Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
There is another name for this which is even more pejorative, Crippleware. Deliberately hobbled software. And that's what I think gets people riled up — if you're releasing something as free software, then there should at least be the pretence that you are giving the community the opportunity to fend for itself — even if that is by providing an "unofficial" git tree where the community can code up GPL features competing with your commercial offering, or a nice forum for people to share templates, themes and extensions and fend for themselves. But what gets people riled is hearing a company call themselves "an Open Source company" when most of the users of their "open source" product do not have software freedom. It's disingenuous, and it is indeed brand dilution."
Posted Jul 19, 2010 23:52 UTC (Mon)
by SEJeff (guest, #51588)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Jul 19, 2010 23:57 UTC (Mon)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2010 14:00 UTC (Tue)
by frobert (guest, #62734)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2010 16:19 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Jul 20, 2010 18:39 UTC (Tue)
by SEJeff (guest, #51588)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 21, 2010 6:25 UTC (Wed)
by frobert (guest, #62734)
[Link]
Posted Jul 20, 2010 9:28 UTC (Tue)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
syslog-ng's case is *much* more like what Artifex used to do with ghostscript.
Posted Aug 8, 2010 11:22 UTC (Sun)
by bazsi (guest, #63084)
[Link]
First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm biased on the syslog-ng case, but still wanted to express my opinion here. I'm biased as I'm the primary author of syslog-ng.
I think syslog-ng is a completely different case from the one described by Neary. The GPL version is not crippleware, it was never published for marketing purposes only and for the majority of syslog-ng's existence only the Open Source stuff existed. The Premium Edition is only about 3 years old and syslog-ng started in 1998.
We never removed features from the OSE version, the Premium Edition only included _additional_ features, and a lot of those are already available in the OSE.
Some examples:
In the other direction, we usually receive bugfixes and it is a pure technical reason that we used to require copyright assignment: I wanted to keep the two branches as close as possible (which if not done is the reason #1 why Open Core products become crippleware fast). _And_ since we heavily invested in automatic testing and our customers report bugs directly to us, we fix way more bugs in the OSE version than the community.
But anyway, I didn't think that the dual license model was so problematic at the time we made this decision 3 years ago. Our efforts have never been "Rotten to the Open Core". If you don't believe that, check out the git repository or read the mailing list archive and see it yourself.
And this whole mess is the past, OSE 3.2 has been relicensed, and it is true that we're going to publish non-free plugins, but anyone else is welcome to join and do the same.
Posted Jul 20, 2010 0:21 UTC (Tue)
by ncm (guest, #165)
[Link] (8 responses)
Their paying customers might reasonably feel misled. Surely that's a matter between them and their customers. A company that sets itself up as adversary to its own customers is not long a threat to anyone.
Posted Jul 20, 2010 0:33 UTC (Tue)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (7 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2010 5:13 UTC (Tue)
by ncm (guest, #165)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2010 13:29 UTC (Tue)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2010 14:28 UTC (Tue)
by Zack (guest, #37335)
[Link] (3 responses)
I doubt that. I suspect the often blamed double meaning of the word "Free" would work against that.
With the term "Free Software" you cannot skip on explaining why "Free" doesn't mean no cost, especially in a context where you would try to maximise profits by distorting its meaning. But once you explain what it doesn't mean, you can't just leave it dangling there; you'd have to give an explanation what it *does* mean. It's probably possible to distort the meaning there, but all in all the process to distort would be more laborious and error prone and as such less profitable.
Posted Jul 20, 2010 14:32 UTC (Tue)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
Posted Jul 21, 2010 5:24 UTC (Wed)
by jmalcolm (subscriber, #8876)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 21, 2010 11:09 UTC (Wed)
by Zack (guest, #37335)
[Link]
Because without any explanation, "free software" would simply default to software at no cost for most people, as it is today. If a company wanted to co-opt the libre meaning "Free Software" for nefarious purposes, they would have to at least explain how free has two meanings, and that the gratis one isn't the one they refer to by "free".
If a company would put out a shareware version as free software, it would simply mean that, a version of the software at no cost; they wouldn't even be lying.
Please note that I don't think open-source is a term not worth saving or guarding, nor do I suggest it should be dropped wholse-sale in favour of Free Software. I am responding to the statement that the term "free software" would inevitably have suffered from the same problems as the term open-source, and that to believe otherwise amounts to being naive.
Posted Jul 20, 2010 6:03 UTC (Tue)
by epa (subscriber, #39769)
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Posted Jul 20, 2010 2:19 UTC (Tue)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
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Posted Jul 20, 2010 4:27 UTC (Tue)
by butlerm (subscriber, #13312)
[Link] (2 responses)
Otherwise the company is essentially forking the code base and making a "hand-me-down", flaky version for the outside world. If the open version of the core package isn't genuinely useful, stable, and up-to-date as a standalone software package, the claim to "open core" is a sham. Why would any outside developer want to contribute to a project like that?
And if the "open" core doesn't actually share the same source base as the "proprietary" core, the claim to "open core" is arguably fraudulent, because the core of the proprietary version isn't actually open at all.
Posted Jul 20, 2010 4:39 UTC (Tue)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 20, 2010 6:16 UTC (Tue)
by butlerm (subscriber, #13312)
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Personally, I am skeptical of the merit of any substantial open source software project that multiple companies can't each participate in and add value to in their own way. At best the open source character of a single company dominated project (like MySQL) is as an insurance policy against the day when the project management by that company becomes intolerable or fails entirely. Otherwise it seems more like a PR move with marginal side benefits than a game changer for the software industry.
Posted Jul 20, 2010 9:12 UTC (Tue)
by aristedes (guest, #35729)
[Link] (4 responses)
We've long thought about the idea of open sourcing the core application, but even under GPL, we'd have to remove a great deal of functionality from the application or risk having no customers at all who'd need pay us for our services or extra features. Yes, I know we could go for a pure services model (support contracts, etc like RedHat) but our customer target would not support that arrangement (in my opinion).
I understand why you'd go for an approach of pulling out some parts of a product, release it as open source and hope to attract a community (maybe even for all the right open source reasons). But still want to hold something back to create a market for your company to survive on. Not every software product suits a pure 'support services' model of open source.
I don't understand the antagonism towards companies that are trying this approach. They may well understand the open source 'way' but are also looking for an approach to earn a living which isn't always easy if your customers grow to expect 'open source' == 'inexpensive'. I want to give our customers freedom to extend our product, customise it into their business and not be locked in artificially (that is, I want them to stay because the product is good not because of a contract or because they can't get their data out). But I also want to stay in business and pay the developers who make all this neat stuff.
I haven't open sourced our product mainly because I don't have the resources to support a fork. But the idea is an attractive one if I did.
Ari Maniatis
Posted Jul 20, 2010 9:40 UTC (Tue)
by gevaerts (subscriber, #21521)
[Link]
- The "GPL" version as it's often called (it's usually GPL) is marketed as some sort of demo. This on its own will create resentment, and will stop many people from even considering looking at your software. Selling additional propriteray components is fine, (subtly) trying to imply that the GPL version is somehow inferior is insulting to the people who worked to make the GPL ecosystem great.
- What happens to outside contributions? Will you refuse a patch because it reimplements a proprietary feature? If so, prepare for some bad feelings.
- If these companies accept outside contributions at all, they usually require some sort of copyright assignment or unlimited rights to use the contributions in the proprietary version. The outside contributor often does *not* receive the right to also sell a proprietary version. This is fundamentally asymmetrical, and enough reason for many people (including myself) to not work on this software. (aside: I don't necessarily *want* to release my own proprietary version, I just want equal rights for equal effort. If you don't expect (at least) equal effort from the community in the long term, why do you even want this community?). Using a BSD style license would solve this of course, but one gets the feeling that this was a deliberate choice.
Posted Jul 20, 2010 10:44 UTC (Tue)
by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501)
[Link] (1 responses)
Will the users of the software be indeed independent of you?
If you retain vendor lock-in, then maybe it is a bit misleading to call the resulting product "Free Software / Open Source". "Inexpensive" is an expected by-product of the lack of vendor lock-in (in most cases), and not the other way around.
Posted Jul 22, 2010 11:50 UTC (Thu)
by mjthayer (guest, #39183)
[Link]
That is rather hard to reconcile with producing software when you don't expect to get back your costs by charging for service. If the only way you have of making money from it is by selling licences, then vendor independance is pretty fatal for you (and may not help the user in the long term if no one is paying for maintainance). Something like the Qt promise, like that if you stop maintaining the software then it will all be released as GPL or whatever, might provide a good middle ground though.
Out of interest, do you know of many non-niche companies that are fully FLOSS and make a profit? Or pieces of software for that matter?
Posted Jul 20, 2010 17:21 UTC (Tue)
by iabervon (subscriber, #722)
[Link]
The issue is that a lot of companies seem to be claiming an open core when they don't have a division between a core and non-core in the first place, but rather have a single project with more and less functionality in branches. This puts the maintainer in a conflict of interest, rather than cooperating on one front while competing on a different front. It only makes sense to make something open source when you and the community would both be motivated to make the part you share as complete as possible within the scope of that part.
Posted Jul 21, 2010 8:12 UTC (Wed)
by dmk (guest, #50141)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Jul 21, 2010 20:18 UTC (Wed)
by hingo (guest, #14792)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Jul 22, 2010 5:39 UTC (Thu)
by dmk (guest, #50141)
[Link]
Posted Jul 21, 2010 8:44 UTC (Wed)
by job (guest, #670)
[Link] (7 responses)
Why in the world are they still going on about "open cores" as another word for open-source-as-crippleware? They haven't hijacked the term yet, and I don't they ever will. It would be downright nasty to the people who have invested time and money in Open Cores.
There are perfectly good other terms or just make up a new one ("open crippleware" anyone? or "open demo"?). I keep misreading those headlines every time they pop up and aren't actually about open hardware.
Posted Jul 21, 2010 21:55 UTC (Wed)
by hingo (guest, #14792)
[Link] (6 responses)
Posted Jul 25, 2010 6:48 UTC (Sun)
by job (guest, #670)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Jul 25, 2010 12:24 UTC (Sun)
by hingo (guest, #14792)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Jul 31, 2010 20:56 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Aug 1, 2010 11:32 UTC (Sun)
by hingo (guest, #14792)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Aug 8, 2010 13:13 UTC (Sun)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
Don't assume that all variability is due to some sort of evil personalization. Some of it is an efficiency hack.
Posted Aug 11, 2010 7:31 UTC (Wed)
by job (guest, #670)
[Link]
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Seems they have also realized this and going for an LGPL+GPL combo license: http://bazsi.blogs.balabit.com/2010/07/syslog-ng-contributions-redefined.html.
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
* TLS support (became available in 3.0, almost 2 years ago)
* SQL destination (became available in 2.1, 2.5 years ago)
* performance improvements (3.0)
* etc.
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Whereas a loosely knit community of many individuals has no problem explaining the two different meanings over and over again to different people (using the speech not beer catch-phrase, which is quite humourous the first time a person hears it, and catches their interest), for a commercial company it would require a real expense to make a differentiation between gratis and libre. What's more is that they need to establish that first and from there on distort the term "Free Software" for their own purposes, but by that time they have already educated their customer, and it would be a lot harder to mislead them.
The term "open source" is far more monetizeable, which I think is one of the reasons it was adopted quickly, but for the same reason it is unfortunately also more vulnerable to corruption.
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
I am not sure why you think companies would corrupt the "Free Software" brand by explaining lots of things. Rather, I would expect them just to run with the common expectation of what "free" would mean from a corporation. That is, they would just say that they have a "free" community version and a commercial "enterprise" version without saying anything about "libre".
The corruption would come when companies would offer "free" software for which the source is not available and talk about it as part of the "Free Software" trend. This would significantly dilute the brand of the political movement that is more interested in libre than in no cost.
We see this already and "Free Software" is a much less successful brand than "Open Source" outside of the community of people that care about the difference (ie. most of the world).
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
If they would want to use that to subvert the libre meaning, they would have to position it as "free, but not just as in no-cost", leaving open the question "but then free as in what as well ?"
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Neary: Rotten to the (Open) Core?
Earning money
Earning money
Earning money
Earning money
Earning money
"the open core debate"
I think I'm partly responsible, so for once a link to my personal blog may be a legitimate way to answer your question. If you read from this post onward:
http://openlife.cc/blogs/2010/june/open-core-not-open-source ...and also take into account links to other blogs (the interview of MÃ¥rten Mickos, Matthew Asslett's blog, SugarCRM, etc...), then you'd be pretty well up to speed.
"the open core debate"
"the open core debate"
"Open core" overloaded
"open core" seems to have been adopted by FOSS business people and analysts in 2008 and is quite established by today. I personally knew about "open cores" (and wrote about it in a book, even :-), but the term is in wide use now, what can you do.
"Open core" overloaded
FWIW, when I first heard about "Open Cores", I had no idea that a "core" referred to chip design. It's an easy mistake to make.
"Open core" overloaded
There is no absolute truth in Google anymore, the results are much more personalized than they once were. I get 6 search results for the business model term, 1 unrelated Java result and 3 for opencores.org.
"Open core" overloaded
If you want people to use some other term, why not contact those who use it. Personally, I think it is just too late.
"Open core" overloaded
"There is no standard google any more." 57 personalization signals. Ditto FB. @elipariser of moveon talks about "filter bubbles" at #pdf10
"Open core" overloaded
twitter.com/timoreilly
Since "job" is clearly active in open hardware, and I've been active in the open source related debate, I would still guess on personalization as that makes more sense than assuming that we got well personalized results just due to chance.
"Open core" overloaded
"Open core" overloaded