Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Posted Sep 1, 2009 19:22 UTC (Tue) by hingo (guest, #14792)Parent article: Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/supported_features.png
Posted Sep 1, 2009 20:08 UTC (Tue)
by jordanb (guest, #45668)
[Link] (21 responses)
And the reason why the "flash experience" is poor in Free Software is because it's a proprietary format that has to be reverse-engineered at great effort. Why the proprietary Adobe player is crappy on Linux (and OSX)... is presumably because Adobe doesn't see it to be in their best interest to offer any more than token support for non-Wintel platforms.
Posted Sep 1, 2009 21:56 UTC (Tue)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (11 responses)
Linux has a number of serious deficits in terms of video drivers and API support on it's desktop that makes what Adobe does on Linux very very difficult. It's much harder for Adobe to get good and consistent performance on Linux then it is on Windows or even OS X due to a number of reasons.
-------------------------------
Here is a example.
Look at DirectX vs OpenGL + SDL. SDL and OpenGL is about the closest we have to DirectX.
As you know gaming development is now dominated by DirectX. Now.. why would developers choose DirectX over OpenGL? OpenGL is fine and can take advantage of hardware just as well when you add vendor extensions and OpenGL is cross platform. So there has to be other things that the developers find valuable over DirectX.
Now you can point out developer tools and hype/marketting and that sort of thing, which is true. However I am convinced that one of the major reasons why DirectX displaced OpenGL as the API of choice for gaming developers is because of _constistancy_.
Even in Windows each vendor has it's own OpenGL stack. Sure you get a generic one from Microsoft, but when you install proprietary drivers then you end up using their proprietary stack.
Intel, ATI, Nvidia.. all have different OpenGL implementations. And vendor extensions are different from one to another. They have different performance profiles, different effects, and so on and so forth.
So in effect when your program for OpenGL on Windows your not targetting 'windows'. Windows is a like the Genus. Each video card provides you a different species of platform.
Were as with DirectX, Microsoft forces each vendor to have a consistent hardware platform and provides the unified software stack. When you program for DirectX there is not going to be much difference between end user's computers. This dramatically lowers the cost, effort, and support overhead of making games.
So in this way one of biggest reasons DirectX wins is not because of the techology, it's because of the developers have a easier time with it.
Now fast forward to Linux....
Linux is extremely schizophrenic. It's MUCH worse then anything you'd ever face in Windows.
Open source drivers vs nvidia drivers vs ati drivers vs open source nvidia drivers vs open source ati drivers. For a huge part of the target audiance you can't even depend on there being _ANY_ acceleration at all. And what acceleration is present, all except for proprietary nvidia users, is very inconsistant, buggy, and universally slow.
API support is spotty and incomplete. The only people have any sort of constistancy and performance approaching what you can get in Windows is proprietary Nvidia drivers... and even people using nvidia hardware they have to go through extra steps to install the drivers otherwise (until very recently) they lacked any sort of 3D acceleration at all.
Look at the discusson that went on here with Gnome 3.0 and Gnome shell. You have half of everybody bitching that requiring any sort of acceleration at all is just going to break their machines and make everything perform like shit, make it buggy, use to much resources, etc etc. When in fact when you take advantage of acceleration it _SHOULD_ things _faster_ and more efficient... A composited desktop is more efficient and faster then one that is not, for example. (it's just a better design.) Yet the common user experience on Linux is almost exactly opposite.
Any computer made in the last 13 years or so has relatively decent acceleration. Enough for many tasks. Any computer made in the last 7 years or so should have the capabilities to run simple and older OpenGL games and whatnot with accepetable performance. Even IGP stuff.
Yet it's very likely that a machine sold _yesterday_, when Linux is installed, will lack the ability to play Quakelive/Quake3 with good performance.. which is based on a _open_source_ game engine that was originally released for Linux 10 years ago.
This makes doing any sort of graphics work, if your goal is to support anybody other then just proprietary Nvidia users, just pure hell on Linux.
This is primarially why Adobe Flash on Linux sucks and is why you'll see the majority of open source and indie game development is happenning on Windows.
Posted Sep 2, 2009 2:13 UTC (Wed)
by PaulWay (guest, #45600)
[Link] (9 responses)
DirectX has been changing constantly with every release. Not only do new features get added but they've changed how things worked and removed old stuff. I've had endless problems trying to get old games to run on versions of DirectX later than the one they were designed for. And this still doesn't address the issues of getting the best performance out of the hardware - Windows game designers often have to write special code to work with different graphics and sound hardware because of 'special' features, just as hardware drivers have been known to add in workarounds for some games' broken behaviour...
So realistically this isn't actually dissimilar from the 'chaos' you describe in Linux. Sound and video 'just works' on Windows or OS X is just a myth. I've seen far too many Windows developers harp on about how difficult it must be to program for different kernel versions, sound drivers, etc and gloss over huge swags of 'custom' code. OpenGL makes this look like a piece of nice, stable cake by comparison.
And then you've got the fact that Microsoft has been shown to be redoing its APIs just so that it can get a development lead for its own products at the cost of its competitors. I'd rather deal with the Linux developer community, arguments and stormings-off and outright refusals and all, than be told outright "we've just redesigned the fundamental API that your product uses, and we're releasing a product that competes with yours that uses that API, and its coming out at the same time that you're getting the API specs."
Have fun,
Paul
Posted Sep 2, 2009 5:01 UTC (Wed)
by zlynx (guest, #2285)
[Link] (8 responses)
Microsoft is the *master* of backward compatibility.
Posted Sep 2, 2009 5:44 UTC (Wed)
by PaulWay (guest, #45600)
[Link] (1 responses)
Have fun,
Paul
Posted Sep 2, 2009 8:07 UTC (Wed)
by zlynx (guest, #2285)
[Link]
For DirectX, I can say that my older games seem to work fine.
A Google search shows me people playing all sorts of Battlezone on XP, Vista and Vista64. It looks like there are patches.
Posted Sep 2, 2009 8:03 UTC (Wed)
by trochej (guest, #35052)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 2, 2009 14:34 UTC (Wed)
by jordanb (guest, #45668)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Sep 2, 2009 16:15 UTC (Wed)
by zlynx (guest, #2285)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 3, 2009 4:56 UTC (Thu)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 3, 2009 13:28 UTC (Thu)
by zlynx (guest, #2285)
[Link]
Posted Sep 6, 2009 11:46 UTC (Sun)
by trasz (guest, #45786)
[Link]
Posted Sep 3, 2009 13:09 UTC (Thu)
by gouyou (guest, #30290)
[Link]
It reminds me of this blog post from the Adobe/Linux/Flash guy: Welcome To The Jungle.
Posted Sep 1, 2009 21:57 UTC (Tue)
by rrdharan (subscriber, #41452)
[Link] (8 responses)
It's interesting that Linux users like to complain about the poor quality of proprietary software implementations for their platform. What vendor actually makes *good* proprietary software for Linux? All I ever see are complaints about Nvidia, complaints about VMware, complaints about Adobe, etc.
It's possible that all of the developers at all these companies are stupid or incompetent, but I'd put forth the claim that it's simply really hard to do quality *proprietary* software for Linux. Things change way too fast, APIs break all the time, and you pretty much have to rely on the community being able to fix your code, which they can't do, because it's proprietary.
It's at least a more reasonable and less offensive position to come out and just say that proprietary software sucks (for all the usual reasons/ethos/ideology etc.), but it's annoying to see the complaints directed at these vendors with the implicit assumption that they could somehow do better while retaining their current software distribution, development, and revenue models. I don't think they can.
Posted Sep 1, 2009 23:17 UTC (Tue)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (4 responses)
In this specific case I am talking about.. the state of Linux graphics support.. makes life hell for both open source and proprietary drivers equally. It's all graphics, games, media playback, that suffers. Not just proprietary.
Thats why I mentioned the situation with Gnomeshell and it's clutter dependency (which requires opengl) and people complaining about it. It should be a slam-dunk good thing, but it isn't because Linux graphics right now sucks.
To be fair things are improving quite a bit and I am hoping that Gallium design will bring the one biggest feature that Linux requires: constistantly.
They did it for Wifi with mac80211 and Network-Manager. They are getting there with PulseAudio... but right now graphics and GPU support is the major thing lacking.
I've mentioned it here before that GPU support is now a hard requirement for desktop. In the future it's only going to get worse if Linux does not improve.
Already Intel is introducing it's PineView stuff for it's next generation graphics stuff. That integrates the GPU into the CPU die. And guess what? I think it's PowerVR-based. So for some highly mobile Intel platforms you will require proprietary drivers just to use your CPU fully. ATI and Nvidia are going that direction also.
Nvidia currently sucks, but if your a gamer on Linux or you need to do heavy 3D stuff on Linux it's plainly obvious that anybody not using Nvidia proprietary drivers are second class citizens. The developers are all using Nvidia (more or less). Even with fully open source software.
I just feel that although Flash sucks a lot of it's problems are in fact Linux problems and they are getting blamed for things that are beyond their control.
Posted Sep 1, 2009 23:25 UTC (Tue)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (1 responses)
Nvidia has always been proprietary and seems to have no interest in budging
so if Intel is moving from open to proprietary the score is one moving each direction and one standing still. hardly a decisive movement in any direction.
if Intel is in fact not moving to proprietary drives (and given their history with linux and involvement with X.org development, this would seem like an odd thing for them to do), then the result is two of the big three moving to open drivers, and one staying with proprietary drivers.
Posted Sep 2, 2009 4:12 UTC (Wed)
by pabs (subscriber, #43278)
[Link]
http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/
Here is where intel stumbled WRT free graphics drivers:
Posted Sep 2, 2009 5:48 UTC (Wed)
by patrick_g (subscriber, #44470)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 2, 2009 19:58 UTC (Wed)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link]
But I think that it's PowerVR core, like the Poulsbo/GMA 500 stuff which required proprietary drivers for 3D support.
Posted Sep 1, 2009 23:46 UTC (Tue)
by jwb (guest, #15467)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 2, 2009 5:06 UTC (Wed)
by zlynx (guest, #2285)
[Link]
And Nvidia's Linux drivers are awesome. Rebuild your kernel without the 4K tiny stacks that were forced down everyone's throats, and their drivers will run great.
They always did for me.
The open source nv driver on the other hand, could make a snail look fast.
Posted Sep 2, 2009 9:12 UTC (Wed)
by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167)
[Link]
They suck on other platforms too. Microsoft's biggest obstacle for most of its existence has been its ISVs. DOS for example, was supposed to be (somewhat) platform independent, so that Microsoft could escape IBM and bring all the user's software with it. But ISVs wrote lots of software that depended on the raw PC hardware, and it was stuck there until the PC clone. I've used a machine that wasn't a PC clone, lots of programs just don't work, or don't work correctly.
It's actually got worse - as so often the user isn't the customer. More and more, ISVs produce software with sponsorship, advertising injection, or just plain malware included. The customer wants eyeballs, or machine cycles, the users are just stuck with it. So the ISV no longer even cares if users hate the software, it's more important to make it hard to remove than to make it worth keeping.
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Welcome To The Jungle
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
> (and OSX)... is presumably because Adobe doesn't see
> it to be in their best interest to offer any more than
> token support for non-Wintel platforms.
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
>>> Intel is introducing it's PineView stuff for it's next generation graphics stuff. That integrates the GPU into the CPU die. And guess what? I think it's PowerVR-basedCon Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Are you sure about that ?
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
Linux. There's plenty of other good proprietary software, like Eagle CAD,
Google Earth, etc. Even Adobe's other product, Reader, works well on Linux.
Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler
ISVs