Citizen Linus [LWN.net]

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 13, 2010 22:19 UTC (Mon) by yokem_55 (subscriber, #10498) [Link] (1 responses)

Linus did endorse Obama back in '08 on his blog. I have no idea how he feels about things now, or what party, if any (Oregon voters can register as unaffiliated) he would register with, but he did discuss his politics a bit in that blog post....

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 10:28 UTC (Tue) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link]

This blog post has some of Linus's thoughts about US politics.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 13, 2010 23:07 UTC (Mon) by ofranja (guest, #11084) [Link] (7 responses)

I find this a very interesting and rather amusing fact from US politics: either you are "A" or you are "B". You should not think about choosing a "C" or "D" - and if you dare to do so, you are not even considered in standard polling.

When I think about this, my concept of neutrality and unbiased media coverage gets very twisted. But hey, that's the land of freedom and truth, so they must be doing it right. :-)

This is natural selection...

Posted Sep 14, 2010 7:34 UTC (Tue) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link] (5 responses)

"The winner takes all" model naturally leads to duopoly. If you choose "A" or "B" you hope to change something next term - this is US politics. When you choose "C" you are showing your POV but have no real hope to change anything, so that's not politics, that's PR.

This is natural selection...

Posted Sep 14, 2010 8:51 UTC (Tue) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link] (2 responses)

In other countries alliances are made when nobody has a majority. In those countries voting C or D makes much more sense.

This is natural selection...

Posted Sep 14, 2010 10:13 UTC (Tue) by klbrun (subscriber, #45083) [Link]

The last time someone in US government had made this suggestion on the record was Lani Guinere in the Clinton administration, and she was hounded out of office as a threat to democracy.

This is natural selection...

Posted Sep 14, 2010 14:52 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

That's not working so well up here in Canada. We have a minority government in theory, but the governing party is so good at keeping the opposition in disarray that it might as well have a majority. :(

This is natural selection...

Posted Sep 14, 2010 10:21 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

That's what we thought in the UK until this most recent election. Coalition government, what a strange thing.

This is natural selection...

Posted Sep 14, 2010 19:43 UTC (Tue) by bgmarete (guest, #47484) [Link]

Here in Kenya, a first coalition probably saved the country from completely igniting after the disputed elections of 2007. The constitution had to be changed to allow it.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 23, 2010 19:14 UTC (Thu) by pjones (subscriber, #31722) [Link]

There's a name for the reason this happens - Duverger's Law.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 13, 2010 23:07 UTC (Mon) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link] (47 responses)

The fact of him willfully pledging allegiance to the by far most oppressive state on this planet (compared to most US citizens he actually has a choice) is a matter of non-trivial moral and symbolic significance -- by crossing that border, he lends implicit support to the state in general, and invariably to the history of its recent decisions and developments.

Your suggestion (which I take literally), that his miniscule voting power can somehow outweigh that implicit support -- I think it's plain ridiculous.

The only way I see he could undo the damage, is to vocally oppose the status quo.

However, from my observations Linus does not seem like a political person. Which makes it a saddening paradox.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 13, 2010 23:32 UTC (Mon) by DOT (subscriber, #58786) [Link] (3 responses)

The guy is a pragmatist. None of that political crap. He probably became a citizen for the money.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 10:22 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

Or... perhaps... because he has lived there for years and has children born there? You certainly wouldn't become a US citizen for the *money*, given what the IRS does tax-wise should you ever decide to live anywhere else (think 'double taxation').

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 16, 2010 2:57 UTC (Thu) by thedevil (guest, #32913) [Link]

AFAIK that only applies for income over 75K or so. (I was in that situation for a couple of years and I owed no US taxes.) So if your needs are modest it's not necessarily a showstopper.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 17, 2010 17:08 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

What money is there in being a US citizen? As opposed to being a US permanent resident, which is what Linus was before.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 13, 2010 23:54 UTC (Mon) by nicooo (guest, #69134) [Link]

Wouldn't living there for more than a decade be of much more (non-symbolic) significance?

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 0:23 UTC (Tue) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] (19 responses)

The "by far most oppressive state on this planet"? Good grief. You must have a pretty bizarre view of the rest of the world, or have some equally bizarre understanding of "oppressive".

The US sure isn't perfect, but hyperbole like yours is just silly and taints real complaints.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 0:39 UTC (Tue) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link] (9 responses)

If you eat a steady diet of propaganda, you'll begin to believe it at some point. Doubly if it contains a nice chunk of truth down in there, like this one.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 2:28 UTC (Tue) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] (8 responses)

Do you seriously think the US is more oppressive than the tinpot dictators in Africa, or most middle East Arab countries, or China, or Russia, or the remnants of the Soviet Empire, or Burma ... I'd really like to see you justify this "by far the most oppressive" comparison.

Like I said, hyperbole just taints any kernel (there! back on topic :-) of truth in your argument. There is plenty wrong, but it pales in comparison to the other oppressive nations around the world. If oppressive governments really do worry you, you ought to present the best argument possible, not the silliest.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 4:59 UTC (Tue) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link] (1 responses)

I guess my post is a Rorschach test.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 10:49 UTC (Tue) by tonyblackwell (guest, #43641) [Link]

I agree, fascinating to read all the ink-blot interpretations here. Just as well we have scope for a pluralist society, though some of the strongly expressed views remind me more of a proprietary closed-set rather than open-source cooperative community...

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 5:56 UTC (Tue) by bgmarete (guest, #47484) [Link] (5 responses)

You need to brush up on some elementary history and current affairs. Pick any one of those tinpot dictators in Africa, the middle east or Latin America and the United States is almost certain to be their best supporter and friend and supplies of arms e.t.c. This is true even today in many places.

What deepfire said is really a plain fact. One has to have been `educated' in the American system or something very close to it to honestly deny it.

Furthermore, the United States' historical willingness to support or abate mass oppression, both domestic and foreign, is made globally dangerous by its global reach. A typical tinpot dictator can only get hold of so many people.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 10:25 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (4 responses)

You need to brush up on some elementary history and current affairs. The US, a supporter of Myanmar? Of North Korea? Of Iran? It went to *war* with them.

You might as well blame the UK, half the nasty tinpot states are either ex-UK colonial possessions or the result of bad line-drawing in the departure phase (and we tried to end our empire *neatly*, god only knows what a mess we'd have made if we'd fallen apart unwillingly like most empires do).

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 12:34 UTC (Tue) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link] (2 responses)

Here in the Low Lands, from where we watch the world with a slight sense of pity, we actually consider the US to be one of those nasty tinpot states.

We regret ever having given up on New Amsterdam. We may want it back, so we can enforce world peace by requiring our citizens to wear wooden shoes at all times, except indoors. This should drastically reduce the desire to go run around in the desert with heavy artillery.

We will proceed to kindly ask the citizens of New New Amsterdam to spend a certain amount of time per day watching tulips grow, or, if they prefer this, windmills turn. Offenders will be supplied with hallucinatory sedatives. This should suppress even the slightest inclination for going on missions to spread sociopolitical views that will later be found somewhat lacking in substance and coherence, to random foreign nations sitting on large quantities of materials possessing shiny or oily qualities.

We will also require that citizens drop the affected, nasal tone and start getting used to grunting. We feel that the sensation of a properly pronounced 'g' helps improve the quality of our communication by keeping it to a minimum. And frankly, it is getting on our nerves.

Lastly, we would like to stress the importance of a decent paper atlas for looking up places such as "Myanmar" so as to prevent the Google Maps induced class of mistakes that lands unsuspecting citizens in the Mohawk River rather than Amsterdam, Holland.

We recognize that the local powers may not be immediately favourable to our intentions without further encouragement, so as soon as we have hoisted the sails, we will again raid the Medway to get rid of those pesky Britons.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 14:24 UTC (Tue) by michel (subscriber, #10186) [Link]

Dat typisch holland's vingertje...

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 15, 2010 15:42 UTC (Wed) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

What Britons? The anglo-saxons welshed on them long ago!

Cheers,
Wol

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 19:56 UTC (Tue) by bgmarete (guest, #47484) [Link]

In the neighbourhood of Iran, there is Iraq at the height of its powers and currently Egypt and Saudi Arabia. See, for example, the latest arms deal with the latter. In the neighborhood of North Korea, there is Indonesia and even South Korea itself which until recently was not a democracy. In the neighborhood of Myanmar, there is present day Pakistan. All have the US as their best friend and arms supplier. And these are just the most benign. There are terrible horror stories from Africa and Latin America.

Regarding the UK, we in the commonwealth know them well. Let's not start :-)

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 2:20 UTC (Tue) by MisterIO (guest, #36192) [Link] (8 responses)

I obviously don't consider the US the "by far most oppressive state on this planet"(it's not even close to that), but it's definitely a moralistic and conservative country. Freedom of speech is a joke. You're free to express yourself as long as what you say(and write or draw) is not obscene(which basically means that you can be censored on almost everything almost completely arbitrarily depending on how the common perception of obscenity changes over time). It's also one of the countries which execute more people (second only to China) and I don't even want to start talking about those states in the US where it's possible to execute even minors! Another thing that I find grotesque is that I read that some schools were considering teaching the crationist theory!

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 3:33 UTC (Tue) by nicooo (guest, #69134) [Link] (5 responses)

> It's also one of the countries which execute more people (second only to China)

You have to consider the size of the population. Though it's still pretty bad in some states, specially Texas.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 16:02 UTC (Tue) by shmget (guest, #58347) [Link] (4 responses)

Death Penalty Stats for 2008 (source Amnesty International)

Country Executions
CHINA 1718+
IRAN 346+
SAUDI ARABIA 102+
USA 37
PAKISTAN 36+
IRAQ 34+
VIET NAM 19+
AFGHANISTAN 17+
NORTH KOREA 15+
JAPAN 15
YEMEN 13+
INDONESIA 10
LIBYA 8+
BANGLADESH 5
BELARUS 4
EGYPT 2+
MALAYSIA 1+
MONGOLIA 1+
SINGAPORE 1+
SUDAN 1+
SYRIA 1+
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES 1+
BAHRAIN 1
BOTSWANA 1
SAINT KITTS AND NEVIS 1
Rest of the World : 0

But the point in not the numbers, but the company the US keep.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 16:16 UTC (Tue) by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946) [Link] (1 responses)

I don't see anyone saying Japan is as bad as North Korea though.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 17:01 UTC (Tue) by MisterIO (guest, #36192) [Link]

That's because Japan doesn't pretend to be the leader of the free world.
That said, Japan _is_ better than North Corea, just like are most countries of the rest of the world, USA included.(not sure I wrote this in good english)

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 17:11 UTC (Tue) by MisterIO (guest, #36192) [Link]

You're right, sorry for the wrong data:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 15, 2010 8:11 UTC (Wed) by lacostej (guest, #2760) [Link]

in the US, executions where on hold for a part of 2007 and 2008. So 2006 and 2009 are more relevant numbers:

2009: 52
2008: 37
2007: 42
2006: 53

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-united-states-...

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 18:27 UTC (Tue) by aleXXX (subscriber, #2742) [Link] (1 responses)

> I obviously don't consider the US the "by far most oppressive state on
> this planet"(it's not even close to that), but it's definitely a
> moralistic and conservative country.
...
> It's also one of the countries which execute more people (second only
> to China) and I don't even want to start talking about those states in
> the US where it's possible to execute even minors!

Then move to New York or Massachusetts, there capital punishment is declared to be unconstitutional :-)
So, this is a decision of the state, not of the country US.

Beside that, New York is a beautiful state :-)

Alex

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 16, 2010 3:23 UTC (Thu) by nevets (subscriber, #11875) [Link]

It is a beautiful state, if you don't mind a little snow. :-)

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 5:08 UTC (Tue) by xav (guest, #18536) [Link] (6 responses)

While I agree the title should say ´US citizen´, because as-is it´s insulting to Finnish citizenship, your view of USA looks at least way exagerated.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 10:22 UTC (Tue) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link] (3 responses)

I also found the headline very poor. Equating "Citizen" with "US Citizen" is a very poor word choice for a website with an international audience.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 11:29 UTC (Tue) by bluss (guest, #47454) [Link] (1 responses)

Does it matter where he's a citizen? In the subject email, he's engaging in citizen activity in his "new" country (registering to vote); it literally describes Linus acting as a citizen.

That said, it seems he's buying stocks in a heavily indebted company.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 12:04 UTC (Tue) by fb (guest, #53265) [Link]

It matters because the news behind "Citizen Linus" doesn't seem to be about Linus getting a voting registration but about the fact that he "let slip" he is now a US citizen.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 16:33 UTC (Tue) by alankila (guest, #47141) [Link]

Umm... Citizen Kane?

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 11:15 UTC (Tue) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link] (1 responses)

I suspect the title was supposed to echo the title of the movie _Citizen_Kane_ and thus be amusing.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 17, 2010 17:24 UTC (Fri) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

More like it was supposed to echo whatever the title of Citizen Kane echoes. "Citizen" as a person's title comes from somewhere, and I don't think the author of Citizen Kane made it up.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 14:35 UTC (Tue) by jackb (guest, #41909) [Link] (5 responses)

I'll agree with you that the US has become a de facto police state, but it's by no means the most oppressive state on this planet (yet).

Not to say that there's anything good about our situation but at least we we haven't had our freedom to criticize removed via hate crime laws nor do we have trash police going through everyone's garbage. We're also lacking the death penalty for apostasy that some other more oppressive states have.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 19:40 UTC (Tue) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link] (4 responses)

You are not the first in this thread to choose a misguided, uselessly narrow interpretation of the notion of "oppressive state".

Contrary to whatever U.S. citizens might think[1], the rest of the world is much more concerned with its extraborder affairs.

1. If it sounds as an insult, this is only because it is so close to being true, at least judging by statements in the thread.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 19:45 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (3 responses)

And this is not the first time you've made your point. This discussion is off-topic for LWN, can we please stop it here?

Thanks.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 22:34 UTC (Tue) by bgmarete (guest, #47484) [Link] (2 responses)

I can hardly imagine that there can be any meaningful Linux Kernel related - or other technical - comment to such such a story. You posted the story.

Citizenship is an inherently political issue. And in an international forum, the politics will be of an international nature, of course :-)

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 22:42 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (1 responses)

In fact, I debated posting the story for a fair while before deciding that it would be of interest. And it has clearly been of interest. That said, I still don't think that means I necessarily set us up for an extended discussion on the merits of various national governments, death penalty rates, etc. Such things happen, and I let it run for a fair while before I said anything; now I'm simply suggesting that we've done enough.

Are you disagreeing with that?

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 16, 2010 19:18 UTC (Thu) by bgmarete (guest, #47484) [Link]

Not too much respected Corbet :-) A little politics once in a while never hurt, even in a nominally technical forum.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 14:56 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (5 responses)

The fact of him willfully pledging allegiance to the by far most oppressive state on this planet...

What universe are you living in? Yes, there are many, many things I don't like about the US government or US policies. But come on! It's in a whole different league compared to the really nasty countries like Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Iran, etc.

The US, for all of its warts, is still a free country. It tends to oppress people outside the US, but is relatively decent to its citizens.

You can see this in the free market of migration. Lots of people emigrate from repressive countries to the US. Very few people leave the US for China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. unless it's for family reasons.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 17:17 UTC (Tue) by Doogie (guest, #59626) [Link] (4 responses)

It's in a whole different league compared to the really nasty countries like Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Iran, etc.

How exactly do you know this? If you are like most people who "know" these countries are "evil", then you learned it through the mainstream press who uncritically report on what politicians and talking heads say. The same press that uncritically reported Saddam Hussein was a direct and immediate threat to the USA.

This is not to say that those are great places to live, but the people who do live there are not inherently evil, they are most likely simply undereducated and misinformed, something that we in the "Civilized West" are increasingly falling for as well.

The world is not black and white, and our treatment of issues around human rights and democracy need to reflect that fact. The same thing needs to be understood by people who knee-jerk anti-American sentiment as well.

It tends to oppress people outside the US...

LOL, understatement!

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 17:36 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (3 responses)

How exactly do you know this?

Because I read and keep myself informed and don't block outside information for ideological reasons. Let's take Saudi Arabia, for instance. There is nothing like the abuses recorded at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_saudi_arabia in the United States. (I'll go out on a limb here and guess that you're a man, because any woman would know for sure that Saudi Arabia is one of the worst places in the world.)

Now look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_north_korea. Do you claim that "Torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, public executions, extra judicial and arbitrary detention, the absence of due process and the rule of law, imposition of the death penalty for political reasons, the existence of a large number of prison camps and the extensive use of forced labour" are problems in the United States?

This is not to say that those are great places to live, but the people who do live there are not inherently evil

I never said the people were inherently evil. But an Islamic theocracy as in Saudi Arabia is inherently evil. And totalitarian communism as in North Korea is inherently evil. On the other hand, the principles of freedom and democracy upon which the United States was founded are inherently good even if you think the US government has not done a good job living up to those principles.

To put it another way: Saudi Arabia and North Korea have inherently evil systems of government that cannot be made good unless the systems are completely overhauled. The United States has an inherently good system of government that can (alas) be corrupted by bad people.

There's no question that the United States is a far better place to live than most other countries on Earth. The US ranks decently on the press freedom index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index) and the freedom house list (http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/fiw08launch/FIW08Tables.pdf)

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 17:47 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (2 responses)

This discussion has been surprisingly calm, polite, and reasoned, given the subject matter. But it is somewhat off-topic for LWN. Maybe we could all agree that the points have been made and we go back to our usual business of flaming distributors? :)

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 15, 2010 19:37 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link] (1 responses)

"Canonical has the worst government on Earth."

"No, Redhat tortures more code."

"But Canonical's software imprisonment record is appalling."

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 15, 2010 19:43 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

But how can you even think to compare any of that with the death penalty applied to systemd in F14? Clearly Fedora is by far the most repressive of them all, and anybody who installs it is clearly endorsing that evil.

:)

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 14, 2010 20:58 UTC (Tue) by sooner (guest, #70116) [Link] (2 responses)

Welcome to America, Mr. Torvalds. A place where we thank our lucky stars (or what ever higher power you believe in) for being here. Most of the rest of the world wishes they were here. Come legally and you are all welcome. Just don't expect a reverse flow....we know how lucky we are.

USA most popular country?

Posted Sep 16, 2010 13:53 UTC (Thu) by morhippo (guest, #334) [Link]

I am glad that Linus likes the country he chose to live in, but I think the idea that "most of the rest of the world" wants to live in the USA is a typical self-deception of US Americans. I am quite sure that almost all of the first world people and many of the others rather like the place they live at.

Just because most US Americans have not been outside of their own (or god's own?) country and are being fed patriotic news and propaganda all the time does not make the US the most popular country outside of the USA. If you look at the reactions in this international news site, you may notice that many people have a very critical view of the USA and prefer to live elsewhere.

Citizen Linus

Posted Sep 21, 2010 12:35 UTC (Tue) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link]

>Welcome to America, Mr. Torvalds. A place where we thank our lucky stars (or what ever higher power you believe in) for being here. Most of the rest of the world wishes they were here. Come legally and you are all welcome. Just don't expect a reverse flow....we know how lucky we are.

*plonk*