Learning experiences

Posted Oct 13, 2009 12:34 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (guest, #15091)
In reply to: driver code by jospoortvliet
Parent article: Free N900 (KDE.News)

I would have thought that the N770, N800 and N810 were good enough learning experiences. Didn't they learn from them that binary-only drivers are evil? For them and for us.

Learning experiences

Posted Oct 13, 2009 13:24 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link] (2 responses)

I'm not aware of a single modern embedded 3D core that has fully open drivers, and Nokia don't have the design experience to produce one themselves.

Closed until further notice

Posted Oct 13, 2009 19:29 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (1 responses)

I was not specifically talking about 3D cores, embedded or otherwise. But I (and surely many others) was hoping that the N900 would be the first truly open smartphone out there (with OpenMoko's permission), even if they had to innovate a lot. Not just "each bit closed until people nag them enough to bother", as the wiki pages seem to suggest. Proprietary userspace we can live with (or without); but binary drivers are about the worst, right after locked bootloader.

Closed until further notice

Posted Oct 13, 2009 19:44 UTC (Tue) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

Nokia isn't a direct customer of any embedded 3D core vendor, and as a consequence they have no direct leverage in this matter. Changing that would require Nokia to either design their own 3D core or get into SoC design, and neither of these are realistic options. So, while, yes, it would be awesome if Nokia were to release an entirely open smartphone, having that happen would require a vast capital outlay for approximately no benefit to Nokia.

Learning experiences

Posted Oct 13, 2009 13:27 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (5 responses)

It is not really Nokia's choice to open some of it.

The PowerVR graphics, for example, are used to provide video acceleration.
This is the same core that Intel uses in it's GMA 500, which the 3D parts
are proprietary, too. Then there is the GSM bits, which require some DRM
according to the specifications and requirements. And the DSP bits are from
Texas Instruments and it is not Nokia's choice to have them open or closed.

That sort of thing. Some of it is Nokia's choice to be closed.. like some
of the UI parts (which I don't really care about) and some power management
features like the battery management system, which is given some BS excuse
about safety (like all Lithium batteries there should be circuits built
into the battery to prevent damaging them.)

All in all these are the same problems your going to run into when you buy
_any_ Linux smartphone that has modern hardware in it.

The TI OMAP platform is going to be used in pretty much everything and
other ARM platforms are not going to be really any different.

Especially the PowerVR chip is going to be a PITA. IT would be nice if AMD
started cranking out graphics for ARM platforms, but I don't see that
happening.

If people don't get their hands on this and apply reverse-engineering
techniques and create their own open source drivers, like which has already
been done on the majority of PC-based systems, then everybody here is just
going to run into the the exact same problems with any phone released in
the future, whether it is from Nokia, Motorola, Chinese knock-off, Android,
Limo, WebOS, or any other Linux phone.

So if people are going to abandon N900 they are going to have to make the
same choice on all commercially viable Linux smartphones now and into the
future.

The N900 is Unique in that Nokia is actually encouraging hacking on it. If
people "liberate" this platform then that will make it much easier to
"liberate" future smartphones and Android phones and whatever you want to
use.

Hell, waiting for ATOM phones is not going to gain you much. They are still
going to be using the PowerVR graphics stuff, for example, and will be
probably more proprietary then the N900 is.

Learning experiences

Posted Oct 13, 2009 16:33 UTC (Tue) by pboddie (guest, #50784) [Link] (1 responses)

What you say is largely the sad truth. However, I take issue with this:

It is not really Nokia's choice to open some of it.

When projects like Openmoko (and their successors) try and get access to documentation, their bargaining power is very limited: the vendor is likely to give them the brush-off over such "intrusive" demands concerning a mere five-digit number of units. Still, the Openmoko follow-up efforts try their hardest to use open hardware where they can, and they've surely seen the pitfalls of using stuff which people thought was "open enough".

Meanwhile, Nokia ships millions of units every year and is in a much better negotiating position. If they can't bring pressure to bear on their vendors, they're either not trying, or they should be concerned about the strategic implications of their vendors getting to call all the shots.

Learning experiences

Posted Oct 13, 2009 16:59 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Your right to a certain extent, but this is just one product line out of dozens. Hopefully if N900 is a success and there is a visible commercial demand for completely open drivers then other manufacturers will follow suit.

All these embedded companies like Ti come from a tradition were spending a huge amount of effort on a one-off software application/driver that only works with one product is very normal and is acceptable...

Learning experiences

Posted Oct 13, 2009 17:06 UTC (Tue) by sylware (guest, #35259) [Link] (1 responses)

In the last HTC android terminal, what driver code is missing?

Learning experiences

Posted Oct 13, 2009 17:17 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

Are you talking about HTC Hero? Or the Tattoo?

I think both of those ship as locked-down phones with proprietary UI code. I have no idea about the bootloader or drivers or whatever, or even where to go to find that information.

Learning experiences

Posted Oct 13, 2009 22:01 UTC (Tue) by lbt (subscriber, #29672) [Link]

You are aware that Nokia persuaded TI to provide OSS drivers for the kernel part of the N800/N810 GPU and a re-distributable binary X driver.

ETA ~2 weeks - delivery via the Mer project at http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/

You know how you get that slow, beautiful (and seemingly never ending) transition between the pitch black of night and the bright new dawn....