Notes from the LF End User Summit
The End User Summit draws a different crowd than any other event. Well-known Linux developers are present, certainly, but they do not form the majority of the crowd; they are, instead, strongly outnumbered by representatives of banks, insurance companies, and financial firms. Old conference T-shirts are far outnumbered by suits and ties in this crowd. The End User Summit, in other words, caters to enterprise distribution customers and others who are using Linux in high-stakes situations - even a major stock exchange which has based its operation on Gentoo. It makes for an interesting combination of people and a unique set of conversations.
One speaker was Brian Clark from the New York Stock Exchange. NYSE's systems run under high pressure and tight constraints. They process some three billion transactions per day - more than Google does - and those transactions need to execute in less than one millisecond. Customers can switch to competing exchanges instantly and for almost no cost, so if NYSE's systems are not performing, its customers will vanish. A typical trading day involves the processing of 1.5TB of data; some 8 petabytes of data are kept online. And this whole operation runs on Linux.
NYSE is highly concerned with software quality and security; they are subject to thousands of attacks every day. Downtime is to be limited to 90 seconds per year. All told, Linux has worked very well in this setting. NYSE had some requests, though, including the increasingly common desire for a way to move everything except a specific application off of a given core. Brian requested a way to lock a process's memory in place - a functionality which mlock() would appear to have provided for many years. He would also like a non-disruptive way to measure latencies, especially in the network stack.
In the end, he says, NYSE likes Linux because of the community which stands behind it - an interesting position given NYSE's rather low profile in that community. One place where it was suggested NYSE could help would be to advise the developers on the best placement of tracepoints into the network stack to yield the sort of latency measurements they would like to see.
Al Gillen of IDC is a common presence at this sort of event; he gave a chart-heavy talk on how IDC expects things to go in the server marketplace. The outlook for Linux server shipments would appear to be bright. One interesting tidbit from the talk: Linux server shipments will be growing strongly in the coming years, while Unix will be declining. That means that, in 2013, the Linux market looks likely to reach half the revenue value of the Unix server market. Unix may be suffering, but there's still a lot of money being spent on it.
Anthony Golia of Morgan Stanley discussed the use of Linux there; Morgan Stanley has been heavily using the operating system for several years now, and is running it on tens of thousands of systems. It was, he says, a bit of a rough start, but Morgan Stanley learned that the community "lends itself well to partnership." The company figured out how to send fixes back upstream and has experience the "warm fuzzy feeling" that comes with getting fixes merged. In recent times they are finding far fewer bugs and are quite happy with the choice to go with Linux.
Anthony had some requests too, beginning with support for TCP offload engines. What Morgan Stanley really needs, though, is shorter network latencies. Trades are dependent on getting orders in quickly in response to events, and latencies work against that goal. They would like a way to generate long-term statistics of a process's memory use, mostly as a way of knowing whether it's safe to load more work onto a specific server. There was also a request for better coordination between distributors and hardware manufacturers, yielding support for new hardware as soon as that hardware is available.
Jeffrey Birnbaum of the Bank of America led a session on shortcomings he sees with Linux at this time. In particular, Jeffrey anticipates a future dominated by increasing availability of fast CPUs and the growing influence of solid-state storage devices. The world is changing, and he worries that Linux is not changing quickly enough to keep up with it. Technology is improving quickly, he says, and the kernel is holding users back.
Specific problems include latency in the network stack and the ability of networking to make use of large numbers of CPUs. TCP, he says, is not scalable, but it wasn't clear where the problems are. One request that was clear was a means by which messages could be sent to multiple destinations with a single system call - something akin to the proposed sendmmsg() system call. He suggested that the time has come to move beyond POSIX interfaces - he is a fan of Ulrich Drepper's event interface proposal - and that the use of protocols like SATA to talk to solid-state storage is a mistake. There was also some discussion about difficulties getting a scalability problem with the epoll_wait() system call fixed.
Perhaps the clearest point to emerge from this session is that users like Jeffrey need a solid channel to communicate with the development community about their needs and frustrations. One would think that this would be an ideal role for enterprise distribution vendors to fill; indeed, in the following session, Novell's Carlos Montero-Luque described the session as a great advertisement for commercial distributions. But, for whatever reason, those distributions do not appear to be filling that role in this case.
Carlos, along with Red Hat's Brian Stevens, talked about the future as the distributors see it. There was lots of talk on the value of Linux on mainframes, which seems to be of great interest to this user community currently. Interestingly, Brian noted that Red Hat is not entirely sure that the success which has been achieved with Linux can be replicated at other levels; the JBoss development community, for example, is nearly 100% Red Hat employees.
On the subject of unpaid Linux, Brian claimed that these deployments were "fantastic." Anything which grows the overall market can only be good for the participants therein. Carlos had some darker comments about how unpaid Linux is not "free," and that it will always be paid for in some other way.
[PULL QUOTE: Everybody was afraid of being sued and ending up on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, so outright prohibitions on the use of open source were common. END QUOTE] Tim Golden is a manager at a high-profile American bank; in his talk on "the changing role of enterprise open source," though, he was clear to point out that he was speaking only for himself. This talk started with the relatively early days, when companies like banks saw open source as being far too risky to use. Everybody was afraid of being sued and ending up on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, so outright prohibitions on the use of open source were common.
There were a couple of intermediate steps, including one where managers came to the radical conclusion that the submission of bug fixes did not deprive a company of its Valuable Intellectual Property. During this time, fears about the use of open source faded considerably, and companies increasingly decided that they could tolerate whatever risk remained - at least in "high value" situations.
The current situation is heavily affected by the financial crisis; financial companies have realized that they must find a way to be competitive with far less money. This understanding has helped to usher in the "open source software as a strategy" era, with companies setting up formalized management programs for open source. An interesting thing is happening in some companies as they go through this process, though: executives are figuring out that it's hard to drive open-source projects from the back seat. They are also coming to the conclusion that participation in development projects is not as disruptive as they had once thought.
So now these companies are beginning to dip their toes in the water and look at ways to participate. There are lots of options, ranging from simple cash contributions - which don't create any real linkage with the community - through to investments in companies and "intellectual property contributions." Eventually, says Tim, we'll start to see something that was once unthinkable: development projects being run by end users.
That last statement maybe reveals something about how these companies see free software. To them, projects run by end users are a new, scary, and exotic thing. But your editor would submit that almost every development project of interest is run by end users. The developers who came together to create the Linux kernel weren't working for others. The group that pulled together their patches and released "a patchy" server were planning to deploy that server (now "Apache") themselves. As end users in the financial industry start to run projects aimed at meeting their own needs, some of those projects, at least, should prove equally successful.
There is no need to convince the financial industry that free software can
benefit its operation; they have understood that for a few years now.
Convincing this industry that contributing to the software it uses makes sense has been
somewhat harder. It would appear that this message is starting to be
heard, and companies in this industry are beginning to look for ways to
reach out to the development community. Events like the End User Summit
seem like an ideal way to facilitate communication between the existing
development community and its future members; it is a learning experience
for everybody involved.
Index entries for this article | |
---|---|
Conference | End User Summit/2009 |
Posted Nov 13, 2009 16:50 UTC (Fri)
by Cato (guest, #7643)
[Link] (5 responses)
This means you could replace a 144 CPU SPARC server, which must have cost $500,000 at least, with a 24 core x86 server giving the same throughput - one server from HP (quad Xeon, 6 core processors) is priced at $20,000. In the current economic situation, this is amazingly attractive for any new deployments - you may even find the old hardware's annual maintenance is more than the cost of the new hardware, so it's worth the hassle of switching an existing server.
Of course, your mileage may vary, and this ignores disk I/O, reliability features, etc - but you can get resilience through clustering these days, by buying two or three of these servers.
The only real options on x86 are Linux and Windows, in terms of what major corporations will specify and major ISVs will support (I know Solaris x86 exists, but how many people really use this compared to Linux?). Many companies who have used Unix for decades are far more comfortable with Linux than Windows for mission critical software, and their applications will port easily to Linux.
This is probably why I'm seeing a huge upsurge this year of enterprises that are specifying Linux for formerly Unix only applications. Far more of an uptick in switching to Linux than in the post-dotcom downturn.
Posted Nov 16, 2009 1:08 UTC (Mon)
by motk (guest, #51120)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Nov 16, 2009 7:19 UTC (Mon)
by Cato (guest, #7643)
[Link] (3 responses)
Of course, Sun does sell x86 servers a lot these days, but I couldn't find a 24 core Xeon server on their website yet, and once a company has a choice of x86 vendors they won't only look at Sun.
Posted Nov 19, 2009 20:28 UTC (Thu)
by harlekyn (guest, #9207)
[Link] (2 responses)
The X4440 is a 4 socket AMD server and supports up to 24 cores: http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x4440/
The Intel equivalent is the X4450: http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x4450/
But you'd rather want to get a Nehalem-powered Intel box. Only available as dual-sockets at the moment, they still give the Dunnington a run for its money. An example would be the Sun X4270: http://www.sun.com/servers/x64/x4270/
Posted Nov 19, 2009 21:07 UTC (Thu)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 19, 2009 21:58 UTC (Thu)
by harlekyn (guest, #9207)
[Link]
Posted Nov 13, 2009 17:18 UTC (Fri)
by jhubbard (guest, #5513)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Nov 19, 2009 10:15 UTC (Thu)
by TRS-80 (guest, #1804)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 21, 2009 1:34 UTC (Sat)
by giraffedata (guest, #1954)
[Link] (1 responses)
But I'm not sure what the point is about the missing specs, because the SSD manufacturers don't give us access to the underlying device. All we get is a SATA jack, so the only relevant spec is the SATA spec.
On the other hand, many vendors offer flash memory with a PCI interface and complete specs on that interface. Isn't that all we need if we don't care for the disk drive emulation method of accessing flash?
Posted Nov 21, 2009 17:55 UTC (Sat)
by giraffedata (guest, #1954)
[Link]
I take this back. I remember having a conversation recently about this and while there are PCI flash memory devices available, and they're usable on Linux, apparently the interface protocol is not in fact specified and people use them on Linux via object code only device drivers.
These device drivers present a Linux block device interface, which is almost as bad as SATA, in that it is designed for disk drives.
Posted Nov 13, 2009 17:30 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (1 responses)
(Are all 'end users' bankers and big server people, though? Depressing, if so: the big iron people have huge amounts of influence as it is. That they want more...)
Posted Nov 13, 2009 20:51 UTC (Fri)
by Cato (guest, #7643)
[Link]
Posted Nov 13, 2009 17:37 UTC (Fri)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link] (15 responses)
-jef
Posted Nov 13, 2009 17:46 UTC (Fri)
by corbet (editor, #1)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Nov 13, 2009 18:13 UTC (Fri)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link] (10 responses)
Is the unpaid to paid deployment for linux distributions a close parallel to parasite and host relationships in biological ecosystems? And if so which is the host and which is the parasite? And what is the nature of the relationship? Is it primarily symbiotic where both groups benefit? Is it parasitic where one group is harmed at the benefit of the other? Or is it mutual convenience where for the most part neither is harmed or helped by the other (until an environmental stressor puts one community under pressure and throws off the dynamic balance)
I think we all want to believe the nature of the relationship its symbiotic. But I'm not sure we have metrics which point out that it is.
-jef
Posted Nov 13, 2009 19:51 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link]
Many businesses require paid support for contractual reasons, or as part of
So there are all sorts of reasons why people do support, but they paid the
As far as development goes.. for busy projects you really do need full time
So I expect it's heavily symbiotic.
Maybe when the market for Linux stagnates you might see some adversarial
Posted Nov 13, 2009 20:56 UTC (Fri)
by Cato (guest, #7643)
[Link] (4 responses)
In some ways CentOS is a perpetual 'free trial' for people who are more cost
Posted Nov 13, 2009 21:13 UTC (Fri)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link] (3 responses)
-jef
Posted Nov 14, 2009 0:27 UTC (Sat)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Dec 1, 2009 10:52 UTC (Tue)
by robbe (guest, #16131)
[Link] (1 responses)
I was under the impression that many (most?) of the Gartner/IDC/whatever
Posted Dec 4, 2009 1:19 UTC (Fri)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link]
over the last 10 years it hasn't been unusual to see a company pronounce that linux is junk and then learn that a lot of their datacenter infrastructure had been moved to linux without the senior management knowing about it.
the people who know how many systems are running linux are too busy getting work done to fill out this sort of thing
Posted Nov 16, 2009 16:31 UTC (Mon)
by blitzkrieg3 (guest, #57873)
[Link] (3 responses)
"If you asked me two years ago about the adoption of unpaid linux, I'd have said that it would mostly get converted to paid linux. That's not what happened."
The graph looked mostly linear for both. I could go into more detail but I believe he is going to post the slides somewhere.
Posted Nov 16, 2009 17:23 UTC (Mon)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link] (2 responses)
-jef"pronouns kills"spaleta
Posted Nov 16, 2009 17:25 UTC (Mon)
by blitzkrieg3 (guest, #57873)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 16, 2009 17:42 UTC (Mon)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link]
-jef
Posted Nov 14, 2009 6:51 UTC (Sat)
by ldarby (guest, #41318)
[Link] (2 responses)
That's pretty much the same argument as downloading music without paying for it increases the exposure of that artist and therefor their revenues. I do agree that the lack of metrics makes if hard/impossible to see what the truth is.
Posted Nov 16, 2009 16:26 UTC (Mon)
by dark (guest, #8483)
[Link] (1 responses)
The "Macaulay on copyright law" piece is worth reading, anyway.
Posted Nov 16, 2009 20:12 UTC (Mon)
by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
[Link]
The conclusions that can be drawn from the Baen Free Library experiment are not directly applicable for the computer software market in general and certainly not the linux operating system market aimed at business end-users like the ones at the LF End User Summit.
The market dynamics for operating system software are intrinsically different than what fiction book authors are presented with. For books and music.. older works still hold a significant amount of value for both the producer and the consumer. When a new reader "discovers" an author there's a reasonable chance that new reader will want to experience some or all of the authors older works...not just the latest book. That doesn't happen for linux distributions or for most categories of software. If your first experience with OpenOffice is version 2.0 there's very little chance you'll choose to go back and use OpenOffice 1.x unless your forced to for some bizarre technical reason.
By and large software releases are about incremental improvements... not completely new works... and thus the back catelog ecnomics just don't exist. The only area of software that has the same sort of back catalog value dynamics which drive the economic feedback that makes the Baen Free Library worthwhile for authors are software games titles.. and that's pretty much out of scope for the discussion at hand. We aren't talking about unpaid deployments of software games. No for operating system deployments we don't have any metric driven picture of how unpaid versus paid deployments really impact the market... and Eric Flint's metrics for book authors participating in free library activities don't map over.
-jef
Posted Nov 14, 2009 3:35 UTC (Sat)
by dkite (guest, #4577)
[Link] (1 responses)
As I was reading about how these firms want some control or influence over
Or to broach a rather explosive subject, propose 6-7 digit bonuses to anyone
Do they think we don't like eating? I'm sure that even corbet would accept
Derek
Posted Nov 14, 2009 4:40 UTC (Sat)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link]
Posted Nov 14, 2009 14:57 UTC (Sat)
by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454)
[Link] (1 responses)
This is no surprise, while JBoss is Free Software it's still not available in distros like Fedora. If Red Hat own employees can not manage to massage JBoss so it can be accepted Fedora-side, who else is going to look at its code?
There is a major gap between something released cleanly enough so another employee can look at it with some hand-holding using internal resources, and something that can be built and deployed by a third party alone (and by built I mean built as good as the upstream binaries, not a frankenstein assembled with sticky tapes). No one is going to contribute to something he can't build reliably.
When you're doing internal development you can use all sorts of shortcuts such as freezing a component version and pretending it is not evolving anymore upstream. But external developers are only going to accept common standards (same components as every one else, latest version accepted by everyone else, standard build system, etc)
Posted Nov 14, 2009 15:23 UTC (Sat)
by rahulsundaram (subscriber, #21946)
[Link]
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/KojiMavenSupport
Easier to tackle it once the core pieces are in.
Posted Nov 24, 2009 22:19 UTC (Tue)
by oak (guest, #2786)
[Link]
Something like this:
?
Posted Nov 25, 2009 11:23 UTC (Wed)
by Hanno (guest, #41730)
[Link] (2 responses)
With commercial and industrial users like these described here and there, why don't these companies do more pro-OSS lobbying? It should be in their best interest to foster OSS development and to oppose OSS unfriendly legislation, which we see popping up every now and then.
Yet it seems that only some weird nerds are outspoken on these issues, while corporate Linux users are mostly mum.
Where is the powerful pro-OSS lobbying organization that includes Linux users such as NYSE, Morgan Stanley, Sony, Sharp, Panasonic etc.?
Posted Nov 26, 2009 9:47 UTC (Thu)
by sustrik (guest, #62161)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Nov 26, 2009 9:55 UTC (Thu)
by Hanno (guest, #41730)
[Link]
x86 costs and the switch to Linux
x86 costs and the switch to Linux
x86 costs and the switch to Linux
x86 costs and the switch to Linux
x86 costs and the switch to Linux
At least from a CPU performance perspective, it's about as fast as the newer system with four hexa-cores. AMD has not only added 2 more cores, but added further optimizations to the chip (e.g. an improved snoop filter). x86 costs and the switch to Linux
Sun Fire X4600 M2 (AMD Opteron 8384 2.7GHz), 32 cores: 386 SPECint_rate2006
Sun Fire X4440 (AMD Opteron 8435 2.6GHz), 24 cores: 377 SPECint_rate2006
For the time being, you only have to get the 8-socket X4600 M2 if you need more than 256 GB of memory in a single box. Once AMD releases the hexa-cores for the 8-socket boxes, there's one more compelling reason. Such a 48-core box sounds...sweet :)
Notes from the LF End User Summit
It was written about here:Notes from the LF End User Summit
Currently, manufacturers are taking the trade secret strategy for maintaining their competitive advantage - apply for patents on individual elements of the design, but keep the overall implementation a secret. The message to file systems developers is "Just trust us" and "Don't worry your pretty little systems programmers' heads about it" whenever we ask for more information on SSD implementation.
jhubbard is talking about specs, not implementation. We don't really care that the SSD makers are keeping their implementation secret because we can figure out one just as good (in fact, far better they keep it secret than patent it).
Notes from the LF End User Summit
Notes from the LF End User Summit
On the other hand, many vendors offer flash memory with a PCI interface and complete specs on that interface.
Notes from the LF End User Summit
in 2013, the Linux market looks likely to reach half the revenue value of the Unix server market
Of course, Linux boxes generally cost less than Unix servers, and not all Linux boxes (even production server boxes) are gettng paid support at all, so it's perfectly possible that the number of production Linux servers is higher than the number of production Unix servers at this point.
Notes from the LF End User Summit
Street turned out in force. Elsewhere in the US, there might have been more
balance across industries. However, Wall Street has always been the first to
jump on new technologies for an edge, from Windows LANs and RISC servers
through to Linux.
Notes from the LF End User Summit
He didn't say a whole lot more than what I reported; it was passed over fairly quickly. The IDC presentation had some pretty graphs showing that both types of deployments were growing at similar rates, though.
Unpaid deployments
Unpaid deployments
I certainly want to believe that non-paid deployments are beneficial long term. But then again, I'm probably part of the parasitic community and its difficult to convincing tell myself I'm causing harm for not paying for my deployments. As a species..we seem to have an inexhaustible capacity at denying our own accountability for harm if given half a chance to rationalize it away.
Unpaid deployments
deployments for mitigating costs.
support package for applications, or for regulatory reasons. I think that
some places have requirements that even if they are capable of supporting
their own servers, they always hire out for support; there own admins are
not allowed to touch the hardware.
premium support costs for every little thing they want to use Linux on then
that would be massively more expensive then just sticking with Unix or
going with Windows.
people to at least do coordinating and documentation, even if most of the
development happens from third parties working part time.
stuff going on, but as long as it all keeps growing then everybody should
be happy.
Unpaid deployments
forums, blogs, etc - this is valuable to the paid-for product as long as
there's still a 'conversion rate' from free to paid-for that is high enough
(in absolute numbers) for the paid-for product provider to make a profit.
sensitive or want to deploy a new system very quickly, vs. people who need
commercial support - when some CentOS users get more budget, maybe in a
different company or somewhere that rapid support is worth paying for,
they'll go RHEL. If CentOS was very different to RHEL this switch would be
harder, and ultimately CentOS would be less valuable to Red Hat.
Unpaid deployments
Nobody keeps track of numbers like that.
Unpaid deployments
It's nearly impossible to tell how many Linux vs Windows vs Unix servers
are sold or being used.
Here is the problem:
Businesses don't advertise their IT infrastructure. They keep it secret
because, frankly, it's nobody else's business.
So the only way you can get a feel of a market wide is through server sales
revenue.
Why? (you may ask)
Because most OEMs are large publicly held corporations. As being publicly
held corporations they are required to publish a certain amount of
information about revenue and markets to their customers. This information
is publicly available since there is little point to keeping a secret, if
that was possible. So the people that compile statistics can only
extrapolate market shares by revenue shares.
But there are many major problems to this approach, like:
* It does not actually tell you what is being used for what. They may by a
server, but you don't know for a fact that they are even using it for
anything. As far as we know the majority of customers could be piling
servers into a feild and setting them on fire. Now this is unlikely, but it
would be impossible to really know one way or another.
* It does not tell you how long they are being used. People tend to swap
out Windows servers 2-3 years. People tend to use Linux and Unix systems
for much longer. But you can't know to what extent or how often that is the
case with any sort of reasonable accuracy, and it's impossible to know much
more beyond educated guesses.
* It does not reflect numbers of servers from sources other then purposely
sold servers by major OEMs. So-called 'White Box' servers, which are
popular, are sold by generally privately held corporations whose activities
are not being tracked by research groups. Also you don't know about
desktops-turned-servers, or people putting Windows on Linux servers or visa
versa. And all sorts of things like that.
Personally I think that this means that Linux market is heavily
understated. But it's impossible for me to know one way or another.
You may have noticed that Linux server revenue is closer to Unix
revenue. However Linux servers tend to cost less then (guessing..) 5 grand
while Unix systems can cost a half a million dollars sometimes, maybe even
more. So the amount of Linux servers out there probably outnumber Unix
systems 10 or even 100 to one.
When you compare Linux vs Windows server the licensing for Windows is such
that going out and buying a dedicated server from Dell is cheaper the
taking a older machine and upgrading it or buying a desktop and installing
Windows server on it... which is all common things for Linux folks to do.
*shrug*
Unpaid deployments
restrictions to only publish aggregate numbers, if needs be. You probably
won't get honest answers about their unpaid Windows deployments, but
there is no big incentive to lie about unpaid Linux installations.
studies are done this way.
Unpaid deployments
Unpaid deployments
Unpaid deployments
Unpaid deployments
Unpaid deployments
Notes from the LF End User Summit
> impact on increasing demand for linux development related expenditures
The Baen Free Library has some metrics. For books, not music :) Eric Flint examined the sales of his books which had been put up for free download, compared with similar books which hadn't. Unfortunately I can't find them anymore :( Probably buried in one of the editorials.
Notes from the LF End User Summit
Notes from the LF End User Summit
Notes from the LF End User Summit
the process, my thought was why don't they hire a kernel hacker?
submitting a patch that solves their problem?
some of their filthy lucre.
Notes from the LF End User Summit
are learning to trust the process and are looking at ways to participate. It
takes years and years for people to change their outlook on software and how
to run things.
Notes from the LF End User Summit
Notes from the LF End User Summit
Notes from the LF End User Summit
memory use, mostly as a way of knowing whether it's safe to load more work
onto a specific server.
http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5/sp-en...
http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5/sp-en...
Here's something I don't understand.Why no more potent pro-OSS lobbying from these users?
Why no more potent pro-OSS lobbying from these users?
Why no more potent pro-OSS lobbying from these users?