people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 6, 2009 15:48 UTC (Fri) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877)
In reply to: people do change from MS to GNU/Linux by marduk
Parent article: Linux owns 32 percent of netbook market, says study (DesktopLinux.com)

Please check out System76 and ZaReason's netbooks before setting for a Windows one. Is the price of having Linux go away worth the netbook?

people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 6, 2009 19:28 UTC (Fri) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link] (8 responses)

/me remembers running Linux on PCs *long* before it was even an option to buy one with Linux pre-installed.

I'm not worried about Linux "going away". Maybe it will go away on Netbooks, maybe not. But I'm not losing any sleep over it.

The "Netbook" I'm considering is worth more to me than the "price" of what OS comes pre-installed on it. I have basically passed off Netbooks over the years because none of them really had what *I* wanted. This one comes close enough that I'm actually *considering* it. The ones you point out don't come close enough for me. Sorry, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the hardware I want just so I can have a computer with an Ubuntu sticker on it (I don't even use Ubuntu).

people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 6, 2009 21:05 UTC (Fri) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link] (7 responses)

I also remember buying hardware before there was a Linux option. It sucks; the hardware was designed for Windows, and that's all that works 100% with it (e.g. broken DSDTs).

The Linux option already *has* gone away from Netbooks, due to people buying Windows ones and from Microsoft pressure.

Just because you don't value Ubuntu doesn't mean that there isn't value in having Linux-friendly hardware (Linux-hostile hardware is what we get in hardware Designed for Windows).

If you don't care about getting hostile hardware, it's your time. I just wish that my options weren't limited by your choices.

people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 6, 2009 23:59 UTC (Fri) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link] (6 responses)

I do support "Linux-friendly" hardware. In fact I try to buy Linux-friendly hardware whenever I can. My printer, e.g., came with a CD with Linux drivers, albeit outdated ones. All 3 machines in my home (desktop, laptop, HTPC) for instance use open source (Intel) video drivers and in-kernel Wifi drivers. My laptop came with (Suse) Linux pre-installed (even though the manufacturer no longer ships them with Linux).

The difference is *all* these devices met my hardware/price requirements, and that's my #1 priority. The machines mentioned above don't. I'm not here to pay charity to hardware vendors. I pay charity to software because I get more satisfaction and for the most part I get it for free (beer + speech). When it comes to hardware: when it comes to my cash you'd better be selling me what I want or it stays in my wallet, and I don't care *how* Linux-friendly you are (or claim to be).

And actually I *do* value Ubuntu. I just don't *use* it. There's a difference.

people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 7, 2009 1:24 UTC (Sat) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link] (5 responses)

The difference is *all* these devices met my hardware/price requirements, and that's my #1 priority.

The problem is that you're necessarily selecting big-box vendors, as the economies of scale are the thing giving them the low prices. They're also completely beholden to Microsoft. For this reason, you're going to keep buying hardware that's Designed for Windows and perhaps Broken for Linux--the little vendors like ZaReason and System76 just can't beat their volume, and therefore their price.

I pay charity to software because I get more satisfaction and for the most part I get it for free (beer + speech). When it comes to hardware: when it comes to my cash you'd better be selling me what I want or it stays in my wallet, and I don't care *how* Linux-friendly you are (or claim to be).

It's not charity, it's an investment. Freedom isn't free. I personally pay perhaps a bit more for keeping a Linux-supporting hardware vendor around by buying its products, in order to keep Linux-friendly hardware around, so that Linux-supporting hardware continues to exist. My time is worth money, and I look to the long-term. I'm willing to sacrifice time and money now to profit more later.

Why do you have totally different attitudes toward hardware and software? It's two sides of the same coin--and sometimes the same side of the same coin, with the increasing importance of firmware.

people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 7, 2009 2:17 UTC (Sat) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link] (4 responses)

Actually, this is *not* a big box (computer) vendor. In fact, this is the first time this vendor has come out with a product like this. It's just that it's about time someone has come out with a netbook that I'd actually consider buying instead of the POS I'm used to seeing and it's by a relative noobie.

And actually the price is comparable to the major vendors, maybe even a little bit more. But I'm happy to pay more because I'm getting what I want.

This company is not "beholden" by Microsoft. They are not a PC manufacturer (until now).

I don't feel like I'm getting a return on my "investment" if I'm paying more but getting less. Again, I support (financially) open source software because I get a lot more back than what I invest. Hardware is not the same. If I buy crappy hardware then I'm just stuck with crappy hardware. I'm not looking to profit later. I'm looking for the now. Right now I'm in the market for a netbook. I'm not going to spend hundreds of dollars on a sub-par netbook in the hopes that in 5 or more years I'll be able to spend a hundreds of dollars again on a netbook from the same vendor that I might actually want this time around. That's just BS charity. I give charity to open source software because even if I don't like/benefit from it I can donate money and others who cannot afford to or are unwilling to donate can still benefit from it. Show me an example of that in the hardware world?

Also, if i spend $50 for open source software and it turns out to be lacking then I or the community can always make it better. This is not analogous in the hardware world. If you buy crap hardware you're stuck with it (unless you return it of course).

I have totally different attitudes about hardware and software because of this. I have yet to see a not-for-profit hardware vendor. I've given my hard-earned cash to the Gentoo Foundation, Gnome Foundation, CentOS, Mozilla Foundation, the Python Foundation, and the RIPLinuX guy. (I don't even use CentOS or Firefox but I think they're awesome software). These organizations exist to promote free software (well, maybe not so much for Mozilla anymore). Hardware vendors are different. They're for-profit. That means they have to actually compete for my money. If these hardware vendors allowed me to pay what *I* think is fair the way I can for the non-profits, sure I'd buy one, but I wouldn't pay what they're charging because it's not worth what they're giving me. When I see a not-for-profit hardware organization make me say "wow" the way I do when I write a Python program then I'll happily give them double what I think it's worth retail. But I haven't seen that yet.

Even in the free software world, it would be the same for me. I wouldn't want to pay Red Hat any money for RHEL if I didn't feel I was getting my money's worth. I don't care if it's free software or not. But Red Hat provides a return on investment. Many people think they get more *value* out of Red Hat than from the competition (open source or otherwise). A lot of Red Hat's customers don't even care about open source particularly. They just want to buy a product/service and get their money's worth.

Hardware is like bread to me. I don't care if the bread vendor gives to AIDS awareness or pollutes the oceans. I just wanna go to the market and get a decent loaf of bread. But if you give me a free loaf of bread and I like it then I might throw a few dollars your way.

people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 7, 2009 15:37 UTC (Sat) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link] (3 responses)

Thanks for explaining. I don't mean to needle; I'm mostly trying to make sure you're aware of the side-effects of your decision.

I don't think we see eye to eye, but that's OK. There's room to disagree. :)

Out of curiosity, what is the vendor and netbook?

people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 7, 2009 17:06 UTC (Sat) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link] (2 responses)

Well there's this company called Nokia. It's a company based in Finland and actually they sell these Linux-based Internet tablets (you maybe have one?). Anyway they have made numerous contributions to open source[1]. I didn't see anything on the sites of those other two vendors that indicated that they gave anything to OSS in terms of code or cash. Nokia is coming out with a "netbook" that has *almost* everything I would want if I were to buy one. They are coming out with the Booklet 3G[2]. Actually probably the best thing I like about this netbook is that it is *not* a netbook (they don't even call it that). It's got most of the features I want (except SSD) and nearly no features that I don't need (except 3G ironically). It's small, but hopefully not too small (how do people type for any length of time on those little things?). It's got bluetooth, 802.11n, GPS, HDMI (why do most of these guys still carry VGA? at least provide DVI), "720p" resolution, decent web cam, decent speakers (I hope), decent build quality (It's a Nokia) and it doesn't look like a toy (many netbooks look like something I'd give to my little niece to play with but I wouldn't be seen with one in public). It's light-weight, low power, fanless, and long lasting battery (or so they claim).

Find me a Linux-friendly hardware vendor that competes with that (like throw in SSD or something) and I'll definitely consider it. The "side effects" of my decision is hopefully these other guys will wise up and sell me something worth buying instead of putting lipstick (or in this case stickers) on a pig.

I will be testing this out. The fact that it comes pre-loaded with Windows 7 doesn't bother me at all. I'm hoping that since Nokia is no stranger to Linux that they've at least tested it internally with Linux. And because Torvalds is Finnish I'm hoping he'll get one and thereby accelerate any hardware support it may lack ;)

1. http://opensource.nokia.com/contributions.html
2. http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/mini-laptops

people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 7, 2009 20:07 UTC (Sat) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link] (1 responses)

Umm, that runs Poulsbo, and is going to be difficult to have Linux running on (http://lwn.net/Articles/359186/)

The ZaReason netbook seems to be similar: http://www.zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16216&...

3G, n-wireless, SSD option, up to 2GB, comes with a 'buntu or no OS. It lacks HDMI/DVI, the higher-res (not by much), Bluetooth, and perhaps GPS (maybe in the 3G device). But for that the video should Just Work in whatever distro you choose. You might also call/email them and see what they can work with (they've been quite responsive whenever I've talked with them).

Both ZaReason and System76 have regular 12" notebooks that have most of that, but with more RAM, faster CPUs, higher-res screens, and a card slot to get a GPS/CDMA, and HDMI/DVI.

And the DSDT hopefully isn't braindead.

people do change from MS to GNU/Linux

Posted Nov 7, 2009 21:18 UTC (Sat) by marduk (subscriber, #3831) [Link]

Yeah, I've heard in the past that that device had problems with Linux but hadn't kept an eye on it. Hopefully they'll get enough pressure that they'll come out with some decent support. Or else I'll just have to wait for it or something better to come alone.

The ZaReason netbook wouldn't work for me. I've got a pretty good laptop right now, and it doesn't have any of the things "I'd get a netbook if only..." that are on my list. Other than 802.11n and SSD, there's nothing it has that i don't already have (and want). Heck, even my hot and "heavy" laptop has better battery life than that thing.

I'm don't truly need a netbook. I'm actually very happy with the laptop that I have now. But if I *did* get one I'm basically looking for what I have now +lighter, +longer battery life, -optical drive, +built-in camera (and that's comparable to my external one), +bluetooth (mine had that as an option but i made the mistake of opting out), +digital video out (why have analog VGA? I'll never use it), +doesn't look/feel flaky or toyish, +keyboard that I can actually *type* on. I actually don't think I'd need the GPS, but it would be nice to have. 3G i definitely won't use.

I don't know if such a "netbook" does/ever will exist, Linux or not, which is basically why I've yet to jump on the netbook bandwagon. Their target market seems to be "people who want a cheap, tiny laptop" whereas what I'm looking for is a lighter/low(er) power laptop.

The 12" notebooks actually cost more than what I have now and arguably have poorer build quality, but the HDMI would be nice. No thanks to the pink case.