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Development project priorities

By Jake Edge
February 10, 2010

Development projects are often required to make hard decisions about where to apply their effort; developer and tester time is a scarce resource, so choices must be made. It is not uncommon that those choices will be unpopular with some, perhaps quite vocal, segment of the user community, but users need to recognize that prioritization has to occur. Free software projects, even those backed by foundations or corporations, are obviously not immune to the need for focus. A recent discussion about Mozilla dropping support for Mac OS X 10.4 shows that some users still don't quite understand the issue—especially when it is their platform that will be affected.

It all started with a post by Mozilla's Josh Aas about making a final decision on whether to support Mac OS X 10.4 ("Tiger") in the version of the Gecko rendering engine that will be the basis of the next Firefox release (3.7 or higher). He listed statistics of the number of Mac users that still use 10.4, which was released in 2005, and noted that there were significant hurdles to continuing to support that release in the codebase. Furthermore, he pointed out that there will be a roughly yearlong transition period:

The approximately 25% of our Mac OS X users still on 10.4 would continue to be supported by Firefox 3.6 until that product reaches end of service, which won't be until several months after the next major version of Firefox is delivered (built on Gecko 1.9.3) later this year. Past data shows that we do not lose appreciable market share when we stop supporting a Mac OS X version. We are often one of the last vendors to continue supporting older Mac OS X releases, and I suspect that by the time this becomes an issue Apple may themselves have stopped issuing security updates for Mac OS X 10.4.

But that didn't sit well with some Mac users. Phillip Jones argued against dropping support because it would require hardware and/or software upgrades—at a substantial monetary cost—for those who still use 10.4. He also claimed to be speaking for lots of others:

And I am not the only one. I just happen to be the only one to voice an opinion. Most just take what they are given and stew in the background.

Others chimed in to agree with Jones, but anecdotal stories about individuals who are unable to upgrade doesn't really help in the decision. Mozilla's Asa Dotzler points out the kind of information that would be useful:

Since this decision won't be made because a few users visiting this forum are still bound to 10.4, this kind of advocacy doesn't help much. If you can add more precise usage data to this discussion than what Josh offered in the initial post, please do. If you know of other kinds of data that represents large numbers of Mac or Firefox users that hasn't already been mentioned, please add that.

Dotzler continues by noting that the decision is not being made lightly, nor is it being made in a vacuum, but some kind of prioritization needs to take place:

I (and I'm sure others here) recognize that tens or even hundreds of thousands of users will be left behind in a year or so if we stop support for 10.4. We understand that. If we tried to support 100% of operating systems out there, the project would collapse.

That means we have to pick our target versions carefully. Do you have some suggestion about what that cut-off should be that goes further than "not the platform I'm on" ?

Many of those who are against the change are making a "not in my backyard" (NIMBY) argument, as Dotzler points out. Others believe that because Mozilla gets millions of dollars in revenue, it should plow some of that money into supporting 10.4. It is not a terribly reasonable argument, as organizations should be able to make their own decisions about staffing and such. It is also a bit ironic that folks claim that Mozilla should support them in ways that Apple will not.

The real problem stems from Apple's decision to only support 10.5 ("Leopard") on some PowerPC Macs, and to only support 10.6 ("Snow Leopard") on Intel Macs. In addition, Apple charges for each upgrade, which potentially leaves those who are financially strapped behind. It is not particularly fair to blame Mozilla for something that has its roots in Apple's upgrade strategy.

Those calling for Mozilla to go the extra mile for 10.4 are really asking for a "disproportionate investment", according to Mozilla's Boris Zbarsky. In addition, they haven't made a good case for why that should be: "No one has cited a good reason why 10.4 users matter more than 10.5 or 10.6 users or Windows or Linux users." There are technical reasons why support for 10.4 is hard, as Aas outlined at the start of the thread, so there needs to be a compelling reason to do it.

Allocating resources is a difficult problem sometimes, but one gets the sense that Mozilla developers are pretty convinced that 10.4 is not a good use of their efforts. Mozilla VP of Engineering Mike Shaver also points out that Apple seems to have left 10.4 behind:

What amount of resource should we divert from other areas, such that we can support a small-and-shrinking number of users on a trailing edge version of a deeply-minority platform from which we get decreasingly poor support from the OS vendor as it ages? (When we report even *security-related* bugs in older system libraries to Apple, we often get a pretty cold response. This may not be a problem that the WebKit or Safari teams face, but I can't really know for sure.)

It would be easy to write this off as a problem for folks that have chosen a proprietary operating system, but this same problem is regularly faced by those who run free systems. Projects frequently make decisions on their focus: distributions choose architectures to support, applications choose which features to implement or what desktop to support, and so on. Users need to find a way to make reasoned arguments about what they would like to see happen, while understanding that the project itself gets to make its own decisions. On the flipside, projects need to provide a means for users to give their input, hopefully in a constructive manner.

Advocacy—along with venting—in bug reports was another problem discussed in the thread. "Piling on" to bug reports and feature requests is a common reaction for users who are frustrated with the choices a project is making, as we saw last August for KDE. More recently, the addition of CNNIC to the Mozilla certificate store also had many impassioned users commenting on the bug, but without providing the kinds of information needed by the project to assist its decision making process.

Some kind of balance needs to be found, where users feel like their voice is being heard, without overwhelming the developers and project leaders who are trying to do their jobs. For free software projects, though, there is a potential solution that is not available for those using proprietary systems: the code is available if someone wants to put together a project to go a different direction. While some Apple users will never be able to run more recent versions of Mac OS on their hardware, they most certainly could put together a project to continue supporting Firefox on those older versions. It would be a lot of work, but that's a much better situation than for Mac OS where it would simply be impossible.



to post comments

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 11, 2010 6:46 UTC (Thu) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link] (14 responses)

Anyone who is so strapped for cash that they can't afford the $30-$50 OS X upgrade fee simply has no business owning a Mac! Apple is famous for charging $30 for a USB cable, $80 for a power adapter, and $100 for a DVI adapter... They are not not a company that caters to the cash poor!

Besides, if you install Linux on your Mac, all this drama goes away. Last year I installed Ubuntu on my PowerPC Mac Mini (the first Mac Mini that ever came out) and it worked great. Everything auto-detected and I was running the latest Firefox in 20 minutes. If you're short on cash, you really do owe it to yourself to go with the penguin.

> What amount of resource should we divert from other areas, such that we can support a small-and-shrinking number of users on a trailing edge version of a deeply-minority platform from which we get decreasingly poor support from the OS vendor as it ages?

That's very well said. It sounds like Mozilla is handling this issue well.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 11, 2010 9:34 UTC (Thu) by liljencrantz (guest, #28458) [Link] (2 responses)

Deciding which platforms Mozilla as an organization will spend significant amounts of money on should not be something we criticize them for. They have given something of great value to a huge number of people and never charged us as much as a dime. They owe us nothing. Anyone who disagrees with the direction they take the project can fork off.

I would think that the obvious solution for those OS X 10.4 users who run Firefox would be to write patches to support 10.4 themselves. If Mozilla refuses to accept such patches, I will agree that they are highly unreasonable.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 11, 2010 14:20 UTC (Thu) by felixfix (subscriber, #242) [Link] (1 responses)

The list of reasons why 10.4 support should be dropped is impressive to me. 10.4 requires older versions of code (gcc, java plugin, others listed in http://lwn.net/Articles/373818/), such that 10.4 support is not just a matter of some patches, but the tool chain itself. It looks to me like 10.4 support is actually holding back the dev process itself.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 13, 2010 3:40 UTC (Sat) by mikov (guest, #33179) [Link]

It simply appears that 10.4 would have to be maintained as a completely separate OS. So the toolchain and the patches should not be a problem. Whether the users of 10.4 can maintain such a branch is not clear; but in theory there is nothing preventing them from doing it.

This shows once again that most users really want to treat free software as if it was simply cheap commercial software. The huge philosophical difference in motivation, responsibility, customer relation, etc, between non-free and free does not enter into the picture. Users want to get the benefits of both commercial and free at the same time - can't blame them for trying :-)

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 11, 2010 9:52 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (2 responses)

> Anyone who is so strapped for cash that they can't afford the $30-$50 OS X upgrade fee simply has no business owning a Mac!

I have the money to upgrade but Apple is not selling any PowerPC operating system anymore. Not even an upgrade. Every PowerPC user is stuck with its current version.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 12, 2010 4:33 UTC (Fri) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

So every PowerPC user is stuck with the current version of Firefox too. Where's the problem?

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 17, 2010 9:30 UTC (Wed) by pointwood (guest, #2814) [Link]

Well, the PowerPC machines are becomming quite old and since Apple stopped supporting them, why should Mozilla do it?

As has been said: It's time to upgrade to new hardware, being an Apple/OS X user costs money, if you aren't prepared to pay the Apple tax, then you shouldn't by their stuff.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 11, 2010 10:37 UTC (Thu) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link] (4 responses)

I think the 'upgrade fee' is rather more than $30-$50 if you have a PowerPC machine running 10.4. Apple will no longer sell you the 10.5 upgrade; you have to buy it on Ebay. A quick check suggests the price is around $80 (and it is more in non-US markets). Obviously there are a limited number of 10.5 copies in circulation, so it may not even be possible for every PowerPC Mac user to upgrade.

Of course 'just run Linux' is the best answer, but in nearly twenty years of trying, there remain a small number of stubborn users who don't...

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 12, 2010 3:34 UTC (Fri) by amikins (guest, #451) [Link] (2 responses)

For my Intel iMac, it cost me over $100 in order to upgrade from 10.4 to 10.5, and that was well after Leopard was well established.

I put off that upgrade as long as possible, but it got to the point where I wasn't able to get basic work done on 10.4 due to Apple's abandonment of the platform.

I did attempt to move to Linux on this machine, on several occasions.. I'm not precisely sure why, but I repeatedly had trouble with overheating. The machine works fine running WinXP (through bootcamp) and with MacOS, but attempt to run Linux, and it warms itself to a hard lock.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 12, 2010 13:17 UTC (Fri) by buchanmilne (guest, #42315) [Link]

I'm not precisely sure why, but I repeatedly had trouble with overheating.

Did you file a bug? If this is the only obstacle to using Linux on it, that should be a lot easier to fix than the lack of support a vendor provides for their proprietary operating system for their custom hardware they sold you.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 12, 2010 17:48 UTC (Fri) by Cato (guest, #7643) [Link]

Overheating can be a problem with Windows PCs that are switched to Linux, as well. One theory is that Linux drives the system harder resulting more heat output. A very simple solution for most OSes is to find some fan control software that uses temperature sensors to control fan speed, or control the clock speed using similar software.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 19, 2010 3:12 UTC (Fri) by jrincayc (guest, #29129) [Link]

If you want the older version try calling the apple store. I called once and they would still sell me the older version by phone when I explained what hardware I had.

Though for older hardware, it might be worth considering running linux (for even older hardware try Netbsd).

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 17, 2010 9:27 UTC (Wed) by pointwood (guest, #2814) [Link] (2 responses)

Totally agree!

People should complain to Apple before they start complaining about free software.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 18, 2010 20:02 UTC (Thu) by Pc5Y9sbv (guest, #41328) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes, or rather the free software response to Apple abandoning a hardware platform should be to allow a free OS like Linux to run on it. Then all the apps like Firefox can build using the Linux build chain.

Addressing the hardware issues, like overheating mentioned above, would be more fruitful in this case.

But if these unfortunate Apple users are going to cling to their abandoned proprietary OS release and then try to preach OSS principles to get Firefox support, they're just being hypocrites.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 25, 2010 22:38 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

Apple did not abandon 10.4. They are still releasing security updates for 10.4. It's only PowerPC that they left in the dust.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 11, 2010 9:56 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

People interested in the technical reasons why VLC dropped 10.4 can start reading here for instance:

http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2009-Sept...

Free systems NOT usually the same

Posted Feb 11, 2010 19:46 UTC (Thu) by dwheeler (guest, #1216) [Link]

> It would be easy to write this off as a problem for folks that have chosen a proprietary operating system, but this same problem is regularly faced by those who run free systems.

In principle, that is true, but in practice, that is usually NOT true.

In most cases, upgrading a Free system is zero or very low cost. Upgrading an Apple system is quite expensive. Apple has a right to do this, but this basically offloads developments costs to other software developers (including Free projects).... and those other projects have a right to choose to not bear those costs.

It's unfortunate. I often run older systems, and I definitely like to see developers support them. Where it's reasonable, I think they should. But at some point, it's not worth it.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 19, 2010 11:39 UTC (Fri) by robbe (guest, #16131) [Link]

It helps to bear in mind that Linux also qualifies as a "deeply-minority
platform". So if Mozilla someday abandons, say, support for an old
version of X, some of us who are unable to upgrade may be in the same
boat.

Of course all the points about forking, using another browser, doing the
painful OS upgrade, etc apply.

Development project priorities

Posted Feb 19, 2010 15:13 UTC (Fri) by abadidea (guest, #62082) [Link]

I'm definitely still in the 10.4 boat because I am a student and since when do students have money? (I bought the laptop myself almost four years ago with all my high school graduation money.) "Why aren't you using Linux" isn't a valid argument, because I already have... let's see... one, two, three, four machines running Linux. Clearly I'm using OSX because I want to. Also, I never saw any compelling reason to buy the upgrades. 10.4 has worked perfectly for me, and I didn't see any features in the newer versions that I cared about, so it was effectively an upgrade tax from my point of view.

To be fair, however, I'm planning on buying a new Apple machine in several months when I have a "real job." I understand that 10.4 is a few versions out and Apple doesn't have the same track record for backwards compatibility as Microsoft (yes, MS kicks *** in that respect, no matter what else you say about them).


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