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Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal)

Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal)

Posted May 30, 2009 23:08 UTC (Sat) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767)
In reply to: Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal) by mdipierro
Parent article: Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal)

That counts as a few short Twitter tweets which mention Web2Py, and a claim of a website using Web2Py for an app. But do you really want to compare Web2Py's usage with that of other frameworks? There are whole websites with apps devoted simply to keeping track of all the other sites that use some of the larger Python frameworks.

Python has traditionally had too many frameworks for its own good. (More web frameworks than keywords, as they say.) Fortunately, this new generation of frameworks, and TG's effective merging with Pylons, has enabled a much needed consolidation. Looking at Web2Py's feature set and style, it really looks like something that would be best merged with one of the more substantial frameworks. For Web2Py, I would say that Django would probably be the best fit. This generation could really do without all the "me too" frameworks of Python's past.

Anyway, the original comment was that the article only covered the big three, which are arguably really the big two, TG2 being a superset of Pylons. And covering the popular frameworks seems reasonable to me.


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Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal)

Posted May 31, 2009 7:55 UTC (Sun) by mdipierro (guest, #58848) [Link] (5 responses)

You told the previous user "you are the first person I've seen advocating Web2Py whose name was not Massimo Di Pierro". I just proved you are wrong.

No, web2py is not as popular as Django but it is at least 4 years younger and for reasons I do not understand there are lot of people like you who complain about it without having even tried it. Nevertheless there are 1000 users on the google group and they are growing exponentially.

Yes, Django, TG, and Pylons are excellent web framework but web2py is very different technically and philosophically. It is unlikely it will merge with them.

Web2py does provide a compatibility layer for Django models and SQLAlchemy models, and users are free to use any template language the are comfortable with. Anyway, we don't encourage any of this because of what they'd miss.

Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal)

Posted May 31, 2009 15:13 UTC (Sun) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link] (4 responses)

"""
You told the previous user "you are the first person I've seen advocating Web2Py whose name was not Massimo Di Pierro". I just proved you are wrong.
"""

I don't see how. He was, in fact, the the first person I had seen advocating Web2Py whose name was not Massimo Di Pierro. And I've been watching reasonable closely. Though admittedly, I did not have a Twitter crawler running specifically to look.

But this is getting silly.

"""
but web2py is very different technically and philosophically
"""

Not really that different. This is the mindset that fragmented the Python landscape so badly that the very arguably inferior Rails, running atop the abysmally slow Ruby, was able to waltz in and absolutely dominate over everything that Python had to offer. Projects felt that some minor difference made it imperative that they go their own way, and so everyone set about reinventing the wheel, over and over and over again in their own garages, dreaming of the day that their framework would one day come into its own as hoards of other people came to realize how wonderful their particular wheel was. And, of course, it never happened for any of them. Unless you count Zope. But that's a whole, sad, story in itself.

I'm being horribly un-PC, of course. The prevailing fashion in the Python web framework community these days does discourage one from criticizing anyone else's framework (unless, of course, one is Mark Ramm). But I am still encouraged by the cullings (e.g. Subway) and consolidation (e.g. TG folding into Pylons) that I have observed during this new generation. Continued insistence that Web2Py is so special that it just has to be yet another fragment on the landscape seems, to me, to be a remaining loose end.

Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal)

Posted May 31, 2009 16:06 UTC (Sun) by mdipierro (guest, #58848) [Link] (3 responses)

I am dropping this conversation. When you tell me that 1) you have tried web2py and 2) what specifically are your technical issues with it I may engage again. It is silly to say we (web2py community) should not have developed our own framework, Zope did, Django did, Pylons did, TG did, and so we did. You say you do not see differences between them. All I can say is look closer. I am sure the creator of other frameworks will agree with me on this one.

Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal)

Posted May 31, 2009 17:32 UTC (Sun) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link] (2 responses)

I have used Web2Py. Not for a live project, but for an eval project. It's OK. A lot more "magic" than I would be comfortable with for most of my real projects. And granted, if you did merge with another project, that would be a problem. I doubt much of the magic would be accepted into any of the major Python frameworks. Perhaps that is Web2Py's niche.

I have not said that I do not see the differences between the major Python frameworks and Web2Py. I said that they were not that different. (Bearing in mind the "magic" issue I just mentioned.)

Nor has it been my intent to criticize Web2Py technically.

Nor have I commented on your right to develop your own framework.

What I have commented upon is the effect that the fragmented framework landscape of Python's history has had on Python's success as a language for web development, even against what was arguably technically inferior competition.

"""
I am sure the creator of other frameworks will agree with me on this one.
"""

Really? At Snakes and Rubies one of the people you are claiming to speak for specifically said that he would like to see "maybe 2" major web frameworks in the Python world. That is, as opposed to the one major framework in the Ruby world. He was clearly against fragmentation.

Fortunately, we do not (yet) seem to be facing the fragmentation problem with the current generation of frameworks. Web2Py is a very distant 4th, and I have probably overstated the problem, as things currently stand.

At any rate, this thread was originally about the fact that only the major frameworks were covered in the article. And I still think that was a very reasonable decision on the part of the author.

Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal)

Posted May 31, 2009 21:11 UTC (Sun) by mdipierro (guest, #58848) [Link] (1 responses)

One of your assumptions is incorrect as shown here Anyway, I have nothing against technical comparisons and critiques. I complain that I do not see enough of them. Let me clarify that I we should not see Python (or Ruby) frameworks in competition with each other since their markets are correlated, not anti correlated. We are all better off if we do not fight and respect and acknowledge each other work.

Introducing Three Python Web Frameworks (Linux Journal)

Posted May 31, 2009 23:44 UTC (Sun) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link]

Yes, playing with Google Trends can be fun. I'm not sure how relevant. But fun:

http://tinyurl.com/mmwz2k

http://tinyurl.com/lnz2e6


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