|
|
Subscribe / Log in / New account

What is Florian's strategy?

What is Florian's strategy?

Posted Oct 3, 2010 6:23 UTC (Sun) by Lefty (guest, #51528)
In reply to: What is Florian's strategy? by bawjaws
Parent article: Microsoft sues Motorola, citing Android patent infringement (ars technica)

As Florian says—and as should be pretty obvious to anyone who's actually had any involvement in this sort of work—it's going to become apparent pretty quickly that patents in general, and "software patents" in particular (and I'd note that most of the folks batting that term around are not doing so in a terrifically informed fashion) most certainty exist.

Spending your time pretending they don't, or wishing they didn't, isn't terribly constructive. No company involved in the creation of original or proprietary software can afford to unilaterally refuse to get involved in the patent landscape, I'm afraid. And they're better off doing so in a context of accurate legal understanding than one of philosophical fantasy.


to post comments

Of course patents exist - and so does plague

Posted Oct 3, 2010 11:35 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (44 responses)

Of course patents exist! Regular patent lawsuits are like plague, software patents are more like anthrax.

"Defensive patents" are kind of like vaccine (especially if they are donated to pools like OIN), but as in real life sometimes the strains used are activated and the vaccine induces disease.

Just like with real plague sometimes contact with carrier means you can not be truly healthy and should learn to live with the disease - but often it can be contained or mitigated.

Microsoft Florian says that if we can not avoid plague the first thing to do is to accept it. Sorry, but no: this is the last thing we should do.

Sometimes there are no other choice, but in case of Android there are natural layer where such attacks should rejected: at handset manufacturer level. They produce devices and so they have money to pay for patents. If they don't try to sell to US market they can just ignore them. If they don't distribute Android (and most application developers don't do that) they don't need patents and they don't need to worry about patents.

Of course patents exist - and so does plague

Posted Oct 3, 2010 14:03 UTC (Sun) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (43 responses)

Sigh. I'll be very happy when people find some other metaphor for situations they don't enjoy than deadly diseases. Microsoft does not cause cancer, patents are not the same as plague, whether they're for software or for something else. Silly analogies do not further sensible discussion.

While we're at it, name calling does not further sensible discussion. Perhaps you should return when you have something substantive and sensible to share, as opposed to just shrieking at people. If you can't treat other participants with minimal respect, however, if would be better for all if you would simply go back to 4chan.

There's nothing natural about a handset manufacturer "rejecting" a claim of patent infringement, not if they want to stay in business, as Nokia (for example) discovered, unless you think it's also "natural" that they also ignore the courts and decisions coming from those courts which negatively affect the companies prospects.

"I don't believe in patents!" does not constitute a defense against claims of patent infringement.

Of course patents exist - and so does plague

Posted Oct 3, 2010 15:05 UTC (Sun) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (33 responses)

Yep.

Don't hate the players, hate the game. :)

If you want to be able to make a living you have to deal with patents as they are part of the reality forced on all of us by the weight of government.

This is inhuman excuse...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 0:01 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (32 responses)

Don't hate the players, hate the game. :)

Sorry, but no. If the game is deadly and unjust (like software patents game is) you must play it as little as possible and trying to be as human as possible. Think 1938 in Germany: if you see Jews in hospital (in volation of law!) you can be "a good citizen" and deliver this information to someone who can eject them. Or you can close the eyes are do nothing (in this case you don't even violate any law). Do you believe "don't hate the players, hate the game" is valid approach in this situation too?

If you want to be able to make a living you have to deal with patents as they are part of the reality forced on all of us by the weight of government.

Sure. But there are ways to play this game without admitting that software without any attached hardware can violate patents. This is especially easy to do for handset manufacturers - and this is exactly what they should do.

This is inhuman excuse...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 0:10 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (31 responses)

Sigh. Nazi analogies are no more useful or appropriate here than disease analogies.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 8:56 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (25 responses)

I've used Nazis not as analogue but as an example. There are others, but nazis are best known. They show succinctly why "but this is the law" defense is just wrong.

This is important if we want to discuss patents fairly. Yes, laws are the laws, there are penalties for violation so you don't ignore them easily. But even Bible includes unlawful deeds made by prophets (think "The Exodus"). If you want to use "but this is the law" excuse then you must put law above everything - and eventually even above God. But if you did that then why do you react so negatively to Nazi stories related to law? The answer: Nazis are well-known story where "but this is the law" excuse led to incredible disaster and where the legitimately passed law was explicitly declared unjust later - and so they must be ignored and everyone who raises them publicly should be ridiculed and ostracized for the good of "but this is the law" religion.

Yes, it makes discussion not rational but religious instead: if you don't want to accept primacy of Law and try to disprove this primacy then you are heretic and must be destroyed. Sorry, but I don't want to discuss religion beliefs here.

On the other hand if you admit that law is often wrong then we can discuss patents fairly: first we should determine if they are good or bad (and there are ample evidence that they are bad: for example here), then we can decide what can be done about them without violating the law (the answer: not much, you can not ignore them and usually the only sane choice is to counterattack), etc.

BTW it's obvious to anyone who's not subscribing to "the law is always right" religion that law is not always right: if "the law is always right" then why we have such a massive legislature in all countries which constantly changes this "always right"? And if law is not always right then why can't we discuss cases where it's not right? Why the law is even brought as excuse when we discuss if something is right or wrong? BTW when law is wrong, the goal is usually to change or circumvent the law, but as last resort law can be broken, too, if it's fatally unjust.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 12:11 UTC (Mon) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (5 responses)

And if law is not always right then why can't we discuss cases where it's not right?

I think we absolutely have to be able to discuss where the law is not right, why it isn't right, and what one can do to reconcile one's desire to do the right thing with the effect of unjust laws. And it's certainly not inappropriate to indicate that one doesn't accept the law as it stands, even if it does leave a certain amount of uncertainty about what one would recommend to, say, a business that risks getting prosecuted under such laws.

Indeed, when people advocate that others shut up and accept the law, the burden is on those people to clarify whether they are only doing so in support of general obedience of the law (perhaps to caution others that they might be prosecuted, and even then, a continuous insistence that others "observe the law" makes for a tiresome Judge Dredd impersonation), whether they are doing so because they actually support the law as it stands, or whether it is because they see the law as having some legitimacy that is potentially derived from those who openly support it. Take this comment from Mr Mueller, for example:

The NoSoftwarePatents cause has too little support from businesses. I explained in this recent LWN comment what it would take to convince politicians of abolition. So contrary to what some people sometimes allege, I don't just criticize but actually say what would be required.

Beyond the observation that the best way to convince politicians is to show them an open briefcase filled with money, are we to believe that Mr Mueller regards the law as legitimate because large companies support it (or are not opposed to it), and that a revised law would only be legitimate if large companies supported it?

This isn't idle debate, either: such matters have a significant effect on public policy. Should a society only invest in, say, renewable energy when the major oil companies decide it is appropriate? After all, they make the big money in that sector...

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 18:19 UTC (Mon) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link] (4 responses)

>> Take this comment from Mr Mueller, for example:
>> > The NoSoftwarePatents cause has too little support from businesses.

The rationale used to attack the FSF effort was the size of the companies supporting the bad law (and you gave a great example to show the problems with that approach).

What I find impressive is that, with the limited funds the FSF has, they were able to get a lot of independent units to sign on. A statistically rigorous analysis might confirm the FSF's claims and more.

I think it would help if the FSF went back and encouraged all of those small firms to add to their website a section where customers that supported those firms could easily send a letter (or sign a petition) to gov reps against software patents.

Many engineers that take out patents think it is a joke. And corps that take out many of them may largely use them for defensive purposes (and Sun had many hardware patents, not just software) http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/the_shit_finally_h... . If Sun didn't have to deal with the lawsuits and time and cost and practice of taking out patent, they might still be around. The patent game is won by the most aggressive and by the largest. Most firms have reasons to dislike the economic effects patents (especially those that are but software algorithm patents in disguise) have on their firms. The bigger suitcase of patents and army of lawyer is the net winner, before the product is even looked at. And the stifling effects of patents are part of their overall unethical associations.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 18:37 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (3 responses)

Many engineers that take out patents think it is a joke.

Perhaps you imagine that Google should go into court and tell the judge, "But those engineers were just joking when they submitted those patents!"

Hey, could work.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 19:04 UTC (Mon) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link] (2 responses)

Your point is about dealing with the reality of lawsuits today.

I think Google may use many tools, and certainly a survey of the motivational and quality value of patent content, generally, by those practicing the art, could be one such tool.

Such opinions could also help adjust the law (which has nothing to do with Google, but everything to do with software patents and the threats these pose to lots and lots of people).

The more people that dislike software patents and can offer reasons, the more likely change will come.

Maybe Google and these suits will become a catalyst for the next major round of activity against software patents.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 19:29 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (1 responses)

Your point is about dealing with the reality of lawsuits today.

Indeed. That is, in fact, the subject of this story, as it turns out: the reality of a lawsuit today.

Your point, speaking generously, might be about the desirability of changing the patent system at some unspecified point in the future—but doubtless too far off to be of any assistance to Motorola, HTC or Google—through means that are completely unclear, other than they seem to have something to do with getting greater numbers of people to whine ineffectually about the situation in the comments columns of various web sites.

I'm not sure this is really your best strategy. The "last major round of activity against software patents" in the US produced not a lot of comfort for your cause, as Florian has correctly pointed out: of the two routes they might have taken, the court took the more expansive view rather than the more restrictive one, all in all. If you do nearly as "well" in the next round, you'll be complaining even more loudly.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 5, 2010 2:46 UTC (Tue) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link]

>> The "last major round of activity against software patents" in the US produced not a lot of comfort for your cause, as Florian has correctly pointed out: of the two routes they might have taken, the court took the more expansive view rather than the more restrictive one, all in all. If you do nearly as "well" in the next round, you'll be complaining even more loudly.

For a number of reasons the situation is better. They agreed machine-or-transformation is a fairly comprehensive test, and they repeated that algorithms are abstract and obvious post solution activity cannot make the invention patentable.

They apparently knocked State Street out, and this had been used to broaden the standard in what machines/processes might be patentable.

They added as void (9-0) another example of a patent many patent supporters thought should have been acceptable.

The main problem for me is desktop software being erroneously patented. Bilski can definitely help fix this by more than just a trivial amount.

Also, a phone and many other devices should be treated similarly for patent purposes if the magic of the phone is via software instructions on ordinarily programmable chips. These are just ideal algorithms being carried out dutifully by a general purpose machine designed independent of the actual software algorithms (so it is non-novel and obvious at the time of the software invention), and the machine works to achieve the same exact value result a human would achieve. All hardware interactions are non-novel in the standard case (of the programmable chips and software). Note, that a machine created specifically to function just with those algorithms might be patentable, but that is different than having a person run those algorithms on their own general purpose machine (or, eg, existing phone). Updatable phones are not being changed in hardware (firmware upgrades might change the equation for the purpose of this narrow analysis).

There is room to argue either way, but the above is mostly why I think the situation is better today. How much near term improvement (anti-sw-pat) happens, if any, will depend on the interpretation adopted by the USPTO and future lower court judges.

Also, others will argue fairly well (and I could to some extent, but, for various reasons, I am willing to focus on the more gross problems) that even much hardware circuit logic (especially using old technology for digital behavior) also should not be patentable because these are an expression of mathematics. Eg, see http://web.archive.org/web/20200102195352/http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2010092621054289

Also, the court has not ruled on criteria that I think more clearly should remove software from patenting: does it promote the progress (a monopoly hand-cuffs many in the software field which creates a huge liability, especially because it lasts so long), are the patent laws equitable to all or do they discriminate, is free speech being hindered, etc.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 13:14 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (18 responses)

They show succinctly why "but this is the law" defense is just wrong.

You're confused again: "this is the law" is not a "defense", it's a simple statement of fact. That is the law. Disliking it does not exempt one from it, and "I don't believe that's the law, or at least, it shouldn't be" is not a defense, either.

Leave the Nazis out next time, you make yourself look as though you're not worth listening to by bringing in inflammatory irrelevancies.

But even Bible includes unlawful deeds made by prophets (think "The Exodus").

When patent law comes to rely on the Bible, then that might be relevant. But it doesn't and it's not.

On the other hand if you admit that law is often wrong...

However, I don't believe the law is wrong in this case: I believe that Google, in its creation of Android—an effort in which it both set out to leverage the works of others while engaging in a variety of efforts to attempt to avoid the responsibilities attendant on using those works—almost certainly violated a variety of patents held (now) by Oracle, as well as a variety held by Apple, as well as a variety held by Microsoft. Google did an end-run around the Sun's Java licensing provisions with Dalvik, and they did an end-run around the GPL with Bionic.

I believe there's a good likelihood that Google is in the wrong here, not the law. Google's not being victimized here, there's a serious question about the propriety of their actions.

Finally, you seem to be under the impression that I'm arguing that "the law is always right". This is most certainly not the case. The time to argue that a law is wrong, however, is not immediately after you've been charged with a crime under it. Presumably Google didn't create Android in order to be able to demonstrate their "civil disobedience" as far as patents went, but if they did, then they'll be gratified to be hauled into court, I suppose, and you shouldn't get in their way.

If a law is wrong, you need to get the law changed, not whine about it's being wrong, not pretend it doesn't exist, not compare it with "plague" and "Nazis" and "unlawful prophets", none of which have anything to do with anything here.

Those who believe that the prohibition against recreational use of marijuana in California is wrong are working, for example, to pass Proposition 19 to get the law changed. That's what you do when you think the law is wrong: you try to get the law changed. You don't pretend that it's okay to ignore violations of the law while it's still on the books, though. If someone is caught with a joint in California, "I support Prop 19!" is not going to help them in court (and least not before it passes, assuming it does pass, in November).

While there are problems with the patent system—largely owing to its being overloaded, and to terms of protection being arguably too long, and costs of litigation being too high. The latter seems to be the worst of the issues, and could be very easily remedied by the courts' adopting the principle that in a patent infringement case, if the defendant wins, the plaintiff pays all costs.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 17:54 UTC (Mon) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link] (5 responses)

>> You're confused again: "this is the law" is not a "defense", it's a simple statement of fact.

This is the law is a defense as used by some. Perhaps you weren't using it as a defense, but it can certainly be a technique used to avoid discussing the fairness and desirability of a given law. Why might someone want to avoid such a discussion? Because they might support such a law and not want opposition to the law to grow enough to help it effect a changing of the law.

In short, if a person is defending something that benefits from the continuance of a given law, then "this is the law" is one approach to trying to defend the lasting condition of that law.

>> almost certainly violated a variety of patents held (now) by Oracle, as well as a variety held by Apple, as well as a variety held by Microsoft.
>> I believe there's a good likelihood that Google is in the wrong here, not the law. Google's not being victimized here, there's a serious question about the propriety of their actions.

Are you talking about the (legally unacceptable) patenting of algorithms? The USPTO just asked for guidance in light of Bilski. Many people, for example, had used State Street decision to support the granting of "software patents" and very likely acquired these patents which were only justified by State Street interpretations of the law.

>> If a law is wrong, you need to get the law changed, not whine about it's being wrong, not pretend it doesn't exist, not compare it with "plague" and "Nazis" and "unlawful prophets", none of which have anything to do with anything here.

Your motivation is proper, but you do understand why people feel frustration and consider analogies, right?

>> While there are problems with the patent system—largely owing to its being overloaded, and to terms of protection being arguably too long, and costs of litigation being too high.

There are other important problems (independent invention not recognized; burden of proof should be on the attacker; patenting being so costly creates a situation where small and medium entities can be sued repeatedly without them having leverage; prior art not being usable to sue for damage against those that sue with patents; the criteria of "nonobvious" being such a low bar that inevitable stifles when under any sort of stress; patents not being clearly ruled out in cases where the costs of manufacture were not very high; ..)

Yes, I agree with your examples as well. Thankfully, the abstract was clarified in Bilski not to be patentable. And process patents likely must pass the machine-or-transformation test and various past SCOTUS rulings (eg, to avoid a loophole of sneaking in information patents as a way to use a common machine for it's intended purposes).

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 5, 2010 0:31 UTC (Tue) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (4 responses)

Thankfully, the abstract was clarified in Bilski not to be patentable.

Don't be too thankful yet: a "load-leveling" method for NAND Flash, to cite just one example, ain't that "abstract". And with the sheer number of patents that are being brought to bear against Android overall, with suits against Motorola, HTC, and Google itself—it's highly unlikely that all of them are going to be tossed out.

please cut out the bold

Posted Oct 5, 2010 0:58 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (2 responses)

Lefty,
the italics for quotes is a good idea, but the bold is a bit jarring

please cut out the bold

Posted Oct 5, 2010 1:29 UTC (Tue) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (1 responses)

Yikes. Regardless of anyone's ability to contribute to the actual discussion, it's always possible to quibble about quoting styles, I suppose.

I'll certainly take it under advisement, but I've used that quoting style for probably eight years, in a wide variety of contexts, and in all that time, you and Martin are actually the first two to ever mention it, much less complain about it. Forgive me if it strikes me as just a wee bit high-strung—I have to wonder how you manage to walk down the street if you find simple bold text this "jarring" that it's worth commenting on, much less demanding that I do something different. And what am I to do when the guy who hates italics comes along?

Now, I've seen someone using blockquote and purple text here, which I personally found visually irritating, especially in relation to the rest of the site's color scheme, but I managed to restrain myself from remarking on it. Should I have advised him to conform to my own preferred style...? Evidently not, since that would apparently vex you. It's a problem.

Tell you what: since this is evidently your "itch" to "scratch", why don't you and Martin start up a study group to put together—or better still, demand that Jon put together (purely so I can see his response, actually)—an HTML Style Guide for LWN.net?

please cut out the bold

Posted Oct 5, 2010 5:38 UTC (Tue) by ABCD (subscriber, #53650) [Link]

Any logged-in user can change the displayed color of the “purple text” via My Account → Customize your account (the option is “Quoted text (in email) color” under “Display preferences”—not to be confused with “Quoted text preferences”, which is the dark red color in articles), so if you don't like that color, just change it. ☺

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 5, 2010 2:57 UTC (Tue) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link]

>> a "load-leveling" method for NAND Flash, to cite just one example, ain't that "abstract".

I will guess what that is about, and it seems it isn't a software patent issue in the sense of limiting what software you run on the device.

I worry as a user and foss developer. Sure, patents have problems for many groups. The idea though is that once you buy the hardware, the patent issue has been resolved and you can create for it whatever software you want.

The open source hardware people will have more stuff to worry about, yes. And indirectly so will those of us that would prefer open source hardware.

One reason I care more about software is that most changes and creations occur as software. To relate to a different field, I don't want novels and other writings to be bogged down by patent monopolists. That too would remove too much from society.

I think one way to get the legal profession to rethink patents would be to allow patents for the work carried out routinely in that profession. A monopoly is just disgusting (for most participants) if you care about the practice.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 17:56 UTC (Mon) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (11 responses)

'If a law is wrong, you need to get the law changed, not whine about it's being wrong, not pretend it doesn't exist, not compare it with "plague" and "Nazis" and "unlawful prophets", none of which have anything to do with anything here.'

You clearly are stating your opinion about what should be done when a law is bad, but dismissed the original poster's opinion on how he feels people should deal with bad laws. His Nazi example gave good justification for why simply attempting to change the law is often not a good enough solution. Do you have a good justification why people should live with unjust laws and only fight them by attempting to overturn them? Can you cite some examples where this has ever been effective for radical change?

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 19:38 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (10 responses)

....dismissed the original poster's opinion on how he feels people should deal with bad laws...

I did, indeed, because—in the reality of the situation which this story discusses—his "opinion" on how "people" (presumably Motorola, in this instance) should deal with a (putatively) "bad law" (i.e. the law regarding the infringement of patents) is ridiculous and pointless.

His "opinion" is evidently that Motorola should march into court and announce that the law is bad and that they refuse to be a party in any way, shape or form to this proceeding and then march out again.

Flawless Victory.

I frankly don't see Motorola coming out ahead in the end with an approach like that. So, should I have given his "opinion" deeper consideration? Why?

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 19:58 UTC (Mon) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (9 responses)

If that is truly what you think he was suggesting (and not simply taking things to your chosen conclusion only to contradict his statement), then what were you suggesting? You said that people should get unjust laws changed instead? So if I restate your opinion the way that you so conveniently restated his: "Motorola should not got to court, they should simply lobby to change the law". Hmmm, flawless? Do you see them coming out ahead with such an approach?

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 20:21 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (8 responses)

Well, if that wasn't what he was suggesting, he needs to be clearer. In the face of a law requiring the reporting of Jewish patients to Nazi authorities, he stated that he wouldn't do so. How else is one to project that into the situation we're actually discussing? What should Motorola do based on this model, if not what I suggested? All I can see for them, in order to flout this "bad law", is to refuse to participate. Which would likely wind up in them owing Microsoft quite a bit of money, as I suggested.

And no, I've never proposed that Motorola should take the course of action you suggest. They're named as a defendant in a suit (remember, that's what we're actually discussing here), and they need to respond to that, either by fighting it or by settling it. That would seem to be the range and breadth of their available options.

I have no reason to believe that Motorola—the possessor of a significant patent portfolio themselves—have any desire to see the law changed, but if they do, it's a completely separate (although not entirely unrelated) issue to what they do in response to this actual suit. It's in no way a response to the suit which is the subject of this story—something the poster in question failed to provide.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 21:01 UTC (Mon) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (7 responses)

You seem bent on ignoring what people are actually talking about when it suits you and simply returning to what you think the conversation should be about.

Yes, perhaps the the original statement was off topic and not very relevant to the exact conversation which started the threads, but it veered off course before he responded. It's understandable if such threads are hard to follow. But, it was clear that the original statement
(http://lwn.net/Articles/408287/ "If the game is deadly and unjust (like software patents game is) you must play it as little as possible...") was one a generalized approach to fighting bad law. I was responding to your clearly generalized statement that this is bad (http://lwn.net/Articles/408334/ "If a law is wrong, you need to get the law changed...")

Claiming that the conversation was about Motorola specifically and droning on about your conclusions on this case seems rather pointless and evasive. You won't stand by your statements when they are pointed out to be potentially flawed, you simply tell us that we should be returning to the original topic.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 21:30 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (6 responses)

You seem bent on ignoring what people are actually talking about when it suits you...

Actually, I'm "bent" on attempting to discuss the substance of this story, not people's inappropriate equivalencing of patents with plague. Silliness like that deserves to be ignored, once it's been pointed out as silly.

Yes, perhaps the the original statement was off topic and not very relevant to the exact conversation which started the threads...

Which would make it "off-topic" and "irrelevant", as I've said.

It's understandable if such threads are hard to follow.

They're not hard: they're pointless. Being off-topic and irrelevant, they add nothing to the actual discussion.

...a generalized approach to fighting bad law...

Fine. And I've challenged him—or you—to show me how this "generalized approach" actually applies in this case. I've suggested that Motorola could boycott the proceedings entirely, which would result in their getting their asses decisively kicked. What's your suggestion, then? Or did you just feel like hijacking the comments here to declare your love of civil disobedience or something...?

Claiming that the conversation was about Motorola specifically and droning on about your conclusions on this case seems rather pointless and evasive. You won't stand by your statements when they are pointed out to be potentially flawed, you simply tell us that we should be returning to the original topic.

Perhaps you can show me more specifically where my "statements...are pointed out to be potentially flawed". I'm not seeing it, and I believe that you're making that claim as a dodge to continue an irrelevant and off-topic line of discussion, possibly because you feel you're at a disadvantage in actually discussing this story (which is about, let us recall, "Motorola specifically").

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 21:54 UTC (Mon) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (5 responses)

Yes, my point was (and so was likely the original poster's), that civil disobedience can be appropriate. If you are so annoyed that this is off topic, why did you respond in the first place? And why, do you keep assuming that everyone else should care only about what you think is important or talk about what you think is important. Do you see the irony? We are not playing the same game, but you are trying to make us! :)

I have little opinion about what Motorola should do, it doesn't justify your dismissal of so many people's opinions here, nor your flip flopping and shouting (that is what you sound like). And, if you can't admit that it might be flawed to solely attempt to "change bad law" in many cases, well, then I feel very saddened that you would be willing to apply bad law to people simply because it is law.

P.S. Do you really need to bold and italicize everything you quote (it has a strong shouting impact which perhaps you do not intend)?

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 22:08 UTC (Mon) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

P.S. Do you really need to bold and italicize everything you quote (it has a strong shouting impact which perhaps you do not intend)?

Indeed, I find the blockquote tag suitable for quoting text, although others surely have their own favourites.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 23:01 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (3 responses)

...civil disobedience can be appropriate...

So you keep claiming, but when asked (repeatedly) to provide a practical example of how it would be appropriate, or even applicable, to this situation, you come up with nothing. Less than nothing, really.

I have little opinion about what Motorola should do...

Then why are you posting here? If you simply want to air off-topic opinions, or regale the world with your views on unrelated matters, get yourself a blog. This is for commenting on the stories published here, something which seems to have escaped your notice.

Do you really need to bold and italicize everything you quote...

Yes. I really do. It's called "HTML". It's used widely on this new thing called "the web". I suppose you're simply going to have to bear with me.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 23:13 UTC (Mon) by martinfick (subscriber, #4455) [Link] (2 responses)

OK, I'll take that as "I intend to shout at you and everyone else here".

Yes, I have commented way too much already, for this I am sorry. I agree that my words are not that important. But, yours apparently are, your comment count on this article is 25 so far, I suspect more than anyone else. The personal blog idea, it's probably a good one.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 23:38 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (1 responses)

I'll take that as "I intend to shout at you and everyone else here".

Well, you can certainly take it any way you please, Martin, that's your lookout, not mine. My "shouting at you" is entirely in your head, a complete figment of your own imagination, and I accept no responsibility whatsoever for it.

I don't recall saying that your words weren't "important", but I did suggest that you were being off-topic, and you seemed to agree. I don't recall insisting that my words were "important", either, but as someone who's assisted in the writing of patents and developing strategy around patent portfolios on a professional basis, I actually have an interest in the substance of this story, as opposed to using it as a hobbyhorse for venting my various political views on tangential or unrelated issues.

Again: if you want to discuss actual patent reform in concrete and informed terms, fine. If you want to discuss this story, fine.

However, if you just saw the words "Microsoft" and "patent" and had some sort of Pavlovian impulse to just drop in and tell us all how nice it would be the world were an entirely different place than the place it is, or inform us as to Florian's choices of software, or call people names, or insist that patents are a disease, or let us know what the appropriate response to Nazis demanding whether you have Jewish patients in your hospital might be, that seems unreasonable to me.

This is probably the end of discussion...

Posted Oct 5, 2010 8:59 UTC (Tue) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

Another option is to put a "> " at that start of the line. LWN automatically marks it up like this:

> blah blah blah

This is inhuman excuse...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 17:32 UTC (Mon) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link] (4 responses)

>> Sigh. Nazi analogies are no more useful or appropriate here than disease analogies.

You do know the meaning of an "analogy", right?

I am sure we could find suitable analogies between progress destroying, industry debilitating, consumer taxing, freedom abridging entities like the above and software patents.

This is inhuman excuse...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 17:54 UTC (Mon) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link]

I am sure we could find suitable analogies between progress destroying, industry debilitating, consumer taxing, freedom abridging entities like the above and software patents.

Except that there's no need to: an example was made using a situation widely regarded as one where the applicable laws were unjust and where one would rightfully choose not to accept the imposition of such laws. Thus, it was merely an illustration of the principle of not accepting bad laws, not to provide an excuse for people to "cry Godwin".

This is inhuman excuse...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 18:31 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (2 responses)

Indeed, I do know the meaning of "analogy", and, as a side note, I'd caution you against attempting to cross vocabularies with me: you'll find you do so at your distinct peril.

Now, plagues are noted for killing their victims indiscriminately; Nazis are noted for instigating wars and committing willful genocide. Software patents do none of those things, and to make analogies which somehow suggest that they do leaves the impression that you lack even the slightest sense of actual perspective on the situation.

This impression may, for all I know, be entirely accurate. If it isn't, however, and if you don't care to make the impression that you're simply a histrionic indulging in ridiculous hyperbole, you should choose your analogies more carefully. If your certainty is accurate, see whether you can manage to make better (or even some) sense next time around.

This is inhuman excuse...

Posted Oct 5, 2010 3:04 UTC (Tue) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link] (1 responses)

>> This impression may, for all I know, be entirely accurate. If it isn't, however, and if you don't care to make the impression that you're simply a histrionic indulging in ridiculous hyperbole, you should choose your analogies more carefully. If your certainty is accurate, see whether you can manage to make better (or even some) sense next time around.

Well, I didn't make the analogies. I'm not even sure if I read over the examples, but I could find common points and so I replied. Using hyperbole can be a very useful tool.

Someone (pboddie) who apparently did pay more attention to the example already commented on it in a reply to me. It was stated that the analogy was aimed at our relationships to bad laws (and not specifically a patent issue).

This is inhuman excuse...

Posted Oct 5, 2010 6:24 UTC (Tue) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link]

Using hyperbole can be a very useful tool.

If you're attempting to appeal to emotion rather than reason, perhaps.

It was stated that the analogy was aimed at our relationships to bad laws (and not specifically a patent issue).

Which would make it off-topic and irrelevant, unless someone can manage to tie it back to a patent issue, something which no one seems capable of managing.

It's simpler...

Posted Oct 3, 2010 23:46 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (7 responses)

"I don't believe in patents!" does not constitute a defense against claims of patent infringement.

Of course not. "I don't really believe I infringe these patents but I agree not to ask USITC to ban Kinect for violation of my patents... if we'll just sign a blanket patent agreement" is valid defense.

Rejection of patents does not mean you should ignore court or fight to the death, but you must at least force the aggressor to sign an agreement which is not saying you accept these particular patents. Sure, Microsoft will go to bully others, but this is the least you can do.

Why? Easy: this is the only outcome it can agree to: if Motorola acknowledge validness of FAT patents it'll lose the ability to use Android with FAT support. Because such agreement will be direct violation of paragraph 7 of GPLv2.

Yes, it's probably true that Motorola will pay "Microsoft tax" in the end, but it must do so without ever admitting they violated any software patents in first place. It's easy for Motorola or any handset manufacturer because there are hardware patents involved and it can always claim the real agreement was about these and software patents were just included in blanket agreement - but for pure software company it's much harder. That's why handset manufacturers must deal with patents, not anyone else.

As for name-calling... I do treat real participants with respect, but any "free software activist" who uses Windows 7 and MS Office 2010 while offering to use "an alternative, legally safe platform such as .NET/C#" is a shill or troll who does not deserve it. I'm not sure if he's paid by Microsoft or just thinks he can discredit FOSS by playing it's friend - and don't really care.

It's simpler...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 0:17 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (6 responses)

"I don't really believe I infringe these patents but I agree not to ask USITC to ban Kinect for violation of my patents... if we'll just sign a blanket patent agreement" is valid defense.

That doesn't sound like a defense, that sounds like a settlement offer.

if Motorola acknowledge validness of FAT patents it'll lose the ability to use Android with FAT support.

As Florian has correctly pointed out, there's no need for Motorola to "acknowledge validness [sic] of these patents": in every single instance where Microsoft has brought them out, the parties have settled. This suggests pretty strongly that there is, indeed, something to them. They've never been shown to be invalid.

I do treat real participants with respect...

I beg to differ. People are free to use the software and equipment that they prefer. They are not required to submit to some sort of litmus test as a precondition for being treated with simple decency, something at which you're shown yourself to be a consistent and ongoing failure, as you've demonstrated right here, yet again.

On the contrary...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 8:13 UTC (Mon) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (2 responses)

That doesn't sound like a defense, that sounds like a settlement offer.

Not every battle is worth fighting. Sometimes you even need to surrender the capital to win the war. But the important thing here is to surrender as little as possible and leave as much freedom for counterattack as possible.

In every single instance where Microsoft has brought them out, the parties have settled. This suggests pretty strongly that there is, indeed, something to them. They've never been shown to be invalid.

Sorry, but no. Please read: this myth is already disproved. If some patent is brought again and again it's prime evidence that patent is baseless and the company just tries to squeeze as much money as possible from it before it becomes invalid. This is usually done by picking weak companies who can not afford not to lose but to just even fight - and we know it's exactly what Microsoft did with these patents. Oracle patents look much, much better in comparison: they are brought against single strong rival, they are brought in court only (so there are do undue pressure to settle lawsuit even if patents are unenforceable), etc. It does not mean Oracle is right, of course (think SCO), but it looks somewhat plausible: this looks like an attack of someone who believes he's right. Microsoft attack? Racketeering under fig leaf of "we must protect our IP" rhetoric, plain and simple.

They are not required to submit to some sort of litmus test as a precondition for being treated with simple decency, something at which you're shown yourself to be a consistent and ongoing failure, as you've demonstrated right here, yet again.

Funny that. Why do you think Bill Clinton never used such defense before the Senate? The answer is simple: public figures are different. They are held to higher standards. So why Florian deserves anything else? He pretends to be FOSS activist. You can not do that while using latest Microsoft products. I can buy the excuse "Oh, you know, I'm so accustomed to this 10-years old WordPerfect that I'm still using it". Barely: while it's often hard to break old habits and switch to different program ten years is looong time and if you can not find a replacement in ten years then the question arises about you dedication to FOSS. But latest and greatest Microsoft products? Sorry, but this makes you shill and you must be treated as such. It's not as if Florian decided to become "FOSS activist" yesterday.

On the contrary...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 13:24 UTC (Mon) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link]

Not every battle is worth fighting...

Well, you don't get to choose whether or not to "fight" a patent suit in which you've been named. I don't think Google has enough to "surrender" to get itself out of this in that fashion, and I suspect that Oracle, at least, is not interested in playing that way.

Sorry, but no.

Well, you can speculate about it all you want, but these particular patents have not lost at any trial so far. If you want to see the matter settled, then you should be gratified to see Google getting taken to court. Maybe they will manage to invalidate those patents. Having actually read them, though, I don't share your confidence here, and given the number of patents that Google (or its Android-phone-manufacturing tributaries) have been accused of violating, I seriously doubt they're going to be able to get them all invalidated. Be interesting to see them try.

Why do you think Bill Clinton never used such defense before the Senate? The answer is simple: public figures are different. They are held to higher standards.

Except that "public figure" has a pretty specific meaning, and while Bill Clinton might qualify, it's highly doubtful that Florian does. Your arguing that he's a "public figure", purely in order to allow you to call him names with impunity, seems to suggest that your actual interests here stem largely to trolling for effect. You're certainly not doing yourself any favors here with this.

On the contrary...

Posted Oct 6, 2010 18:22 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Actually, I'd say a ten-year old WordPerfect is probably the best word processor ever! :-)

Ever since version 9 its attempts to copy Word have been dragging it downhill...

Cheers,
Wol

It's simpler...

Posted Oct 4, 2010 18:01 UTC (Mon) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link] (2 responses)

>> As Florian has correctly pointed out, there's no need for Motorola to "acknowledge validness [sic] of these patents": in every single instance where Microsoft has brought them out, the parties have settled. This suggests pretty strongly that there is, indeed, something to them. They've never been shown to be invalid.

I don't work for Microsoft in a high enough position (or in any position) to know if your statement is likely true or not, but people settle to avoid very costly litigation, thinking there aren't alternatives. It's also possible the terms benefited the other party monetarily or perhaps the other party was convinced to adopt an interest in future royalties from those or other patents.

There truly are quite a few possibilities, and for all we know, the terms of the offer got better and better the more the sued entity called the bluff. Microsoft has at least given away their software in cases where they thought they would lose the whole deal to Linux, for example. The fact is that creating the belief that their patents are legit is very valuable to Microsoft so naturally they might consider paying money in the short-term to help promote that view.

It's simpler...

Posted Oct 5, 2010 1:50 UTC (Tue) by Lefty (guest, #51528) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't work for Microsoft in a high enough position (or in any position) to know if your statement is likely true or not...

If you did, you wouldn't tell me outside of a licensing discussion conducted under a pretty stiff non-disclosure agreement.

...for all we know, the terms of the offer got better and better the more the sued entity called the bluff...

This seems a little unlikely. Why would anyone ever stop "calling the bluff" under those circumstances?

Microsoft has at least given away their software in cases where they thought they would lose the whole deal to Linux, for example.

Which provides exactly zero support for the notion that they'd give way a license on these patents.

The patents are public, and readable by anyone who cares to, including patent attorneys who are not only extremely skilled in the law, but who also well understand the technology. So, somehow, no one in Tom Tom's legal department, and no one in Motorola's legal department, and in fact, no one in the entire legal world has really been able to convince themselves that there are flaws in these patents worth bringing into a courtroom.

In spite of this, you continue to be certain—and the basis for that certainty is very unclear—that they're somehow lurking in there.

It's simpler...

Posted Oct 5, 2010 3:23 UTC (Tue) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link]

>> This seems a little unlikely. Why would anyone ever stop "calling the bluff" under those circumstances?

Because in some cases it might not be a bluff (I'm thinking poker). The contexts would be different across parties. As an example related to Windows being given cheaply, this would depend on the size of the account and on how likely Microsoft thinks they might stick with Linux and influence others.

Also, each different party is likely unaware of what the earlier party got.

[So, I didn't intend to suggest a generalization, but was suggesting that in some cases it might be happening that those that "call the bluff" somewhat get more than others that don't.]

>> Which provides exactly zero support for the notion that they'd give way a license on these patents.

No, because the point is that the end game is not just that one party. There are consequences for gaining or losing an account. This is particularly important for those that deal heavily in monopolies and/or rely on certain psychological tools working for them.

>> So, somehow, no one in Tom Tom's legal department, and no one in Motorola's legal department, and in fact, no one in the entire legal world has really been able to convince themselves that there are flaws in these patents worth bringing into a courtroom.

Again, not necessarily at all.

Microsoft picks and chooses the licensee (they haven't created problems for everyone). This is where the bluff comes in. In some cases, Microsoft will not budge, but in others they will because there could be costs to their overall end game.

Eg, having a streak of "winning" negotiations is very valuable for lowering future resistance; hence, to preserve that advantage, they might settle with someone under terms where all references to the deal would be in terms laid out by Microsoft, and Microsoft might even pay the other party for this privilege (of course, this would be a case of a bluff gone badly, since Microsoft can generally just ignore someone if they think that party might conceivably end up creating problems for Microsoft).

All of these are realistic business possibilities.

Another possibility is that Microsoft has offered to share future royalty payments.

Another possibility is that Microsoft argues that striking any sort of eventual deal can help the other company by trying to argue that supporting software patents would help that party down the line.

These are all realistic business possibilities. Microsoft might try these or others on a case by case basis. Why not? Is business not their game? Are they likely not very clever and resourceful?

Of course patents exist - and so does plague

Posted Oct 4, 2010 17:29 UTC (Mon) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link]

>> There's nothing natural about a handset manufacturer "rejecting" a claim of patent infringement, not if they want to stay in business, as Nokia (for example) discovered, unless you think it's also "natural" that they also ignore the courts and decisions coming from those courts which negatively affect the companies prospects.

Well, the very recent Bilski decision affirmed a strong machine-or-transformation test and essentially gutted State Street which had raised lots of fears and appeared to be in effect just prior to Bilski.

Nokia has made some smart moves towards open source and the wider community (eg, Linux). We collectively have a lot of influence, ability to help argue down patents (including finding prior art), the moral high ground (which is very useful before a jury of peers), a real value proposition for society that surpasses the patents yet is threatened by them. ETC.

Most companies are much smaller than Nokia; however, anyone can become the target of a shakedown. Software is everywhere. We all use it and many create extensions with it. We all need to speak up and band together. Collaborate. There is strength in numbers (especially with individual independent voices).

Patent trolls have gained prominence (eg, because of past former Microsoft execs) and represent a growing threat.. their taxes can be very significant. Their taxing will remove money from the system (including profits the government itself might have anticipated taxing for socially beneficial purposes). And some large companies also support the taxing and competition repressing (anti-consumer) features of the power that come with patents (so they would want software patents to be legitimized).

What is Florian's strategy?

Posted Oct 4, 2010 17:18 UTC (Mon) by hozelda (guest, #19341) [Link]

>> Spending your time pretending they don't, or wishing they didn't, isn't terribly constructive.

Exactly, it's important to communicate the problems. Communicate with others in your industry (eg, software related or nonsoftware related), with customers, and with government representatives. Eg, add an easy to use form to your website allowing customers to write to their reps and/or sign a petition.

I see a lot of companies not getting active and being shaken down, perhaps repeatedly over the coming decade. People that haven't yet would probably gain from uniting and supporting each other. Software patents allow a small group to tax the industry and consumers. It's a game won by the big money and the "trolls" that don't produce products but simply shake people down. If you produce, you will have to face a constant risk from trolls and a larger group that wants you to pay significant fees to cover their many many patents.

Heck, independent invention and fair use are not built into the law.

[Well, patents weren't used against so many people traditionally, because a motivation for the law was to facilitate capitalization into the real dollar millions of dollars to manufacture the item.]

Original software (with many many unpatented ideas and perhaps almost entirely original expressive content (a la copyright law) is being created by many people in very large quantities and used in very sophisticated systems. Much of this software I refer to is also openly revealed to the world and available for $0 (Linux is an example). This is only possible because software is expression, afterward simply automatically loaded into the device that will use it. Anyone can do this. You don't need a million dollars, and a monopoly is ridiculous (that is why the SCOTUS ruled algorithms to be abstract and believes the machine-or-transformation test is a very very good test). A monopoly (enforced) would tie up so many people and add so much overall cost that free speech at a large scale would be violated in practice and innovation smacked hard down. Progress would not be promoted, and many people's original existing works would be deemed illegal if we are to believe the threats of the people holding the software patent paper on such software.

Look at how funny is the patent law in general though obviously the real harm becomes clear once it affects a large number of creators and users directly: it says that to get a patent, you have to "invent" something.. get this.. non-obvious to a person having ordinary skill in the art!!

Now, this means that if you are starting off "in the art" today, and you take a year to figure something out (ie, you didn't think it was obvious), that this could very well have been allowed to be patented by the USPTO by someone ahead of you and be in effect today. It also means that if you are experienced (eg, your employees or those contributing open source software like Linux that you might use), then a monopoly is being granted on things these experienced people very possibly consider to be obvious and already anticipated or could deduce very quickly .. or perhaps have even developed already.

Unless you ask for help from the people sharing their prior art (the open source world), you may not realize that prior art existed. [Open source collaboration took off with the creation and rise of the Internet, btw. It's a superior model -- collaboration is -- that some of these patent attackers want to hold back to preserve their old ways and very high profits on information bits we call software.. eg, like the bits on a software CD -- a CD is a machine!! how funny. What's next, to claim that putting that information into your computer is a patenable act!! Anyway, open source allows people to charge for their time to integrate and expand such software in custom ways (as well as other possibilities), but do not in practice allow anyone to become billionaire by.. um.. "printing money". Again, don't forget that if software patents were legal, they would pre-empt original works many could perform in an afternoon or 10 in their homes and then share with the world by dinner time (on the 10th day).]

And no matter how talented someone is (or not), they can't be the first to do everything (and most creators, can't afford to patent a tiny fraction of all their ideas). Everyone can't be first by definition. So we give a monopoly to a single -- that's right, a single -- person to stop everyone else coming to the same conclusions is say a year's time (or perhaps a little more time or in many cases much less time).

The bar is ridiculously low and virtually guarantees progress will not be promoted, at least not when you step on many toes for every single such monopoly granted (and software has many creators/inventors because of it's very low cost.. it's like writing math/fiction -- you create algorithms and you create virtual reality descriptions) and not whenever the costs to manufacture don't warrant monopoly granting (as is obviously the case for software, as demonstrated quick convincingly over and over by the Linux (open source) world because manufacturing software is so cheap these days).

Could you imagine if we rewarded the winner of a track and field race one time and then that person was the only one allowed to run future races or to set the terms and give themselves nice handicaps? Would that promote the quality of the sport? No, it would instead discourage many from competing. Perhaps the software patent proponents want that -- to discourage innovation and development so that in enough time it appears like only they do things. Yeah, consumers will really gain there.

These giants supporting patents have very low costs to manufacture software (unpatenable algorithms.. mental steps for information processing with the obvious post-solution step of displaying results and accepting more information from the user on a continual basis -- this was "novel" many decades ago, not today), yet want to get the 20 year monopolies enforced. Listen, volunteers (!!) are creating very good quality software. This is software that likely would infringe on some patents, while at the same time having many original pieces of innovation. That is the essence of software.

The very large companies that will come to get money from you (perhaps using a proxy litigation firm) have a pipeline of lawyers and average engineers cranking out "nonobvious" patents. They threaten to sue you out of business. That is unacceptable. Monopolies should never have been granted. And if software is not patentable, the USPTO should stop granting such patents.

OK, so software algorithms are abstract. The SCOTUS has already ruled on that. And most uses of software are obvious: you stick it into the computer and enjoy the results of all those calculations and information processing for which the computer/device was designed to accomplish. Can people patent calculations done by a calculator or its display? The way the machine calculates has been and is being patented, but the calculations you want it to perform is a total abstraction, and frankly, others should not deprive you of that liberty or try to "tax" you for such use, especially if the calculations to be performed (to effect the virtual realities dreamed up by some people) were largely original content. [And who can afford to read and understand the thousands of patents being granted continuously, allegedly, many of which can be called software patents or will be used to try and tax your use of a computer that way.]

What may happen to some groups is that those with the unfair and stifling monopoly patent papers will come to your door and demand ransom. I guess each will react their own way.

And one reason I use open source is because these are people that recognize the value to industry and to society of collaboration. I don't support software patent supporters or patron them if I can at all avoid it. If I get sued, I want to have the moral high ground and know I am part of a wide collaboration going on, not be helping a few of the greediest who want to mint money and stifle progress for their own greedy ends.

>> No company involved in the creation of original or proprietary software can afford to unilaterally refuse to get involved in the patent landscape, I'm afraid.

Well, no one is alone. The number of people writing (and using) open source software (and no patents.. but using licenses like the GPL) is of very significant size and likely growing at a healthy pace. You progress faster when you collaborate in creating virtual worlds and algorithms.

I am not a lawyer.

I don't support software patents because they would stifle and abridge a whole lot of people's Constitutional rights. They also bias greatly against most folks in favor of the highly ambitious (in the litigation sense) and likely already quite wealthy.

And note that it can be very costly and time consuming to prove prior art in court. This is why many people allow themselves (wrongfully) to be shaken down. We have to shed light on this and shame the people doing the shaking down. Share your experiences with a wide group and seek the collective wisdom, voting, boycotting, and shaming power in numbers. Sometimes those small firms are intimately connected with giants of industry that stand to lose a lot of business if we work as a group.

This comment includes the sorts of things I periodically share with my elected representatives. It's important to share this with them.


Copyright © 2025, Eklektix, Inc.
Comments and public postings are copyrighted by their creators.
Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds