They could but the case will not go very far

Posted Jul 30, 2009 5:45 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252)
In reply to: Seems like a real problem at first sight by mikov
Parent article: A new GCC runtime library license snag?

Then, I sell the application to a proprietary company. It is till GPLv2, but the company owns the copyright.

Couldn't at that point the company sue Debian?

Not yet. Since there are reasonable interpretation which leaves the Debian in the clear the court will be very reluctant to give anything to the new company. But if/when Debian decide that it's illegal after all... then yes, the story will be finished: since Debian perceived this limitation as limiting (and this idea is present to the court) and new company can easily agree (it's in their interests) the case will have a merit. Here is what then lawer will say:

It generally turns out, as I know from having spent almost a quarter of a century now as a lawyer for hackers, that when hackers pretend to be lawyers, there are certain predictable formulations that they come to; they assume a degree of consistence in legal rules that is not achievable; this is a primary problem which occurs particularly in US focused conversation, such is that in Debian Legal, where the libertarian demand for intellectual consistency, and the hacker belief that laws are form of code that are executed without errors or ambiguities, joins together to create a particular frame of analysis for legal questions.

It doesn't work very well for me as a lawyer, I think it doesn't work very well for lawyers elsewhere in the World, because the one thing which lawyers around the world all share is an awareness of the squishiness of law, it is by no means the hard arthropod carapace for internal soft organs that non-lawyers have a tendency to assume it is.

When you start publicly discuss your rights which fall into the grey area it's very easy to lose them: court will use your own words against you! That's why law is usually discussed privately. This is especially true for patents but other aspects follow the same pattern...

They could but the case will not go very far

Posted Jul 30, 2009 16:35 UTC (Thu) by mikov (guest, #33179) [Link]

When you start publicly discuss your rights which fall into the grey area it's very easy to lose them: court will use your own words against you! That's why law is usually discussed privately. This is especially true for patents but other aspects follow the same pattern...

I have to tell you this is really scary ... (for lack of a better word). The notion that discussing your rights makes it easier to lose them...

I really liked the quote from the lawyer; thanks for posting it!

They could but the case will not go very far

Posted Jul 31, 2009 8:34 UTC (Fri) by mjthayer (guest, #39183) [Link] (1 responses)

>> Then, I sell the application to a proprietary company. It is till GPLv2, but the company owns the copyright.

>> Couldn't at that point the company sue Debian?

> Not yet. Since there are reasonable interpretation which leaves the Debian in the clear the court will be very reluctant to give anything to the new company.

I don't think that it is enough for Debian to be able to find a reasonable interpretation that speaks in their favour. I think that there is a problem if there is just a single reasonable interpretation which does *not* leave Debian in the clear. Debian don't want to be taken to court at all, not even if they are reasonably sure (you can never be more than reasonably sure) of winning, as it costs them time and money they would surely rather use for other things.

There are exactly one way to do this - and it's not what Debian wants...

Posted Aug 2, 2009 4:34 UTC (Sun) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

Debian don't want to be taken to court at all, not even if they are reasonably sure (you can never be more than reasonably sure) of winning, as it costs them time and money they would surely rather use for other things.

Then they should close the shop. It's more-or-less impossible to do so. Most programs out there infringe more then one patent, for example. Sure, these patents are bogus, but if you are determined to avoid court at all - you should remove all programs from distribution and since distribution with zero programs or files is pretty much useless it'll be the end for Debian...