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It says "lower spec"

It says "lower spec"

Posted Sep 1, 2009 16:48 UTC (Tue) by ncm (guest, #165)
In reply to: Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler by kerick
Parent article: Con Kolivas returns with a new scheduler

A scheduler optimized for netbooks and cellphones would not be such a bad thing.


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It says "lower spec"

Posted Sep 1, 2009 16:52 UTC (Tue) by alex (subscriber, #1355) [Link] (17 responses)

It's not going to get far on cellphones and notebooks without dynamic ticks. Spake the FAQ:

"Configure your kernel with 1000Hz, preempt ON and disable dynamic ticks."

It says "lower spec"

Posted Sep 1, 2009 18:34 UTC (Tue) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link] (14 responses)

Ya.. he needs to fix that. Otherwise it's very interesting.

Until the Linux kernel gets everything all situated out I think one of the big things that distros can probably do to improve user experience is provide Desktop/Multimedia optimized kernels.

Normally I am a big fan of 'do one thing and get it right before worrying about features' approach, but it's irritating to have to recompile my kernel to get proper responsiveness because the kernels from Debian are all optimized for server use.

$ grep -i preempt /boot/config-2.6.*
/boot/config-2.6.26-2-686:CONFIG_PREEMPT_NOTIFIERS=y
/boot/config-2.6.26-2-686:CONFIG_PREEMPT_NONE=y
/boot/config-2.6.26-2-686:# CONFIG_PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY is not set
/boot/config-2.6.26-2-686:# CONFIG_PREEMPT is not set
/boot/config-2.6.30-1-686:# CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU is not set
/boot/config-2.6.30-1-686:# CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU_TRACE is not set
/boot/config-2.6.30-1-686:CONFIG_PREEMPT_NOTIFIERS=y
/boot/config-2.6.30-1-686:CONFIG_PREEMPT_NONE=y
/boot/config-2.6.30-1-686:# CONFIG_PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY is not set
/boot/config-2.6.30-1-686:# CONFIG_PREEMPT is not set

I mean, seriously.. How long has Preempt support been around? *cry*

It says "lower spec"

Posted Sep 1, 2009 22:30 UTC (Tue) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link] (13 responses)

Has anyone ever filed a bug requesting that these options be enabled?

It says "lower spec"

Posted Sep 2, 2009 1:54 UTC (Wed) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link] (12 responses)

About a year or two ago I filed a Debian bug report asking for a desktop enabled version of the kernel and essentially received a "thanks but no thanks" closure message. :-/

Desktop Debian = Ubuntu

Posted Sep 2, 2009 4:55 UTC (Wed) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link] (9 responses)

I don't think that I know anyone who runs Debian on the desktop anymore. It seems most run Debian on servers and Ubuntu on the desktop, if they like Debian'ish systems.

Desktop Debian = Ubuntu

Posted Sep 2, 2009 5:43 UTC (Wed) by jordanb (guest, #45668) [Link] (3 responses)

Try meeting some more people. It's a whole world out there.

Desktop Debian = Ubuntu

Posted Sep 2, 2009 7:39 UTC (Wed) by patrick_g (subscriber, #44470) [Link] (1 responses)

>>> Try meeting some more people. It's a whole world out there.

What is your solution? Recompiling the kernel and lose all the advantages of a distribution kernel? Use a server optimized kernel on your laptop?

Desktop Debian = Ubuntu

Posted Sep 2, 2009 13:00 UTC (Wed) by nye (subscriber, #51576) [Link]

IIRC a couple of years back Con Kolivas had a feature to allow switching the scheduler at runtime, which was deemed a pointless feature and rejected.

Desktop Debian rocks

Posted Sep 2, 2009 8:32 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Alternatively, try finding out some hard data. For example, Debian's own popularity contest. Taking base admin packages as a baseline (83696), of which over 95% are regularly used, you may find that about 56% use X11 libraries regularly, about half installed desktop-base and 26% use metacity. GNOME is even more popular with 56% having installed gnome-keyring and 32% using it regularly. KDE is less popular with only 23% installing kdebase-data and 10% using any package regularly (interesting, didn't know there was such a disparity with GNOME), while XFCE shows up at 3.7%.

You might say that these are servers being admin'd graphically. Let us see typically desktop-y applications: quick browsing shows regular users of Firefox (iceweasel really) at 33%, libgstreamer at 27%, evince at 26%, libgphoto2 and openoffice both at 25%. To put these figures in perspective, Apache is at 44% and Samba at 27%.

There are lots of bias in the sample: only utter geeks would install popularity-contest, and only properly connected machines will show up. I would counter that both things pretty much describe Debian's audience. IMHO saying that 50% of Debian users have it as a desktop is a good estimation.

Desktop Debian = Ubuntu

Posted Sep 2, 2009 11:54 UTC (Wed) by N0NB (guest, #3407) [Link]

I prefer Debian over Kubuntu as my Kubuntu partition is still infested with GNOME nonsense. At least on Debian I can eliminate the GNOME stuff (or not install it in the first place) without breaking the distribution. That said, right now desktop effects with compositing are working much better in Karmic than Sid, both are up-to-date.

Desktop Debian = Ubuntu

Posted Sep 2, 2009 20:41 UTC (Wed) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link] (3 responses)

"I don't think that I know anyone who runs Debian on the desktop anymore."

Nice to meet you. I'm Branden.

Desktop Debian = Ubuntu

Posted Sep 2, 2009 20:47 UTC (Wed) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link] (1 responses)

But do I know you?

I mean, when I said it, I meant people I actually know in person and I know what they're running.

Now, as I don't make a habit of going around asking people if they're running Ubuntu or Debian or what, my sample size is about 5 people.

One of those I know used to run a Debian laptop and I *think* he is running Ubuntu now but possibly not. I know the other 4 are running Ubuntu.

Desktop Debian = Ubuntu

Posted Sep 2, 2009 21:01 UTC (Wed) by alex (subscriber, #1355) [Link]

Hey I suggested my other half install Debian on her old laptop as she wanted experiment with free software. I was slightly worried she would have issues with the wireless but it all installed and ran fine. I think Debian makes a fantastic desktop OS if your not concerned about the latest whizz bang graphics effects or media players. It's stable and lightweight and very developer friendly.

Desktop Debian = Ubuntu

Posted Sep 3, 2009 13:10 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Former DPLs need not apply ;}

(of course I'm running Debian on the desktop too, and adminning it remotely for my mum, who's in the same boat, and all she wants is something that Just Works and isn't virally infestable...)

It says "lower spec"

Posted Sep 2, 2009 9:45 UTC (Wed) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link] (1 responses)

Indeed, I should have searched before I posted.

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=311185 -- as of 2007, more testing for stability required; 'realtime patch' also mentioned, I have no idea if that still exists for current kernels or whether it's been merged

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=496871 -- request for benchmarks (along with "please stop waffling", great way to interact with users, kernel team...)

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=539209 -- filed recently (July 09) but no reply

Does anyone actually have any benchmarks demonstrating the efficacy of the pre-emption options?

It says "lower spec"

Posted Sep 2, 2009 16:57 UTC (Wed) by drag (guest, #31333) [Link]

It's hard to benchmark.

Technically a preemptive kernel will be slower then a non-preemptive one in most complex benchmarks. This is because going from process to process rapidly means more context changes and thus you lose out on cpu memory cache and all that.

But since the desktop is idle 99% of the time then it's easy to make the justification that it's worth it to say "Ya it takes a couple milliseconds longer to open a webpage, but this way I can do it without getting my music interrupted or keep my game/movie framerate high."

Intel developed a tool called latencytop that can be used to identify processes that are hogging the system and can causing usability or deterministic time problems.

Remember the point to having 'realtime' performance is not to make things _faster_ per say.. it's to make things more deterministic. So you know how long it will take to get something done. On a very hard-ish realtime system you can say "It's going to take a maximum of 30msec to accomplish X task" and you can depend on it. On a typical Linux server system it may take 5-10msec most of the time to do the same amount of work, but if something else is going on then it may take 500msec or more; You can't tell how long something is going to take, even though it's likely to get done faster on average.

This sort of trade off is what you need to keep your video smooth, games fast, music interrupt free, scientific measurements accurate, robotic assembly machines from zapping the wrong parts of a chassis, etc etc. Anytime you need to interact with the real world....

So ya.. benchmarks are very difficult and are skirting the issue.

It says "lower spec"

Posted Sep 2, 2009 13:41 UTC (Wed) by guus (subscriber, #41608) [Link] (1 responses)

Notice the line directly above the note about configuring for 1000Hz and disabling tickless:

"THESE ARE OPTIONAL FOR LOWEST LATENCY. YOU DO NOT NEED THESE!"

So with tickless kernels, you get a slightly less low latency, but it would work fine.

It says "lower spec"

Posted Sep 2, 2009 15:12 UTC (Wed) by rsidd (subscriber, #2582) [Link]

There is no changelog to the FAQ so I'm not sure, but I think that line is new. Ditto for the NUMA line. I'm sure Con Kolivas uses reasonably contemporary machines, even if he disdains optimising for machines with 4096 CPUs.


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