Modern desktops
Modern desktops
Posted Apr 14, 2011 15:31 UTC (Thu) by me@jasonclinton.com (subscriber, #52701)In reply to: Modern desktops by corbet
Parent article: Ubuntu reaffirms Unity plan for 11.04
I also think it's rather odd that anyone would characterize FFM as "working" today since there are a number of applications which utterly fail when it is enabled.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 15:37 UTC (Thu)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Apr 14, 2011 15:52 UTC (Thu)
by me@jasonclinton.com (subscriber, #52701)
[Link] (3 responses)
Eclipse also has some pretty serious input field focusing issues that, last I checked, had not been resolved.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 18:34 UTC (Thu)
by Zizzle (guest, #67739)
[Link]
Now GTK themes on the other hand can make it unusable.
The other proprietary crap you mention I have no experience with. I wouldn't call FFM broken, I would call those apps broken.
Posted Apr 14, 2011 23:25 UTC (Thu)
by neilbrown (subscriber, #359)
[Link] (1 responses)
I think I could probably get used to click-to-focus - after all it is what we use and expect for panes in a window (i.e. to type in the URL bar I have to click there, not just move my mouse there). However what I couldn't get used to is "click raises window" which often seems to accompany "click to focus".
Posted Apr 17, 2011 0:33 UTC (Sun)
by speedster1 (guest, #8143)
[Link]
Posted Apr 14, 2011 16:11 UTC (Thu)
by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742)
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Alex
Posted Apr 14, 2011 19:56 UTC (Thu)
by newren (subscriber, #5160)
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Posted Apr 14, 2011 20:05 UTC (Thu)
by dmadsen (guest, #14859)
[Link] (25 responses)
Click-to-focus is the aberration as far as I'm concerned. If I can't get FFM working, then the desktop is useless to me.
BTW, even Windows has FFM via TweakUI.
Perhaps the best fix for this bug is "find another distro"?
Posted Apr 14, 2011 20:17 UTC (Thu)
by me@jasonclinton.com (subscriber, #52701)
[Link] (24 responses)
But it really requires a kind of denial on the level of heliocentrism to look at the data[1] and claim that your way is the most popular way and that the 99%+ of everyone is the "aberration."
[1] http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-201003-201103
Posted Apr 15, 2011 1:41 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (20 responses)
Since Linux has something like 1% of the desktop market share, why don't you just give up and use Windows?
Posted Apr 17, 2011 13:59 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (19 responses)
If you want to give up your Linux desktop then it's your choice. But if you want to keep it (as I do) then you must accept that you are a minority and you must fight for survival. If new things comes around and it only works with Windows (like DHCP, UPnP or whatever) then it's your responsibility to change Linux Desktop and make it usable with a new technology. Nobody will do anything just for you - except may be some small and simple tweaks. Yes somehow FFM-lovers feel they are entitled to support: when something comes around and breaks FFM they don't roll up sleeves and don't supply patches but instead complain and bitch around. It'll not help, sorry.
Posted Apr 17, 2011 14:08 UTC (Sun)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (18 responses)
they don't roll up sleeves and don't supply patches but instead complain and bitch around
Umm... no. When GNOME went off the rails for me several years ago, I just switched. There are plenty of competitive desktop environments and window managers that don't feel the need to completely redo the user interface just for the hell of it.
If GNOME developers take the attitude "we broke it; you fix it" then they'll simply shed users.
Posted Apr 17, 2011 14:50 UTC (Sun)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (15 responses)
Ah, cool. They are you discussing it now? Why the GNOME and Ubuntu developers bothers you at all? I sue don't lose sleep over changes in MacOS X UI because I don't use MacOS X, if you don't use GNOME and Ubuntu then why are you discussing them? Why are so sure? If they'll acquire even one new user for each lost one (not a big problem considering number of non-Linux users out there) then it'll be net win. Sure when/if Linux will have over 90% market penetration this approach will be stupid, but for now it's pretty good idea if implemented correctly. I'm not sure Unity is or GNOME Shell implement it correctly but they come from right initial POV: most user don't change defaults. Ever. So if you want to win the most market share you must cater to the needs of these users. But then constant barrage of changes is probably not a good idea either: you need a balance. Apple does it the best: when you slowly and gradually change the UI most people will accept it (and you can replace stupid choices with saner ones), but if you constantly redo everything... people just abandon you platform - and this is exactly what Ubuntu is doing with Unity. We'll see how it'll turn out, but today Ubuntu does pretty good even if not spectacular.
Posted Apr 18, 2011 17:36 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (14 responses)
Ah, cool. They [sic] are you discussing it now?
Because I'm interested in the topic. Am I not allowed to discuss software unless I don't use it?
If they'll acquire even one new user for each lost one (not a big problem considering number of non-Linux users out there) then it'll be net win.
Sorry. That will be a disaster. If GNOME (or KDE or any other Linux desktop) thinks it can go head-to-head with Microsoft [let's face it: MSFT users are the only source of non-UNIX users for GNOME to attract], then it is doomed. MSFT will steamroll all competitors in the desktop market and it's time we faced that fact.
The fact is that GNOME runs the huge risk of alienating many of its existing users for the uncertain promise of attracting new users. Well guess what? Windows users won't care if GNOME's interface is twice as intuitive as Windows, twice as fast, twice as reliable and twice as fun. They'll only care that their pet applications do not run on Linux and abandon ship as soon as $SOME_CUTE_ADWARE_APP does not run.
Linux has a small but dedicated population of desktop users. It's not about to gain very many desktop users away from Windows, so it might as well strive to keep its existing users happy.
Posted Apr 18, 2011 17:37 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
Am I not allowed to discuss software unless I don't use it?
s/don't //, obviously. :(
Posted Apr 18, 2011 20:57 UTC (Mon)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (12 responses)
Talk about clueless. Business does not operate this way. Business is supposed to bring profit. Existing desktop users don't bring a profit. That's the problem. Sorry, but no. MacOS was able to carve sizable niche - it's not clear why Linux can not do the same. The prudent choice if we accept the fact that Microsoft can not be beaten is abandonment of desktop - pull funding, leave it to the community, stop paying developers who develop things for desktop. Sorry, but this effect somehow does not work for MacOS users. Yes, I know: the only explanation is RDF. Great explanation. Not.
Posted Apr 18, 2011 22:40 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (11 responses)
Business does not operate this way. Business is supposed to bring profit. Existing desktop users don't bring a profit. That's the problem.
I was unaware that GNOME was in business to make profit.
Sorry, but no. MacOS was able to carve sizable niche - it's not clear why Linux can not do the same.
Umm... it's pretty clear to me. Apple is a marketing machine par excellence with a charismatic Dear Leader, unwavering focus, a massive cash flow and unbelievably zealous fanbois who are ready to snap up the latest in Steve Jobs Coolness.
Linux just doesn't have that kind of user base.
The prudent choice if we accept the fact that Microsoft can not be beaten is abandonment of desktop - pull funding, leave it to the community, stop paying developers who develop things for desktop.
Not at all. Many businesses thrive in niche markets. I run a business that's totally in a niche market. We just have to accept that the Linux desktop is a niche market and operate accordingly.
Sorry, but this effect somehow does not work for MacOS users.
MacOS has enough commercial software, games and silly commercial apps to keep unsophisticated users happy. Linux does not.
Believe me, I'd love to see Linux grab huge desktop market share. I've used it since 1994 (and not used any other OS on my desktop since then) so I'd be ecstatic if it took over the desktop. But it won't. I'm just being realistic.
I don't care that Linux won't take over the desktop, either. Its niche market is big enough for a healthy userbase and a good ecosystem, and that's just fine with me. If you want to go head to head with Microsoft on the desktop, good luck, but history is littered with the corpses of those who tried.
Posted Apr 19, 2011 4:22 UTC (Tue)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (10 responses)
Sorry, but all these factors were in place for years (Jobs returned to Apple in 1998 and MacOS X was released in 2001). Market share was stagnant for years till about 2005. Not yet. But it's not clear to me why do you think it's impossible for Ubuntu to get it. It's still young: first release was six years ago. Apple got "Steve Jobs Coolness" back in 1996. Yet for years Apple continued as niche player. Fanbois were there but there were not enough of them to make a comeback. Yet it happened. It took years and there are still many times more software for Windows. No, you are not. You position is different: I'd love to see Linux grab huge market share... but not at my expense. Because the required ingredient of the "consumer desktop" is plenty of ISVs and plenty of ISVs need uniform platform. And that means that all these fancy things (like FFM or, even worse, multiple WMs) should go. They may exist... but outside of the "supported" configuration. Take a look on Android: it's biggest problem right now is fragmentation. Google fights it valiantly because it's already a huge problem... even if it's nothing like Linux desktop fragmentation... even when only single distribution is used. I don't see the need to introduce third major flavor of Linux (in addition to KDE4 and GNOME3) - this looks like pro-fragmentation move, but perhaps Canonical can convince everyone to use it's version, who knows.
Posted Apr 19, 2011 7:38 UTC (Tue)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link]
The reason why Apple didn't take off years ago was that they didn't have anything to sell to the general public. Apple computers were generally perceived to be comparatively expensive and owning one basically marked you as a graphic designer or PR weenie. That game changed when Apple introduced the iPod and, later, the iPhone; these were still expensive within their respective fields, but they were lifestyle items rather than (dorky) PCs, and helped convince people to take a second look at Apple's PC offerings, too. The main difference between Canonical and Apple is that, unlike Canonical, Apple is a hardware company. Apple is in business to sell computers (and other gadgets), and MacOS exists because these computers need an operating system that is not Windows (otherwise, why buy a Mac?). People tend to purchase Apple's offerings – at a premium – not because of their overwhelming technical excellence but because of the slick overall impression they give. Since the hardware and OS are produced by the same manufacturer, they work well together, and Apple's customers are willing to pay extra for the comparative lack of hassle and the »coolness« they derive from walking around with a phone that has a prominent Apple logo on the back. Also unlike Canonical, Apple has been around for a while, and even people who don't actually own any Apple products generally know that the company exists and what it does.
Canonical, on the other hand, has problems getting people to pay for their product at all. In any case, it doesn't come with a computer attached, and while installing it on the computer that you already have is no longer »rocket science«, it is still a big step for most Windows users, and there can be snags (or the fear of running into snags) that spoil people's fun and act as a strong disincentive against switching over. If Canonical really wanted to make an (Apple-shaped) dent into the Windows market, they would have to sell computers with Ubuntu pre-installed and working – and of course not just computers, but computers where already the case looked different from the run-of-the-mill PC, just to make it obvious that something else was happening. Even then it would be an uphill struggle – today, if people see you using a Mac, they think you're trendy; if they see you using an Ubuntu box, they think you're a geek.
Posted Apr 19, 2011 11:29 UTC (Tue)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (8 responses)
But it's not clear to me why do you think it's impossible for Ubuntu to get it
Apple is a massive consumer electronics company. It sells huge quantities of cool hardware and music. Mac OS X is more-or-less incidental to the hardware sales; Apple has an integrated suite of products that reinforce one another in a "virtuous circle".
Canonical has... Ubuntu, one of dozens of Linux distros. (A popular one to be sure, but nothing that special.)
Because the required ingredient of the "consumer desktop" is plenty of ISVs and plenty of ISVs need uniform platform.
That will never happen in Linux. Its users are simply too ornery and opinionated (and that's a good thing, btw.) If you want to be a Linux ISV as my company is, you have to deal with that fact. It's not the end of the world. (I don't know how old you are, but I've been following the UNIX wars since the early 1980's. You should learn from history that UNIX/Linux users tend to be adamant about what they like and unwilling to be herded along by software developers.)
I don't see the need to introduce third major flavor of Linux (in addition to KDE4 and GNOME3
KDE and GNOME are not "flavors" of Linux. They're basically overgrown window managers. I use neither KDE nor GNOME, yet KDE and GNOME applications run just fine on my desktop (XFCE4). It's not like you need One True Desktop to rule the world to run Linux.
Posted Apr 19, 2011 12:11 UTC (Tue)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (5 responses)
Right. And this is what they are trying to fix. But you need it to get adoption on desktop. Thankfully Microsoft splintered it's OS, so you don't need total uniformity, but as long as you must test your program with different settings to satisfy more then trivial percent of user... Linux will lose. When (and if) ISVs will start closing bugs with "I'm using XFCE4" text as "WONTFIX, please try with Unity instead" we'll be able to say that yes, first step on the road to the world domination on desktop is achieved. Linux won server when it dropped all incompatible versions of kernel, libc, c compiler (gcc 2.96 vs pgcc vs ... shudder): when it become easier to develop for Linux rather then for Unix. Sadly it only happened on the lowest level of stack. Upper levels are still in disarray. Infrastructure becomes more and more standard, but upper echelons of UI are wildly different - and this is extremely bad thing from ISVs POV. I don't really see why duplication of effort and myriads of half-backed offers are better then few solid solutions is "a good thing", but I'm not sure it'll continue forever. Till it continues most ISVs will ignore Linux. Yes, few ISVs will decide to "deal with it", but most will wait. I'm not sure how it'll be fixed: may be Ubuntu will become so popular it'll be "standard-de-facto", may be it'll adopt Dalvik and make it possible to run Android software, may be something else will happen, but I just don't see Ubuntu adopting the philosophy "users are simply too ornery and opinionated - and that's a good thing". From the day 1 when they decided to adopt GNOME and not include KDE they did things this way. Ubuntu was always about mainstream consumer desktop, not about few stray Linux users. The fact that it didn't achieve these goals yet does not mean it should or would abandon it.
Posted Apr 19, 2011 12:54 UTC (Tue)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (4 responses)
Thankfully Microsoft splintered it's OS, so you don't need total uniformity, but as long as you must test your program with different settings to satisfy more then trivial percent of user... Linux will lose.
Writing apps that work across a variety of window manager and desktops is a solved problem. It was solved decades ago. But because of the continual reinvention of the wheel by GNOME and KDE and their conscious or unconscious decisions to deprecate decades of X Window and UNIX tradition, it becomes annoying.
And completely revamping the UI serves no useful purpose as far as making it easier to write cross-desktop applications. With Unity, GNOME is diverging even further from other desktops and causing even more confusion and fragmentation.
I don't really see why duplication of effort and myriads of half-backed offers are better then few solid solutions is "a good thing"
"Half baked?" KDE users seem to think that KDE is a fine desktop. I happen to think that XFCE4 is great. And I'm sure many GNOME 2.x users are perfectly happy with it. A huge change of direction in UI is not necessary and not useful. It's simply the result of self-absorbed developers scratching their own itch. [There's nothing wrong with that as far as it goes, but don't pretend it's part of a noble effort to unify the Linux desktop and increase Linux adoption.]
Linux UI developers need to learn a few things: Linux on the desktop is niche, is likely to remain niche, and there's nothing wrong with that. They also need to learn that major changes in UI are very unlikely to attract people away from non-Linux systems, but are quite likely to annoy existing users. And they also need to learn that GNOME, KDE and XFCE alone cannot dictate to others the direction of UI development, so there is absolutely zero chance of a One True Linux UI. Rather, GNOME, KDE, XFCE et al. should work together on incremental improvements, unification of look-and-feel and updating of core desktop conventions so that ISVs can more easily write cross-desktop applications. I know there's already a lot of this work going on. Unity is a step in the wrong direction, creating divergence instead of convergence.
Posted Apr 19, 2011 13:32 UTC (Tue)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (3 responses)
Solved? I think not. If by solved you mean "you can run them... somehow" then yes. If by solved you mean "you can run them... and you can use the same UI in all of them" then no - it was not solved back then and it's not solved now. Even MacOS have not solved it fully, but it comes close... unless you'll run X Window System and the ported zoo - which few people do. Right. But it was never a goal. I'm perfectly fine with Ubuntu Lucid. I'm quite sure I'll be happy with Ubuntu 12.04 too (I don't yet know how it'll be called). I think they finally understood that. The solution? Stop trying to unify Linux. Create separate branch which will have unified look and feel, where all programs will work in the same way and where the whole thing will be "bigger then the sum of parts". Kinda like what Google did with Linux for the mobiles. Ubuntu does not have the resources Google has so it can not to redo everything at once - they are revamping Ubuntu desktop one piece at time instead. I'm not sure I like all their changes but I know I don't like "Linux zoo" even more. Heck, I wanted to abandon Linux for MacOS, but found that it's too difficult to live without real hardware Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys. I still might if this "Linux on the desktop is niche, is likely to remain niche, and there's nothing wrong with that" hoopla will continue. They are trying to do something for last ten years. The end result is still a mess. Both from API point of view and from UI point of view. This is risky step, true. But if they'll find out (as they hope) that their vision is shared by most Linux users (because most Linux users will be Ubuntu users) then in few years time network effect will drive all other efforts away (they will remain a niche players but few users will care... and most ISVs will not care either) and the problem of Linux desktop UI unification will finally be solved (in practical terms). I'm not sure it'll work - but it's interesting approach nonetheless.
Posted Apr 19, 2011 13:53 UTC (Tue)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link] (2 responses)
Solved? I think not. If by solved you mean "you can run them... somehow" then yes.
That is what I meant.
you can use the same UI in all of them" then no - it was not solved back then and it's not solved now.
As you note, that (non-)problem is not solved on Windows or Mac OS X either.
This is risky step, true. But if they'll find out (as they hope) that their vision is shared by most Linux users (because most Linux users will be Ubuntu users) then in few years time network effect will drive all other efforts away...
I doubt that will happen for a number of reasons. First, while Ubuntu may have a lot of users, it cannot by any stretch of the imagination completely drive the direction of Linux. Secondly, with open-source software, niche systems can survive an awfully long time because there is no economic pressure for them to die. (Witness the new release of FVWM.) Third, and most significantly, do you really think Ubuntu will be happy with Unity after a while? I bet not. They'll revamp it again and again, changing directions time after time. This is classic Corel behaviour and is a recipe for disaster.
Sometimes you have to avoid change just for the sake of change and concentrate on incremental improvements.
Posted Apr 19, 2011 20:44 UTC (Tue)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
It's mostly solved. There are different degrees. I can tolerate different interface in one or two my main tools (I interact with them for a long time every day so even if they are somehow strange and unique - I'll adopt), I can tolerate it if I have no alternative (like if the program I really need is only available in a form with non-standard interface), but in general I prefer a platform which supports unified look-and-feel. I've used Linux on servers for years but only switched to it on desktop with Ubuntu Lucid (the only reason why I've switched to Ubuntu Lucid and not to MacOS is because I really feel lost without hardware Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys... I still might if Ubuntu will screw up too bad). I think they finally understood that. That's why they decided to abandon their tries to talk with other parties and concentrated on growing the userbase: if Ubuntu will have enough users then the network effect will drive the ISVs to Ubuntu as well. At this point it'll be not important what exactly will happen in "wide, wild Linux world": they can borrow interesting libraries and components from it but otherwise they can just ignore it. Yet the exact same model works just fine for Adobe (Photoshop and Illustrator), Apple (MacOS and iPhone), Microsoft (Windows and Office) and numerous other companies. I think it's question of balance. Well... it looks to me like this is exactly what Ubuntu is doing. First they moved the buttons, then they changed the panel, then they moved menu, after some time they will change something else. All changes are small and incremental. I don't like all of them but I don't see nothing too onerous. Ubuntu is "Linux for Human Beings" - and human beings are not obsessed with minutiae details. They can switch to new layout given few years (witness Office 2003 to 2007 migration), but when every program offers it's own unique interface... they bail out. Yes, I know, there are picky and demanding *nix users - but there are so few of them they can be safely ignored.
Posted Apr 20, 2011 9:12 UTC (Wed)
by spaetz (guest, #32870)
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Posted Apr 19, 2011 12:37 UTC (Tue)
by anselm (subscriber, #2796)
[Link] (1 responses)
No, but it does help if the most commonly used applications share a »look and feel«, which is where the added value of desktop environments like KDE and GNOME comes in. Microsoft and especially Apple have put very considerable effort into making their systems work as a cohesive whole, and if your plan is to get people to switch from MacOS or Windows to Linux you had better offer them a compelling user experience rather than a hodgepodge of different styles, even though applications from various backgrounds may all run fine on the same screen from a technical point of view.
In that sense it is misleading to refer to GNOME or KDE as »overgrown window managers«, when window management is only a very small part of what they actually do, and when in fact the window managers that come with these very large software packages can straightforwardly be replaced with other implementations.
Posted Apr 19, 2011 12:44 UTC (Tue)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
In that sense it is misleading to refer to GNOME or KDE as "overgrown window managers", when window management is only a very small part of what they actually do
Maybe. But as far as I'm concerned, window management is the only useful part. :) I like to get stuff done and have the "desktop environment" stay out of my way.
Posted Apr 17, 2011 15:08 UTC (Sun)
by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458)
[Link] (1 responses)
If you dumped Gnome, it's of no intereset for you, surely... Besides, if some long-used feature has no place in the proposed way of doing things, or is a hinderance for some mayority (or even a sizeable minority) of users for little percieved gain, it should go. Sorry if it's your pet feature. If it really matters to you, you are more than welcome to work on putting it back (i.e., show a reasonable design, propose patches, give reasoned feedback through bug reports).
Posted Apr 18, 2011 17:40 UTC (Mon)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
If you dumped Gnome, it's of no intereset for you, surely
Why is that? Can one not comment on software unless one uses it? I slag Windows all the time, but I haven't used it in over a decade. :)
Sorry if it's your pet feature. If it really matters to you, you are more than welcome to work on putting it back (i.e., show a reasonable design, propose patches, give reasoned feedback through bug reports).
Why should I bother when there are alternatives? In the past when I was using GNOME programs, I tried to make a case for features I thought were sensible (for example, an external editor for composing mail in Evolution) and got nowhere. It was far simpler to switch to a different project and that's what many GNOME users will do.
If GNOME thinks they'll get a net increase of users, then I guess their calculations make sense. I am very doubtful, though.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 1:49 UTC (Fri)
by dskoll (subscriber, #1630)
[Link]
Those statistics are for operating systems, not for the number of people who use focus-follows-mouse.
Another thing: Most Windows users don't use FFM for two reasons: It used to be very difficult to enable, and even when enabled, it doesn't work very well. Microsoft can get away with this because it is a monopoly and can force dumb UI decisions down users' throats.
GNOME is not Microsoft. If you push crap at your users, your users will abandon you. That's the beauty of choice.
Posted Apr 15, 2011 6:00 UTC (Fri)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
Posted Apr 16, 2011 1:39 UTC (Sat)
by leoc (guest, #39773)
[Link]
FFM works fine for me. Which applications "utterly fail"?
Modern desktops
Modern desktops
Modern desktops
Modern desktops
If you have two images open and the layers dialog as well, then the layers dialog shows the layers for the focused image.
So if, as I move the mouse from the image I am working on to the layers dialogue, it passes over a different gimp image window, the layers dialog suddenly changes to the 'wrong' window.
Modern desktops
Modern desktops
Modern desktops
I think it's a safe assumption--on their part--that the number of people who care about FFM might be immeasurable within statistical noise.
Or perhaps they believe (as I do) that those who care about FFM are statistically much more likely to be capable future window manager maintainers, and also are much more likely to be motivated to roll up their sleeves and try to fix things when one of their most beloved features is missing/broken. Hey, Gnome 2 got a window manager maintainer for a few years that way...
(However, I don't think it'll work for Unity since the copyright assignment requirements in my opinion will kill most any such initiative from individuals in the community.)
I also think it's rather odd that anyone would characterize FFM as "working" today since there are a number of applications which utterly fail when it is enabled.
I'd be tempted to argue that the number of applications which utterly fail when FFM is enabled is immeasurable within statistical noise. ;-) But then I might just be showing my biases, since I have learned of a few such applications, and I instead just count my lucky stars that I don't have reason to use any of them.
Modern desktops
Modern desktops
Modern desktops
It's your choice...
It's your choice...
Hmm... Then why all this vitriol now?
Umm... no. When GNOME went off the rails for me several years ago, I just switched.
If GNOME developers take the attitude "we broke it; you fix it" then they'll simply shed users.
Hmm... Then why all this vitriol now?
Hmm... Then why all this vitriol now?
WOW...
Linux has a small but dedicated population of desktop users. It's not about to gain very many desktop users away from Windows, so it might as well strive to keep its existing users happy.
If GNOME (or KDE or any other Linux desktop) thinks it can go head-to-head with Microsoft [let's face it: MSFT users are the only source of non-UNIX users for GNOME to attract], then it is doomed. MSFT will steamroll all competitors in the desktop market and it's time we faced that fact.
Windows users won't care if GNOME's interface is twice as intuitive as Windows, twice as fast, twice as reliable and twice as fun. They'll only care that their pet applications do not run on Linux and abandon ship as soon as $SOME_CUTE_ADWARE_APP does not run.
WOW...
Why it didn't work years, then?
Apple is a marketing machine par excellence with a charismatic Dear Leader, unwavering focus, a massive cash flow and unbelievably zealous fanbois who are ready to snap up the latest in Steve Jobs Coolness.
Linux just doesn't have that kind of user base.
MacOS has enough commercial software, games and silly commercial apps to keep unsophisticated users happy. Linux does not.
Believe me, I'd love to see Linux grab huge desktop market share. I've used it since 1994 (and not used any other OS on my desktop since then) so I'd be ecstatic if it took over the desktop. But it won't. I'm just being realistic.
Why it didn't work years, then?
Why it didn't work years, then?
Well, they are working on it...
Canonical has... Ubuntu, one of dozens of Linux distros. (A popular one to be sure, but nothing that special.)
KDE and GNOME are not "flavors" of Linux. They're basically overgrown window managers. I use neither KDE nor GNOME, yet KDE and GNOME applications run just fine on my desktop (XFCE4). It's not like you need One True Desktop to rule the world to run Linux.
That will never happen in Linux. Its users are simply too ornery and opinionated (and that's a good thing, btw.) If you want to be a Linux ISV as my company is, you have to deal with that fact.
Well, they are working on it...
Well, they are working on it...
Writing apps that work across a variety of window manager and desktops is a solved problem. It was solved decades ago.
And completely revamping the UI serves no useful purpose as far as making it easier to write cross-desktop applications.
And I'm sure many GNOME 2.x users are perfectly happy with it.
And they also need to learn that GNOME, KDE and XFCE alone cannot dictate to others the direction of UI development, so there is absolutely zero chance of a One True Linux UI.
Rather, GNOME, KDE, XFCE et al. should work together on incremental improvements, unification of look-and-feel and updating of core desktop conventions so that ISVs can more easily write cross-desktop applications.
Unity is a step in the wrong direction, creating divergence instead of convergence.
Well, they are working on it...
It's all about your goals
you can use the same UI in all of them" then no - it was not solved back then and it's not solved now.
As you note, that (non-)problem is not solved on Windows or Mac OS X either.First, while Ubuntu may have a lot of users, it cannot by any stretch of the imagination completely drive the direction of Linux.
Third, and most significantly, do you really think Ubuntu will be happy with Unity after a while? I bet not. They'll revamp it again and again, changing directions time after time. This is classic Corel behaviour and is a recipe for disaster.
Sometimes you have to avoid change just for the sake of change and concentrate on incremental improvements.
It's all about your goals
> Yet the exact same model works just fine for Adobe (Photoshop and Illustrator), Apple (MacOS and iPhone), Microsoft (Windows and Office) and numerous other companies. I think it's question of balance.
Market cap and employees:
AAPL $309.92B (2 of 4683)
around 37k employees
MSFT $215.17B (5 of 4683)
> 100k employees
ADBE $16.98B (288 of 4683, 48 of 839 in Application Software)
>9k employees
Canonical (?)
320 employees
Spot the difference :)
Why it didn't work years, then?
It's not like you need One True Desktop to rule the world to run Linux.
Why it didn't work years, then?
It's your choice...
It's your choice...
Modern desktops
Modern desktops
Although it isn't quite the same as FFM, Apple added scrolling-follows-mouse into OS X leopard.
Modern desktops