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MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

By Jake Edge
November 17, 2010

We are just at the beginning of a massive change in the way we use computers, and traditional desktops and laptops will be giving way to more and more internet-connected devices—that's the vision presented in two keynotes at the first ever MeeGo conference. But in order for that vision to come about, there needs to be an open environment, where both [Aviva Stadium] hardware and software developers can create new devices and applications, without the innovation being controlled—often stifled—by a single vendor's wishes. Doug Fisher, Intel's VP of the Software and Services Group, and Nokia's Alberto Torres, Executive VP for MeeGo Computers, took different approaches to delivering that message, but their talks were promoting the same theme.

The conference was held November 15-17 at Aviva Stadium in Dublin, Ireland and hosted many more developers than conference organizers originally expected. It was very well put on, and at an eye-opening venue, which bodes well for future conferences. One that is more industry-focused is currently planned for May in San Francisco, while another developer-focused event is tentatively scheduled for November 2011 for somewhere other than the US.

"Strategic Freedom with MeeGo"

After an introduction by conference program committee chair Dirk Hohndel, Fisher kicked off his talk with a rueful reminiscence of his talk at the 2005 Ottawa Linux Symposium, where the person running the slide deck exited his presentation at the end, which put up a Windows desktop on the screen. That wasn't particularly popular with the assembled Linux crowd, so he was careful to show that he was presenting his slides using OpenOffice.org Impress on MeeGo this time. [Doug Fisher]

Over the next few years, there will be one billion new internet-connected users and 15 billion connected devices, Fisher said. Intel and MeeGo want to ensure that they meet the needs of that growing market. It is these new devices that will be the main mechanism for connecting with the internet. They will "surpass the traditional way you interact with the internet". And we are "just at the beginning of where this device environment is going to go".

There are two models that are being proposed for this new environment, one that is controlled versus one that is open. The controlled environment is one where a "single vendor provides the whole solution". But lots of people that want to innovate are outside of the box that the vendor has set up. In these closed environments, business models and the implementation of business models are controlled.

But, "the only way you can scale to all of those devices is to have an open environment", Fisher said. In the book Where Good Ideas Come From, author Steven Johnson "debunks the myth that great ideas come from a single person". Instead, it is a "social process as much as a technology process" to come up with these great ideas. Because we don't have any time to waste to build this new device environment, "we have to be able to work together".

"A controlled environment with a box around it will not be able to scale", to the vast array of devices and device types that are coming. But, Fisher cautioned, an open environment should not lead to fragmentation. There is a responsibility to make the platform consistent, so that companies can depend on it and make investments in it.

That is why MeeGo was moved under the Linux Foundation (LF), so that the LF can be "the steward of MeeGo". The governance of MeeGo is modeled after how Linux is governed; there is no membership required and it is architected in an open way. Both Intel and ARM chips are supported, and MeeGo is constructed to "ensure we meet the needs of a broad type of platforms".

Inclusion, meritocracy, transparency, and upstream first

[Aviva pitch]

Fisher then turned the stage over to Carsten Munk, who is known for his work on Nokia's Maemo and on the MeeGo N900 port. MeeGo "is trying to do something that has never been done before", Munk said, and there are four key elements to making it work: inclusion, meritocracy, transparency, and upstream first. The inclusive nature of MeeGo was embodied in the fact that he was on-stage with an Intel executive, as an independent developer who works on MeeGo ARM. "The MeeGo way is to include people", he said.

When asked by Fisher if the project had been living up to the four ideals, Munk said that it was "getting better over the last 8-9 months", but that "not everything is perfect". There have been arguments over governance and the like over that time, but the community is still figuring things out. In addition to developing MeeGo as an OS and MeeGo applications, the project is developing "the MeeGo way of working".

The upstream-first policy is "really important to avoid fragmentation", Fisher said after Munk left the stage. Avoiding fragmentation is critical for users and developers. Users want to be able to run their applications consistently on multiple devices, while developers want to be sure they can move to different vendors without rewriting their applications.

MeeGo is an OS that vendors can take and do what they want with it, but in order to call it MeeGo, it must be compliant with the MeeGo requirements. That ensures there is a single environment for developers. They can move their code from vendor to vendor, while avoiding the rework and revalidation that currently is required for embedded and other applications.

Intel wants to deliver the best operating environment for MeeGo, and power the best devices, which is why it has invested in the low-power Atom chip. As an example, he pointed to netbooks that are just getting better, some of which have MeeGo on them. There will be more and more of those in 2011 and 2012, Fisher said. In addition, Intel worked closely with Amino Communications on a MeeGo-based television set top box. What would normally take Amino 18 months to deliver was done in six using MeeGo.

One of the strengths of MeeGo is that in addition to allowing multiple vendors to use it, it also enables multiple device types. Intel was involved in helping with the MeeGo netbooks and set-top box that he mentioned, but he also listed two other vendors using MeeGo, where Intel wasn't involved at all. A German company that made a MeeGo-based tablet as well as a company in China doing in-vehicle-infotainment (IVI) systems in cars that are shipping now are examples of the "power of open source", he said. They took the code and made it work for their devices and customers without having to ask for permission. The MeeGo community is going to be responsible for keeping that kind of innovation happening, he said.

One of the visions for MeeGo devices that was presented in a video at the beginning of the talk was the ability to move audio and video content between these devices. The idea is that someone can be watching a movie or listening to some music and move it to other devices, share it with their friends, and so on. Fisher had someone from Intel demonstrate a prototype of that functionality, where a video was paused on a netbook, restarted on a TV, then moved from there to a tablet.

That is an example of "the kind of innovation we need to drive into MeeGo", Fisher said. It's not just something that is unique and innovative on a single device but, because it is MeeGo, it can move between various devices from multiple vendors. It is a "compelling and challenging opportunity". Though it is an exciting vision for the future, there is still a potentially insurmountable challenge which Fisher left unsaid: finding a way to get the content industries on board with that kind of ubiquitous playback and sharing.

It turned out that the MeeGo tablet used in the demo was a Lenovo IdeaPad—an Atom-powered tablet/netbook. Fisher said that one lucky developer in attendance would be receiving one. When the envelope was opened, though, the name on the inside was "Everyone", so Intel would be giving each conference attendee an IdeaPad. He left it to Hohndel to later deliver the bad news to the roughly 200 Intel and Nokia employees in attendance; there would be no tablets for those folks.

"MeeGo Momentum and the Qt App Advantage"

[Alberto Torres]

Torres started his talk by "dispelling rumors" that Nokia might not be committed to MeeGo. He pointed to comments made by new CEO Stephen Elop that reiterated Nokia's commitment. Nokia plans to deliver a "new user experience" using MeeGo, Torres said. Furthermore, he believes that we are "redefining the future of computing" with the advent of widespread internet-connected mobile devices, and MeeGo has all the elements to foster that redefinition.

He looked back at some of the history of computers, noting that in the 1940s IBM's Thomas Watson suggested there was a total worldwide market for five computers. Since that time, the market has grown a bit, but that the command line limited the use of computers to fairly technical users. In the 1970s, when Xerox PARC adopted the mouse and an interface with windows and icons, that really changed things. That interface is a far more human way to interact with a computer, and it is largely the same interface that we have today.

Moving away from the command line meant that you didn't have to be an expert to use a computer and got people "starting to think about every home having a computer". Today, almost every home in the developed world does have a computer. Beyond that, smartphones are computers in our pockets, which allows computers to go places they never went before. But we haven't figured out major new ways to interact with those devices. That is good, because it allows us to define it, he said.

There are advances being made in touch devices using gestures and in motion-sensing gaming interfaces, both of which are more natural to use. He said that his daughter, who is not yet 2 years old, can do things with his smartphone, like use the photo gallery application. Gestures are "bringing computing to a level that is far more intuitive", which is leading to the idea of even more computers in the home. We may not call them computers, he said, but instead they will be called cars or TVs.

All of these different devices need to work together in an integrated way, with interfaces that work in a "human way". One of the strengths of MeeGo is that it was created from the start to go on all of these different kinds of devices. He believes we are going to see a proliferation of devices with MeeGo, and with many different interaction models: driving a car, playing a game or video in the back of the car, at home watching TV, and so on.

Qt for application development

Torres then shifted gears a bit to talk about Qt. It is much more than just a library, he said, it is a development platform incorporating things like database access, network connectivity, inter-object communication, WebKit integration, and more. He said that Qt enables C++ programmers to be four times more productive in developing code, and he expects the addition of Qt Declarative UI to increase that, perhaps as far as a 10x productivity increase.

Qt is also multi-platform and is used "everywhere". It started out as a desktop platform, but is on "all kinds of devices today". As an example of that, he had another Nokia employee demonstrate the same application running on MeeGo, Windows, Symbian, and embedded Linux. The animated photo browsing application was developed using Qt Quick, and could be run, unmodified, on each of the platforms. A Qt Quick application can be placed on a USB stick and moved between the various devices.

Nokia is a company that makes devices, and it "wants to put devices into people's hands that they fall in love with". MeeGo offers them a great opportunity to do that because of its "unique innovation model", which includes both openness and differentiation. Companies like Nokia, mobile phone carriers, TV makers, and so on can add things on top of the MeeGo platform to make themselves stand out. It might be a different user experience or add-on services that are added to differentiate the device, but that can be done on top of a non-fragmented platform with stable APIs. This allows those companies to express their creativity and brand without fragmentation.

The plan for Nokia is to provide "delicious hardware", with great connectivity, and a "fantastic user experience" on top. He again noted Nokia CEO Elop's statement that Nokia would be delivering a new standard for user experience on mobile devices. There are those who think that the user experience for devices has already been decided, but he pointed out that it took decades to decide on the standard interface for driving a car—"and we may not be done", noting that alternatives for car interfaces may be on the horizon.

"Creating a set of devices that are so cool that developers want to develop for them" is the approach Nokia and others are taking with MeeGo, Torres said. Some of those devices will be announced by Nokia in 2011. Given the growth in the MeeGo community, Torres joked that next year's MeeGo developer conference might need to use the outdoor part of the stadium to hold all of the attendees.

While there was much of interest in the visions presented, it is still an open question how many hackable MeeGo devices will become available. There wasn't anything said in the keynotes about devices that can be altered by users with their own ideas of how their MeeGo device should work. Instead, the focus was clearly on the kinds of things that MeeGo enables device manufacturers to do, without any real nod toward user freedoms. With luck, there will be some device makers who recognize the importance of free devices and will deliver some with MeeGo.

Index entries for this article
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to post comments

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 17, 2010 20:50 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (11 responses)

Over the next few years, there will be one billion new internet-connected users and 15 billion connected devices
This number is just comical. That's well over two devices for every living human, or, given his own figures, ten to fifteen devices per each one of those new users. I can just see it in the Western world (laptop and phone-that-does-everything, plus a few hundred million at most for infrastructure, servers and the like), but outside the western world... well, mobiles are ubiquitous, but it's not one per person, not at all, and that seems fairly unlikely to change in such a short timespan (if a village has one or two phones, they get enormously more benefit than if they have none: if they have ten times as many they don't get much extra benefit but it costs a lot).

Furthermore, where is the bandwidth for all these mobile devices going to come from? The airwaves are already clogged, and are projected to be clogged in no time flat even if the spectrum from the TV switchoff were entirely to be given to mobile-device dataflow, which is not happening.

Ah well. We're in the new world, in which developer conferences are given by executive VPs. Expecting logic rather than marketing from people like that is surely unrealistic, but they could have tried to make the marketing figures not obviously ridiculous.

15 billion?

Posted Nov 17, 2010 22:03 UTC (Wed) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

There's going to be a lot of "connected" machinery that's not the personal property of a user and that won't hog as much bandwidth as a user uploading videos or playing ARFPS games. Surveillance cameras in every public space, an RFID scanner in every shopping cart and every manufacturing station, "smart meters" for electricity, water, and gas, every nuclear power is going to need new SELinux uranium centrifuges of course, and probably towns on tight budgets are going to use a Tire Pressure Monitoring System-based scanner on every block and every parking space to catch any fineable traffic or parking infraction. 15 billion is on the low side, I tell you.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 17, 2010 23:08 UTC (Wed) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (6 responses)

Do you really think that only the western world lives in cities, that 2 billion people in China and India live in villages, and they can't afford more than one cell phone a piece? Is our anti China/India propaganda machine that strong?

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 16:27 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (5 responses)

No: of course there are a billion or so right there. But fifteen billion as a total figure given only a billion new users is a ludicrous combination, no matter how you slice it.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 17:41 UTC (Thu) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (4 responses)

6 billion people, leave 1 billion unconnected, so suppose 5 billion have 3 connected devices each -> 15 billion. Doesn't seem so ludicrous to me.

Possible sources of an average 3 devices a person (note that he did not say wireless): 1 home PC, 1 work PC, 1 laptop (work or home), 1 smartphone, 1-2 tablets, 1 set top box, 1 home automation device (sprinklers, thermostat...), 1 in car device...

You don't have to agree to this vision, but I would hardly say that it is a ludicrous claim. Someone in his position has to make an estimate, what's yours?

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 20:44 UTC (Thu) by jzbiciak (guest, #5246) [Link] (3 responses)

Right, but the original statement said 1 billion new users to go with those 15 billion connected devices, not 5 billion total users:

Over the next few years, there will be one billion new internet-connected users and 15 billion connected devices, Fisher said.

The assertion was that 15 billion total devices is comical even if you add 1 billion new users. To get to 5 billion total users adding only 1 billion new users, that means you need 4 billion users today, which sounds a bit high. Even if you assume there are 1 billion users today (which I don't think there are), that only gets you to 2 billion.

Suppose we round it to around 10 connected devices per person. (This assumes 1.5 billion people connected, new and existing. It's also a nice, round number.) That's a lot of devices. Per person, you'd need something like this to get to 10 devices: a cell phone, laptop, office phone, TV, automobile, dishwasher, refrigerator, game system, home management system (ie. lights/security/temperature) and utility monitoring system (ie. smart meter). Per person. That seems a bit much.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 19, 2010 1:17 UTC (Fri) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (2 responses)

Maybe you should lookup some facts before your ridicule his prediction (and be certain that you understand his statement):

> Even if you assume there are 1 billion users today (which I don't think there are), that only gets you to 2 billion.

This article claims ~2 billion users connected today:

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm

Interestingly enough, Asia has more connected users than the western world ~825M, but there penetration is only 21%, and in North America it is 77%. So, if you simply bring Asia up to %50 penetration, you would have already added close to 1 billion users (50% of today). That would be 3 billion, since 6b - 3b = 3 billion left to grow, 1 billion growth may in fact be low, conservative, actually.

Now, lets look at devices, this article claims 5 billion devices already:

http://www.circleid.com/posts/internet_connected_devices_...

5b devices with 2b users, an average of 2.5 devices per user.

Now, let's assume that all the current users only double their device usage (I would expect more). That would make 5b x 2 = 10b devices, close enough certainly to not make his claim ludicrous. Add 50% more Asian users to the equation at the same device rate, and boom 15b devices! Not far fetched at all. Again, this seems conservative to me, and it arrives at his estimate.

I have a feeling that users will actually do more than doubling their devices. Internet devices have typically been in the $500-$1000+ range. They are approaching the $100 on the low end now, this is a massive difference and will likely easily more than double the current # of devices per user and could greatly impact penetration also.

Given some facts, show me logic that would make his prediction seem ludicrous.

> Right, but the original statement said 1 billion new users to go with those 15 billion connected devices, not 5 billion total users:
>> Over the next few years, there will be one billion new internet-connected users and 15 billion connected devices, Fisher said.

No, while he could mean what you think he means, it would be a small leap to assume that. I don't read it that way. I do not think that he associated the 1 billion new users with those 15 billion connected devices. I believe those were two independent predictions, related only in context, not a strict causation. I could be wrong about my interpretation, but clearly it is a valid one given that sentence, and (as you would likely agree) it certainly makes more sense given the numbers.

After reading this article, I suspect that his prediction was by 2015. Note, that the Ericsson CEO thinks that there will be 50b connected devices by 2020:

http://gigaom.com/2010/04/14/ericsson-sees-the-internet-o...

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 19, 2010 4:27 UTC (Fri) by jzbiciak (guest, #5246) [Link]

Well, it certainly makes more sense when you actually show your work. :-)

As Carl Sagan once said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. While this was more simply counterintuitive than extraordinary, it's still much easier to accept and understand now with references.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 19, 2010 4:31 UTC (Fri) by jzbiciak (guest, #5246) [Link]

And to be clear, I wasn't the one ridiculing the prediction. I merely said that "yeah, it seems like a bit much." I'm just saying a claim like that earned a [citation needed] tag.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 4:36 UTC (Thu) by ccurtis (guest, #49713) [Link] (1 responses)

15 "connected devices" per person doesn't seem completely unreasonable to me. Off the top of my head, I can count that I have:

1) Desktop computer
2) Wireless Router
3) Cable Modem
4) Wireless Printer
5) Android Cell Phone
6) Nintendo Wii

In actuality I also have 2 laptops and 2-3 desktops that I don't use and am not counting. Modern TVs are internet connected, as are modern stereos. I expect modern MP3 or portable video players are as well.

In a very short time I expect cars will be connecting to Hot Spots to get traffic information, so I also expect some GPS devices to be internet connected as well. E-Book readers fall into this category as well, and as the electrical infrastructure gets smarter, virtually _every_ device using electricity will also become a "connected device".

I'm not really a 'gadget guy' so I expect that many people here have more items than the mere 6 that I listed and counted. Although I expect there will be some 'device consolidation' with time, it won't match the number of devices that gain connectivity.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 19, 2010 4:36 UTC (Fri) by thoffman (guest, #3063) [Link]

Two people, small apartment, 10 network connected devices, mostly Linux:

1) Homebuilt file server/home entertainment PC.
2) Samsung 750-series TV
3) Blu-Ray player (not sure of OS)
4,5) 2 Android phones
6,7) 2 Linux laptops,
8) Linksys WiFi router
9) Vonage VoIP router
10) Cable modem

Within a year I guess we'll have a tablet or two, and 12 ip addresses.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 6:59 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

It's not that one billion new users will bring 15 billion new devices.

It's that a) there will be one billion new users. And b) these users, plus the existing users, will increase the device-count by 15 billion.

Thus, if there's a total of 3 billion users (including the new billion), then each user needs on the average 5 devices more that are online-capable than they have today.

This seems not at all unreasonable, but depends a bit on the interpretation of "next few years" offcourse.

At the moment, we're mostly talking computers and infrastructure. (servers, laptops, routers, desktops) but in the western world, other devices are coming online now.

TVs come with internet-access built in. (atleast DLNA, sometimes more) Mobile phones come with internet as a core function. Cars hook up trough the mobile-phone. Radios become internet-radio-capable. Printers get their own ip-address and hook up to the wlan at home. home-security-systems become accessible over tcp/ip. Automation means tcp/ip may become involved when you press a *lightswitch* in your home. Digital cameras get wlan-access, in order to make the pics downloadable without needing a cable.

None of this is the future. This is tech that's at the early-adopter stage in the rich parts of the world NOW. I ain't counted, but I'm positive there's in excess of 25 devices in my home that speak tcp/ip, and if we include the devices I and my wife use exclusively at work, you can add another handful.

We're not typical - but I find it entirely plausible that when we've got probably 30 devices TODAY, that the average western rich-person will have 10 of them inside of the decade.

Now, not all of these devices are nessecarily globally reachable, some of them live on their own internal network that may or may not be connected to the global internet, but even when it is, there's typically NAT between, so they all appear as a single ip on the net. Nevertheless, if a device is capable of pinging lwn.net, I think it's reasonable to say the device is online.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 17, 2010 20:50 UTC (Wed) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (15 responses)

Call me a Luddite, but I'd rather that more intuitive user interfaces didn't lead to computers called cars in the home. I think a lot of the changes that need to be made relative to the desktop computer interface are about keeping these computers where they're supposed to be.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 17, 2010 21:43 UTC (Wed) by modernjazz (guest, #4185) [Link]

Some people would say that your garage is part of your home. So you wouldn't need to have the car-computer parked in your bedroom. My, that would be a usability problem!

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 17, 2010 23:26 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (13 responses)

> I think a lot of the changes that need to be made relative to the desktop computer interface are about keeping these computers where they're supposed to be.

Pray tell; were should computers be?

Also improving the desktop and improving other types of computers are not mutually exclusive.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 17, 2010 23:50 UTC (Wed) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (12 responses)

Computers that are called cars should be on roads, in general. Sometimes they should be in driveways or in garages, but the issue is mostly keeping them on roads while they're in use. The challenge in user interface design that I see is that users of desktops are generally in safe situations where they can pay attention to the computer and ignore their surroundings most of the time, while users of computers in many of these new situations have to pay attention to something outside of the computer's interface (e.g., the road), and can only spare any attention for the computer for moments and only when they can tell that it is safe (clear view of the area and the driver has just looked around). When the first Priuses came out, everybody who tried driving them was driving relatively unsafely simply because they were looking at all of the fascinating information the car provided on the dashboard about its efficiency, and not paying attention to driving. And there are all of the attention problems associated with smart phone use in cars; these can't be ignored in the case where the computer is the car and you're using it any time you drive.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 19, 2010 12:14 UTC (Fri) by wookey (guest, #5501) [Link] (11 responses)

I think you are conflating 'computer' and 'display screen'.
Nearly everyone's car that is less than 10 years old (in the western world) has a computer in. Only a few of those have a prius-style display screen full if interesting stuff. Most have a pretty conventional dashboard. I assume you would agree that traditional dashboard info (including a fuel-consumption-meter) is acceptably distracting?

Those car computers are increasingly getting wireless interfaces (not entirely a good thing) and will no doubt be online too soon.

As to the 15 billion - as several people have pointed out this is no exaggeration. Once you include every car-charging point, smart meter, smart device (in white goods and heating), every wind turbine, security camera, utility monitoring point (power, gas, water) as well as everyone's personal and work gagetry, and all the vehicles, there are going to be a _lot_ of devices on the net. (and enormous opportunities for hacking and cracking).

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 19, 2010 16:39 UTC (Fri) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (10 responses)

I believe the car computers are a separate system from the computers under discussion; they're not planning to run MeeGo on the car computers. All sorts of devices actually contain computers (I've heard of compact fluorescent light bulbs having computers to manage the process of turning on the light, because it's a bit complicated and a microcontroller is cheaper than the high-precision passive components you'd otherwise need). The expansion of network-connected devices is an interesting topic, but really one for a different article; I suspect that the vast majority of these devices will be in the class that uses FreeRTOS and not Linux and certainly not something like Meego's userspace.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 24, 2010 16:12 UTC (Wed) by n8willis (subscriber, #43041) [Link] (9 responses)

They absolutely _are_ talking about running MeeGo on the car computers. That's what the IVI UX is.

Nate

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 24, 2010 16:25 UTC (Wed) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link] (8 responses)

>They absolutely _are_ talking about running MeeGo on the car computers. That's what the IVI UX is.

So the fuel injection system gets to watch The Simpsons? :P

As someone else said upthread, "I think you are conflating 'computer' and 'display screen'".

GP was talking about the computers that actually *control* the car, not extra devices that you can add in for entertainment but aren't intrinsically *car* computers.

I think he was intending simply to point out that nobody is proposing running an entertainment system on the computers that control critical operations, so including them in the count is arguably unfair.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 24, 2010 19:15 UTC (Wed) by n8willis (subscriber, #43041) [Link] (7 responses)

I went to the IVI talk; they're talking about distributed systems with multiple heads, some for rear-seat-entertainment, some for driver-facing applications, some for telematics, some for vehicle data, some for safety equipment.

And there's not a bright line separating the "entertainment" front-end from the the location/safety/other systems -- they are all interconnected. Your audio player must be able to override a music stream to play an alert when the proximity sensor detects that you're backing up into another car. Your hands-free phone support allows you to keep your fingers safely on the wheel, but it has to overlay video message pop-ups onto the same screen displaying your turn-by-turn navigation, which also has to overlay a message when the tire gauge detects low pressure. The same networking stack that delivers IP radio also must route sensor data to and from the roadside assistance service. You disconnect all of those systems and you don't have a working system at all.

Nate

8 years, dealer upgrades

Posted Nov 24, 2010 19:46 UTC (Wed) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link] (1 responses)

The average car in the USA is 8 years old. Who is still using the same entertainment devices for 8 years in the home? People get a new CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player, whatever. The only option for the car is aftermarket devices, which don't integrate well with on-wheel controls and which the dealer doesn't get a piece of (they way they do for high-margin options like in-car entertainment.)

What the dealers need is an in-car platform for selling upgraded entertainment devices that locks out the aftermarket. So you wire in some safety-critical systems to the same network, then you have an excuse to make it dealer-only.

8 years, dealer upgrades

Posted Nov 24, 2010 20:59 UTC (Wed) by n8willis (subscriber, #43041) [Link]

I get what you're saying, but I'm not that convinced that's how the carmakers think.

What percentage of car owners ever replace their factory head unit? Most of the people I know don't have an aftermarket audio unit; they definitely don't install RSE video units in great numbers.

There are a lot of makers that sell-up their higher-end models by advertising things like Alpine/Monsoon/Whoever speakers & head units, plus satellite radio compatibility. I suspect that they get a non-zero chunk of the satellite and navigation monthly service fee as revenue, too. Over 8 years, that ongoing revenue stream is better than whatever their margin is on a particular head unit. Plus by maintaining good working relationships with the head-unit OEMs, they get year-after-year business on the new models. Ticking them off by locking out 3rd-party upgrades can't be worth that.

Anyway it seems like car makers and head-unit OEMs *are* interested in some standards; that's what MOST is for, and XM/Sirius makes lots of add-on units to retrofit different brands.

The interesting thing to me was when Rudolf Streif said that carmakers are wanting to leverage their IVI systems as "app platforms" like the smartphone market is giddy on. There may not be a ton of possibilities for driver-facing apps (though I'm sure the 4square types are already dreaming up something useless), but rear-seat gaming is sure to garner some sales. Anyway, it almost necessitates a replaceable "IV unit" to upgrade processing power and network standards. That would be a real big change. In any case, the IVI working group already talks about separating vehicle sensors and data from the head unit, connecting them instead on existing bus standards like CAN.

We'll all see who's still impressed with the locked-in, Ford-only nav unit they can get today ... when 2017 rolls around.

Nate

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 24, 2010 19:56 UTC (Wed) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (4 responses)

Even so, I think the electronics that control engine timings and such (which is what has been called the "car computer" for a while now) will stay a separate system, which gets probed by the IVI system so that it knows to display the "check engine" alert.

For that matter, the average desktop computer probably has a dozen parts which are computers in the traditional "car computer" sense, and it would be nuts to consider running Linux on them (or having the main system take over their functions). You're not going to run MeeGo on your optical mouse, or have your optical mouse provide light-sensor data to the CPU; similarly, the IVI system is not going to handle all of the processing needs within a car.

There are two simultaneous processes going on: people are putting recognizable computers (operating system, multiple independent programs, user interaction, system image with processes and dynamic memory allocation and such) in more places; and people are replacing physical mechanisms with software implementations on special-purpose hardware (with general-purpose processor architectures). Both of these lead to there being lots more computers in the world, but it's the first and not the second that's relevant here.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 24, 2010 21:13 UTC (Wed) by n8willis (subscriber, #43041) [Link] (3 responses)

There is actually a pretty popular open source ECU called MegaSquirt, and yeah, it doesn't need a full multi-user OS. It's mostly popular with racing types. In any case, I'm not really sure I follow what you're upset about, though. You talk about "running MeeGo" on a hardware peripheral device without a processor; I don't understand who you think is saying that.

Besides, if the central IVI box that is connected by CAN bus or whatever to the ECU, the sensors, the security system, etc. *is* running MeeGo, when those other systems are essentially microcontrollers, how is "the computer" *not* "running MeeGo"? Do you say that your desktop box "isn't running Linux" because there's someone else's code running in the BIOS, the hard disk firmware, DVD drive, and Ethernet ROM?

Nate

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 24, 2010 22:01 UTC (Wed) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (1 responses)

I think the discussion has wandered away from my original point, which is that putting computers in front of people who can't spare much attention for interacting with the computer is a significant new thing. Someone responded by mentioning the ECU that's been in front of drivers for ages, and I was arguing that that's not actually relevant, since it's not that sort of computer.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 24, 2010 23:07 UTC (Wed) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

Lost drivers are more at risk of an accident, and changing CDs/cassettes/radio stations is in the top 10 for distractions. So a good car computer with nav software that gives accurate directions (with plenty of time to change lanes) and a good predictive audio system could make things safer. (Turning the dashboard into a conventional PC desktop would probably make things worse.)

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 29, 2010 15:28 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Optical mice do have processors (they work by doing motion detection on an incoming video stream), just dedicated ones.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 17, 2010 21:00 UTC (Wed) by hingo (guest, #14792) [Link] (5 responses)

While there was much of interest in the visions presented, it is still an open question how many hackable MeeGo devices will become available. There wasn't anything said in the keynotes about devices that can be altered by users with their own ideas of how their MeeGo device should work. Instead, the focus was clearly on the kinds of things that MeeGo enables device manufacturers to do, without any real nod toward user freedoms. With luck, there will be some device makers who recognize the importance of free devices and will deliver some with MeeGo.

Actually, Nokia has been very good in this area with Maemo. I remember some design spec for DRM they had, where they had put a lot of thought into how a user can turn it off.

Now: turning off DRM of course renders some protected content unavailable, and operators will do nasty things... but I fully expect Nokia to deliver hackable devices to us, yes.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 0:09 UTC (Thu) by klbrun (subscriber, #45083) [Link] (4 responses)

True for Maemo, but for Meego Nokia is now under the influence of Intel. It is telling that Nokia is not going to replace Maemo with Meego on the N900.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 11:34 UTC (Thu) by zmower (subscriber, #3005) [Link] (3 responses)

Why would Nokia upgrade consumers to meego when they want them to buy their latest device? For hackers, upgrade to meego will be trivial (one parameter different on the flash command). And completely at our own risk. ;)

As for openness, I will have only two criteria : can I still get root and is most of the source available. Given that these are both true for N900 I'm hoping that it will remain true for future meego devices from Nokia.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 12:11 UTC (Thu) by Tronic (guest, #59702) [Link] (1 responses)

Nokia already offers Meego for N900 users. You can install the other OS on on your MicroSDHC card and easily multiboot to whichever you want, or you can flash your device with it. However, what we have now is very early implementation and most of the userspace functionality (not to mention graphical gimmicks) seem to be missing. It also runs very slowly on the N900, so I suspect that new hardware will be necessary to make it run properly.

The CPU and other specs of N900 are perfectly fine but 256 MB RAM simply isn't enough for modern desktop Linux which is what Maemo and Meego are.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 24, 2010 13:24 UTC (Wed) by Tuna-Fish (guest, #61751) [Link]

Swapping to flash is relatively painless on the N900. I have never yet cursed running out of memory while using it. They mush be doing something right?

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 18:45 UTC (Thu) by BenHutchings (subscriber, #37955) [Link]

The N900 (and its Maemo-based predecessors) seem to be intended more as developer platforms than consumer products. AFAIK there is no separate developer system recommended for Maemo.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 1:54 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (2 responses)

Aside: I sort of recognised the picture, but still had to look up the name to be sure - the place is usually referred to as "Landsdowne Road".

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 4:30 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Sigh, I mean "Lansdowne Road".

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 19, 2010 15:51 UTC (Fri) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

Considering that the whole country is currently for sale, a stadium or two won't make much difference :-(

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 3:51 UTC (Thu) by mfedyk (guest, #55303) [Link] (4 responses)

> " The MeeGo way is to include people"

yes, except when you want to make a derivative like smeegol...

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 8:26 UTC (Thu) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link] (3 responses)

Why do you say so? Packaging MeeGo software to other distributions is very much encouraged. Derivatives are welcome as well, although I think Smeegol is not a derivative but indeed packaging effort.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 15:06 UTC (Thu) by ewan (guest, #5533) [Link] (2 responses)

Why do you say so?

Because of this, I imagine.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 18, 2010 15:48 UTC (Thu) by tajyrink (subscriber, #2750) [Link] (1 responses)

Well, right, trademarks are a different story, but it's not related to if it's allowed/encouraged to do derivatives or not, and like I said Smeegol is not even a derivative AFAIK but MeeGo packages on top of openSUSE.

Fedora, Ubuntu etc. are similarly restricted in trademark use, and it's generally a very good thing for users to not be able to confuse unofficial releases/software products with the official ones. That's why we have stuff like Linux Mint.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 25, 2010 21:15 UTC (Thu) by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164) [Link]

The point of the Smeegol comment was most likely how it was handled (which was quite horrible), not the principle itself (which does make sense). Note that there is now much better contact between the Smeegol dev's and MeeGo ppl so things will probably work out.

Implications of free software in embedded

Posted Nov 19, 2010 12:20 UTC (Fri) by job (guest, #670) [Link] (1 responses)

There may be a strong momentum for open source in these kinds of devices, but as long as the momentum is driven only by the short term economic balance sheet it is fragile. Intel is a large supporter now because they can compete on a level playing field with the industry leader ARM, but if Intel would find itself on top of ARM in the future that situation may not be desirable at all. This risk has to be kept in mind.

The user empowerment which is the result of open source is what we truly desire. But when its use is driven by a different agenda it is not clear that the result is desirable to us at all. This is something that really should be present in all discussions surrounding MeeGo, Android and similar.

I have an Android phone which has some misfeatures I would like to correct, but there seems to be no possible way of pushing my patches upstream. Even if there was, there is no way for me to rebuild the software since it contains proprietary parts. And if I buy an infotainment system for my car built from MeeGo and want to add some missing feature, and all these hurdles are fixed and I can rebuild the software, what good does it do if I can't reflash the device?

There is a bigger picture here that musn't be forgotten just because big companies shows up to the party with shiny new hardware.

Implications of free software in embedded

Posted Nov 25, 2010 21:17 UTC (Thu) by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164) [Link]

Yes, Tivoisation is an issue. However, while you indeed can't really get patches upstream with Android, MeeGo is surely a different story - it IS (amost completelyl) a real FOSS project, unlike Android.

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 19, 2010 12:55 UTC (Fri) by stevem (subscriber, #1512) [Link] (1 responses)

/me giggles at the Amino STB references

A disaster of a project...

MeeGo conference: Intel's and Nokia's visions of MeeGo

Posted Nov 19, 2010 21:09 UTC (Fri) by ajross (guest, #4563) [Link]

You have any dirt to share? Serious question, actually.


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