|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

ITWire has posted a lengthy interview with Linus Torvalds. "On the other hand, one of the things I've always enjoyed in Linux development has been how it's stayed interesting by evolving. So maybe it's less 'fun' in the crazy-go-lucky sense, but on the other hand the much bigger development team and the support brought in by all the companies around Linux has also added its own very real fun. It's a lot more social, for example. So the project may have lost something, but it gained something else to compensate."

to post comments

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 9, 2011 16:16 UTC (Wed) by lispler (guest, #72611) [Link]

grey hair?

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 9, 2011 17:15 UTC (Wed) by jmm82 (guest, #59425) [Link] (27 responses)

"I simply wasn't interested in cell-phones, and that's a _big_ deal in Finland. I really do believe that most of the people I went to university with ended up working for Nokia or some related company. A _lot_ of technology in Finland is about mobile phones. Maybe you've played the "Angry Birds" game? That's a Finnish company."

I love the irony now that Android/Linux is destroying Nokia's business.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 9, 2011 17:34 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (25 responses)

The leaked message from their CEO says they are being killed from three sides: the iPhone at the high end, Android at the high end and in the middle, and cheap Chinese phones at the low end. If I were in their shoes I'd just order the engineers to start cranking out some high-quality Android phones in a hurry so they have something to sell that people might buy.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 9, 2011 17:53 UTC (Wed) by dmaxwell (guest, #14010) [Link] (9 responses)

That would be a smart thing to do but the prevalent speculation is they're going to flog Windows phones. Two great tastes that taste great together........

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 9, 2011 18:15 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (8 responses)

They have invested a lot of time in QT, so it might be smarter to finish its development.

Though it seems that Android is quickly gobbling up the mobile world. It's almost like 80-s when Microsoft+Intel quickly killed off everything else except the high-end niche Apple.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 9, 2011 22:39 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (7 responses)

> They have invested a lot of time in QT, so it might be smarter to finish its development.

Ever heard of a sunk cost? This is no way to make a business decision.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 9, 2011 23:30 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (4 responses)

There are some customers, particularly in EDA, who pay for licenses to use QT in proprietary code as a cross-platform solution. They could spin off the QT group (re-creating Trolltech in effect) or sell it.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 4:02 UTC (Thu) by jmm82 (guest, #59425) [Link] (3 responses)

When ever I hear the name Trolltech I think that must be one of the most condescending nicknames for a company ever. Then I remember it is a legit company. I hope they didn't have focus groups to come up with that name.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 7:32 UTC (Thu) by leifbk (guest, #35665) [Link]

Here in Norway, the troll is regarded as a folkloristic national symbol. It's big, ugly, and stupid, but nevertheless mostly harmless.

That said, even as a Norwegian, I don't think I would go for a company name with troll in it.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 8:42 UTC (Thu) by oblio (guest, #33465) [Link] (1 responses)

"Focus group"? I think the company was a startup with 2 people when they chose the name.
Sheesh, these Americans and their corporations :p

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 16:11 UTC (Thu) by jmm82 (guest, #59425) [Link]

I am American but I have been working at a startup with three programers for the last four years. I know they are a good company, but it throws me off guard. The comment above about the heritage of the troll helps a little.

First I think they are patent trolls. Then mailing list trolls. Next, I think they make those plastic lucky charms with the neon hair which people put on their keychain. Finally, I remember they do stuff with qt.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 13:53 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes. But they do produce quite a nice system for tablets (MeeGO). It's not like their product is a failure, it's just not yet completely ready.

Well, there are a difference?

Posted Feb 11, 2011 1:07 UTC (Fri) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

It's not like their product is a failure, it's just not yet completely ready.

Actually it's the definition of failure. Never forget RFC1925. What you said is just truth number 3: given enough time you may make any product usable (think Windows 7), but it'll be big, unwieldy and slow (again: think Windows 7). If the product is not ready when market demands it and concurrents offer their own version then it is a failure - end of story.

There are some window of opportunity, but it's limited - about a year, not much more. The case of Dreamcast and PlayStation2 is great example: Dreamcast was released in Japan two years before PlayStation2 - and did very well there (till SEGA pulled the plug), but in other regions it only had a year - and so quickly lost. Android tablets are just now starting to appear so MeeGo has about one year to catch up. And it does not look like it'll do that.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 9, 2011 18:02 UTC (Wed) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link] (13 responses)

From this I conclude that there will be no Nokia Android phones: http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/09/googles-vic-gundotra-o...

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 14:06 UTC (Thu) by yaap (subscriber, #71398) [Link] (12 responses)

It seems the only thing you can conclude is that this guys opinion is that Nokia + WP7 would be a loosing association (which I tend to agree with).

Then it could either mean:
1) the deal is done, and I think it sucks;
2) the deal would be stupid as it obviously sucks, so now way.

Curiously most people only see 1. It doesn't seem logical at this stage.

Particularly because Android doesn't look so dangerous in the long run. When you're late, the proper action is not to chase, but to leap-frog. Meego can be such a leapfrog:
- the future is smartphone as computer. Also Android is excellent for phones, it falls short for a full computer (same for ChromeOs). The Moto Atrix in netbook mode just provide a web browser, that's too little. Meego can provide a full computer experience;
- Meego can run Android apps at some point. So it can be from a user point of view a superset of Android --- do everything Android can do, and more. It would be a nice way for Nokia to push Android to low end in a short time.

Similarly, people interpret Elop comment on Meego as "Meego will be killed". This seems very weird to me. Elop already said previously that Meego was the future. He got Palm UI guy to join. The QT guys went dark on their UI in advance of an announcement soon. The only thing Elop really said was that Meego was too late (just after saying Symbian was dead, and there was a lot of smart guys at Nokia, just talking Meego). So I would rather interpret this as Elop being (justifiably) pissed about Meego delay, and wanting to push more Meego devices more quickly. While at the same time getting a short term fix. How people jumped to "Elop said Meego is canned" seems a wild interpretation to me, not in line with recent events.

Anyway, just idle speculation. Let's see tomorrow. But dumping Meego at this stage seems really, really brain damaged. We need the power of computers on phones, it's coming and will be baseline within 4 to 5 years. Apple with iOS son of OS-X has all they need. Android and WP7 can be seen as nice for phones, but still way too short.

And by the way, don't get me started on security. Yes, the principles of Android are sound. But there are bugs, and then the only way to deal is quick updates.
Because of customization from handset vendors, it's very late on Android, if it ever happens. And when it happens, it's a full image (> 150 MB) for the next version. And as it relies on handset vendors who don't seem to care it won't change quickly.
Now with Meego and a true linux distro, Nokia has in hands all the tools to push incrementals changes, as in Debian of Fedora. And it wouldn't cost much to them to do it propely. It can be a "black swan" event: just wait for a ig security issue and show you're ready. In the current situation, security in smartphone is just begging for problems.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 11, 2011 8:35 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (9 responses)

Aaaaaand it has happened: http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressreleas...

>London, Feb. 11, 2011 - Nokia and Microsoft today announced plans to form a broad strategic partnership that would use their complementary strengths and expertise to create a new global mobile ecosystem.
....
>- Nokia would adopt Windows Phone as its principal smartphone strategy, innovating on top of the platform in areas such as imaging, where Nokia is a market leader.

No way ex-MS exec can do anything good. Bye-bye, Nokia! Hope you ditch MS fast enough.

Nokia + Microsoft = noGO

Posted Feb 11, 2011 8:52 UTC (Fri) by jjs (guest, #10315) [Link]

So much for my buying my next phone from Nokia. I was looking forward to the N9, but not if it comes out with MS WP7. Even if it comes out with Meego, I expect it dead given they claim they will adopt MS software for their smartphones.

Sigh, another good company killed by MS.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 11, 2011 9:50 UTC (Fri) by forlwn (guest, #63934) [Link] (5 responses)

For me it's a Bye Bye Nokia.
They both think that Microsoft still has the same marketing potential they once had.
The world changed, and today any of them are anymore synonym of granted quality.
I just hope any of them will embrace any kind of patent wars against Android.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 11, 2011 10:07 UTC (Fri) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link] (4 responses)

I don't know about marking potential, but I very honestly believe Microsoft has demonstrated better capacity to execute than Nokia w.r.t. delivering an innovating mobile platform.

Apple and Google truly changed this market. In the years that followed, MS wasn't fast but it delivered Win7 for phones, which is IMO a modern platform.

What has Nokia accomplished in all these years? They kept retrying the same Symbian formula, and never delivering on Meego.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 11, 2011 12:24 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (3 responses)

Nope. WP7 right now is crap, it's definitely on the level of Android 1.5 or first versions of iOS. Nokia can probably release something like this in a few months based on MeeGO.

MeeGO needs just one more year to mature. Which they are going to need to adapt Nokia for WP7 anyway.

If you look at timing, it took Google 3 years to produce a good phone OS, ditto for Apple. So MeeGO is actually quite on par with its competitors.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 11, 2011 13:14 UTC (Fri) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link] (2 responses)

Seriously, for how many years has Maemo/Meego been in the works? How much have they actually delivered so far? For how many years have there been talks about Maemo/Meego being just about there? Does only counts from the moment they renamed it to Meego?

IMHO it wasn't only Symbian opposition that kept Maemo/Meego from flying. Apple and Google were dashing ahead, and Maemo/Meego engineering kept doing one idiosyncratic change after the other. How has any of that rewriting done them any good?

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 12, 2011 22:41 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (1 responses)

Maemo _was_ production-quality several _years_ ago, on Nokia N900.

The decision to rewrite it in QT was a bold move, which would have paid (IMO) if they allowed it work.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 13, 2011 7:34 UTC (Sun) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

I've played with the N900. It might meet your definition of production quality but certainly not the general industry's. All the reviews at the time called it "a good start" and "half-baked". Nobody liked it much.

Rewriting in Qt cost them two years and most of their developers (all four of them) when they were already a year behind the curve. It was a clumsy and foolish decision.

"Allow" it to work?? You make it sound so effortless. Nokia needed to expend MASSIVE effort to catch up.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 11, 2011 10:23 UTC (Fri) by yaap (subscriber, #71398) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes, so sad...

From another Nokia PR [1], Meego is presented as for computers not handsets: "MeeGo Computers". It's out of the Mobile division and in the "Smart Devices" division. And just a future looking "project", not a platform. Well, my wish to get an interesting super phone this year seems to have gone down the drain.

Hopefully Meego will still advance and can be resurrected for phones later on. And I agree this could just be wishful thinking from me just as in the post above ;)

You can check the reactions on Nokia own website/blog [2]. Doesn't look too good. Maybe this will make sure Meego forges on, just so Nokia can have some other option open for later.

[1] http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressreleas...
[2] http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/02/11/open-letter-fro...

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 11, 2011 14:06 UTC (Fri) by yaap (subscriber, #71398) [Link]

Correcting myself: "Smart Devices" includes all smartphones too. I read to quickly and first saw it as an extended Nokia Gear. While Mobile seems to be for low cost phones.
Anyway, it still says "Meego computers". Let's see what they announce at MWC.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 12, 2011 15:34 UTC (Sat) by sorpigal (guest, #36106) [Link] (1 responses)

>Meego can run Android apps at some point. So it can be from a user point of view a superset of Android --- do everything Android can do, and more.

Hey, that's a great point. If you build a system that is compatible with its competitor but also offers a superset of features and a superior environment, you can't help but win. I have a problem with the name "Meego" though; is there some way we could call it "OS/2" instead?

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 12, 2011 18:05 UTC (Sat) by yaap (subscriber, #71398) [Link]

Well, your example shows that being a superset is not enough. I never said otherwise, and I actually agree.

Marketing your product aggressively is critical, and you can't afford to be too proud about your product and naturally expecting people will flock to you because of course it's so technically good. That was IBM attitude, and there's too much of that in Nokia too --- even with Symbian.
If anything, the current events may have deflated some egos at Nokia though.

And besides marketing, you need to stand on your own strengths too. But there a real linux distro on a phone had a lot of potential.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 0:28 UTC (Thu) by AndreE (guest, #60148) [Link]

Assuming the "leaked email" is not a hoax

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 13:41 UTC (Thu) by hitmark (guest, #34609) [Link]

Well they did try to roll their own linux phone. Tho i fear old school executive meddling killed that one.

Linus Torvalds: looking back, looking forward (ITWire)

Posted Feb 9, 2011 22:52 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Linus, from the article:

> I really do enjoy plodding around in the details. Not because I'm humble, but simply because it's what I'm interested in. Maybe that accounts for you thinking I have my feet on the ground.

Great answer.

I love how he bashes creationism :)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 0:27 UTC (Thu) by HelloWorld (guest, #56129) [Link] (1 responses)

iTWire: So there is no pressure at school for the kids to learn intelligent design and the like?
LT: Creationism/intelligent design? Hell, no. We made sure that our kids go to good schools.
Nice one :o)

I love how he bashes creationism :)

Posted Feb 10, 2011 2:11 UTC (Thu) by jhardin (guest, #3297) [Link]

{guffaw} Indeed.


Copyright © 2011, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds