The Ada Initiative takes a different approach

Posted Feb 20, 2011 19:52 UTC (Sun) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106)
In reply to: The Ada Initiative takes a different approach by giraffedata
Parent article: The Ada Initiative takes a different approach

Well, they would be fighting against a long and distinguished history of using plurals as a more formal / honorific variant of the corresponding singular pronouns. For example, consider the royal use of "we" in place of "I", or the use of "thou" when referring to an individual. ("Thou" was the plural form of "you" before it fell into disuse.) Substituting "they" for "he" or "she" is just another variant on the same pattern.

The Ada Initiative takes a different approach

Posted Feb 20, 2011 20:23 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

No, the plural form of "you" is "ye", and it's still in regular use (in wide parts of the British isles, by geography - northern england, some scottish dialects, Ireland). An equivalent modern corruption is also in use in places: "yous". Plural "you" is perhaps one of the few simplifications of english grammar that is clamouring to be undone.

"Thou" and "thee" are also still in daily use, though restricted to parts of northern england.

The Ada Initiative takes a different approach

Posted Feb 20, 2011 21:01 UTC (Sun) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link]

Thanks for the correction. Here in the U.S. we don't hear "ye" or "thee" or "thou" very much, so it's easy to get them wrong. To add to the confusion, "ye" is more often used (mistakenly) in place of "the" in names like "Ye Olde Towne Square" simply because an older version of the alphabet used a symbol for "th" which looks rather like a modern "y".

Wikipedia has a table of English personal pronoun forms, including "thou"/"ye" and "thee"/"you", for those who, like myself, tend to mix them up: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou#Declension>.

Anyway, it's nice to know that these older forms are still in use elsewhere in the world. I thought they'd died out long ago.

The Ada Initiative takes a different approach

Posted Feb 25, 2011 21:19 UTC (Fri) by steffen780 (guest, #68142) [Link]

I lived in the NW and NE England (Leeds and Manchester) from 2002 to 2010 (including sharing a flat/house with people from e.g. Widnes, Bradford, Huddersfield and Sheffield) and I have never heard or seen "ye", "thou" or "thee" except in pub names, bible references/quotes and similiar contexts. Maybe it's still used in villages, but they're certainly not in daily use in the cities.

The Ada Initiative takes a different approach

Posted Feb 20, 2011 21:25 UTC (Sun) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (2 responses)

I don't think the fact that formal and plural pronouns are identical has any bearing on whether gender neutral and plural pronouns are identical.

I also don't think people use Chaucer, Shakespeare, and Austen as their standard for modern English.

What people accept is determined mostly by what they hear in the street, which means lots of people accept singular they. But for some, it is determined more by what they were taught and read in style manuals, and for some, logic. Those things tend to make people not accept singular they.

The Ada Initiative takes a different approach

Posted Feb 20, 2011 21:49 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

The original complaint was for the want of a singular, gender-indefinite pronoun. The logic of the response is that such things *do* exist in english, & have both long history of *and* continuing modern use.

The Ada Initiative takes a different approach

Posted Feb 20, 2011 22:25 UTC (Sun) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

I don't know about the logic of the response, but the response literally said "are they a boy or a girl" is "perfectly acceptable." On the contrary, it is imperfectly acceptable, as a significant number of people do not accept it. Anyone considering using that sentence should bear that in mind.