization (PAC), poorly.

And yes, SSS[SSS]D is mighty nice.

<secret disclosure>I'm (my company) trying to port it to Windows (or more precisely, write a similar Windows version), with some success</secret disclosure>

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 11, 2011 8:25 UTC (Wed) by AndreE (guest, #60148) [Link] (1 responses)

How exactly is this that different from any other distro? Linux in general has a problem with hardware compatibility.

The argument against Ubuntu seems to be that they are trying to be popular.

Ubuntu resources vs. quality

Posted May 11, 2011 9:18 UTC (Wed) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link]

It's difficult for all distros, but my point was that Ubuntu could and should focus more on quality, almost as a differentiator, because there are many people who simply want a very reliable, secure desktop OS with which to browse the web, do office docs, play casual games, etc. One of the reasons Windows 7 is doing well is that it works quite reliably now compared to XP and earlier, and Ubuntu needs to improve its quality to keep up.

I haven't got recent experience with many other desktop distros other than mini live CDs, so I was only talking about Ubuntu.

I use Ubuntu on various PCs but I'm getting tired of the hardware problems. On one PC in particular there's a frequent freeze that is hard to diagnose, and it's using proven mainstream hardware with open source drivers (Intel GMA3100, H55 chipset, etc). The same PC only half-works with KMS (the framebuffer hangs in Ubuntu recovery mode, though Xorg works OK).

The lack of vendor support for drivers can't be used as an excuse, as all my Ubuntu PCs were built from scratch with Linux-friendly components, and are using LTSs that are 1 year old at least, so there has been time to fix distro bugs. I've had to apply all_generic_ide and irqpoll to another PC with similarly boring hardware to stop a hard freeze, and use a non-standard kernel on a third PC to get a WiFi driver that works.

The problem may well be upstream of Ubuntu - if there was a really widespread automated regression testing of Linux kernels and Xorg, that would at least help flush out the regressions introduced by new kernels and get rid of many freezes/crashes.

Having an Ubuntu that works would be far more useful to me than going for Wayland and Unity, which are bound to introduce even more code that needs debugging. I don't have a problem with the Ubuntu cloud strategy as that makes sense and has few hardware issues, but they should really consolidate and fix Ubuntu on the desktop before throwing even more new technology into it.

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 10, 2011 1:56 UTC (Tue) by xxiao (guest, #9631) [Link] (5 responses)

I do use ubuntu for daily work, however I'm more and more concerned about Mark's moves these days and am getting ready back to debian anytime. Some of the projects I deal with are using ubuntu LTS by default, I feel 10.04 probably will be my last one.

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 10, 2011 3:49 UTC (Tue) by idupree (guest, #71169) [Link] (4 responses)

Also, Debian has been getting stronger.

And even unpatched upstream development has better autoconfiguration than in the past:

(For example I run Arch Linux which hardly patches at all, and I didn't need to do anything to make Xorg work when I installed Arch last year. Two or three years ago Xorg required configuration, at least on my hardware...even sometimes on Ubuntu!)

Thank Red Hat, Intel and AMD for that

Posted May 10, 2011 12:01 UTC (Tue) by wtogami (subscriber, #32325) [Link]

Upstream getting stronger including your Xorg example is largely due to investments made by Red Hat, Intel and AMD.

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 10, 2011 14:18 UTC (Tue) by tpo (subscriber, #25713) [Link] (2 responses)

> Also, Debian has been getting stronger.

I don't know in which sense.

Since I went back from Ubuntu to Debian on my laptop with an extremely standard Intel GM965/GL960 video chipset, wakeup from RAM is not reliable at all any more, when in Ubuntu it was finally rock solid.

And the upgrade to squeeze of our servers was the most tiring ever: a lot of manual interaction and I'm still not finished. A *smooth* upgrade took something over an hour of "standing by" in average. Compared to upgrading our only Ubuntu server from the before last (!) LTS to the current one, which only took 13min, no questions asked, no manual interaction at all needed.

What's very annoying with Debian upgrades is the million of questions asked, grub1 -> grub2 upgrade requires *2* reboots, preparing for insserv boot was laborous, postgres 8.3 doesn't even boot properly any more, munin breaks with config files that were working just fine previously, etc. etc. etc.

Not very thrilling.

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 10, 2011 20:48 UTC (Tue) by mikov (guest, #33179) [Link] (1 responses)

That is funny. I recently upgraded several servers from Lenny to Squeeze with zero trouble, and at least three were running PostgreSQL 8.3.

At the same time, my last Ubuntu upgrade made my laptop unusable for about a week.

Which only goes to show that your or my individual experiences are meaningless :-)

Meanwhile LTS bugs like this one https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/resolvconf/+bug... are still present in Ubuntu a year later.

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 11, 2011 8:34 UTC (Wed) by AndreE (guest, #60148) [Link]

which actually goes to show that upgrading in itself is a dangerous exercise, and safe upgrading is still a problem that hasn't been solved

Ubuntu cloud chief beats CTO to exit door (The Register)

Posted May 10, 2011 3:18 UTC (Tue) by tdwebste (guest, #18154) [Link]

Linux Mint has been my answer.

I have moved all Ubuntu users to Mint 10. I fully expect to migrate these users to Mint 11 in early June.


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