SFLC: A Wake-Up Call for GPLv3 Migration
SFLC: A Wake-Up Call for GPLv3 Migration
Posted Apr 17, 2009 19:46 UTC (Fri) by drag (guest, #31333)In reply to: SFLC: A Wake-Up Call for GPLv3 Migration by alankila
Parent article: SFLC: A Wake-Up Call for GPLv3 Migration
The deal here is that while using open source you may run into patent issues.. but using closed source you run into patent issues, too.
So going on your own and not using open source software to accomplish the same goals is not going to get you any sort of immunity. And if your a smaller company using closed source is not going to make patent licensing less of a threat or more affordable then using open source.
So once you get people actually getting redistribution rights for GPLv3 software then that means people using that software can use it without threat of patent lawsuits that they may run into by using closed source software...
Get it? I know it's a bit convoluted, but I think it's logical.
And in situations were you end up with functionality that is covered by patents that can never really be negotiated with then that functionality will need to be removed from said open source software...
So another way to look at it you have 2 choices
1. You have GPLv2 software that is covered by patents that individuals have to pay in order to use, but you can't be sure.
2. You have GPLv3 software that your essentially immune from patent issues if you use ikt, to the best knowledge of the industry... and then you have functionality that patents cover that can't be taken care of universally then is broken off into 'patent encumbered' parts.
Similar to how patent-encrusted media codecs are broken off and away from 'Free software' programs, but can be purchased from people like Fluendo or added in a semi-legal fashion by end users.
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So lets say we live in a parrallel universe that is similar, but slightly different:
So lets assume that the only differences are that the Linux kernel is GPLv3 and Microsoft says that they are going to go aggressively after all Open source users.
So Microsoft sues TomTom for using FAT functionality and it's actually a strong court-proof patent.
1. TomTom tries to purchase blanket immunity for all Linux users, but it is to expensive.
2. Then TomTom goes to OIN, or other similar thing, and tries to form a 'FAT user group' that will try to get other industry members to join in and share the cost of licensing the FAT patent.
3a. If successful then people purchase a blanket license and everybody can use FAT support freely.
3b. If unsuccessful then the Linux developers are forced to eliminate FAT + long file name support from the kernel since nobody can legally redistribute it; the nuclear option has been deployed.
Then:
Then FAT + long filename support is created in the form of a open source FUSE file system module that can be purchased with the purchase costs covering the patent licensing fees. (something like this)
or
People create some sort of alternative.
This way people know that they can still use the Linux kernel without running into issues, and still can get FAT long file name support.
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But right now people might or might not be able to use the Linux kernel safely, knowing that some people are paying licensing fees to Microsoft and other people are not.
Posted Apr 17, 2009 20:57 UTC (Fri)
by alankila (guest, #47141)
[Link] (18 responses)
As you say: "[TomTom] tries to form a 'FAT user group' that will try to get other industry members to join in and share the cost of licensing the FAT patent." In some way, in this universe, TomTom is being forced to act like the patent troll and threaten others with Microsoft's patent infringement claims in order to gather money to pay Microsoft for good of everyone? I find this perverse.
I still think GPLv3 is reducing the choice for company that (for no fault of its own) infringes some patent. For this reason I think the original commenter's point stands.
Posted Apr 17, 2009 21:57 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link]
Yes it is perverse. But the legal environment in which USA based companies are forced to exist under cause these sorts of situations. It's certainly not by choice.
> I still think GPLv3 is reducing the choice for company that (for no fault of its own) infringes some patent. For this reason I think the original commenter's point stands.
It it is and it isn't.
Going back to the Tom-Tom situation. Right now Microsoft says that they are not going after 'open source'. But lets pretend that they are.
If you want to continue to have the ability to redistribute and allow people to freely re-use Linux kernel your going to have to remove the patent infringing portions of the code.. it does not make a difference if it is GPLv2 or GPLv3.
So the effect that the GPLv3 has on restricting choices is pretty mute. Any restriction that the GPLv3 would introduce is already established by US government law.
Posted Apr 18, 2009 23:56 UTC (Sat)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (16 responses)
Posted Apr 19, 2009 3:42 UTC (Sun)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link] (14 responses)
: - yes your honor... using Fat32, was an involuntary reaction following common practice in the market.. but we don't have any intention of licensing that obsolete crap... we've immediately substitute it with something much better after notice of alleged patent infringement... we seek settlement on possible damages never on licensing an outdated tech...
If a company cannot abide by those so simple facts, what is so bad of it going under ??... if it cannot replace Fat32 then it is not a tech company, and if it is not a tech company what has it to do with OSS and or Linux ?
http://ooy.cc/tomtom-surrenders-pays-microsoft-licensing-...
this is a trap... time to move to Linux 3 and shed all legacy FS and or other *mechanism* that make very little if any sense at all... LF should not be worried about supporting a FS that grand ma and pa use... or any other identical stuff that many patent trolls could eventually have a claim on...
NEW CODE IS MUCH MORE SAFE
So the legal trojan horse that M$ got by the way of Tom tom should refer only to the old Series 2.6... the new 3.0 should be free even if remains at GPL v2...
Posted Apr 19, 2009 8:36 UTC (Sun)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (13 responses)
It essentially would require a redesign of the hardware to use something other then mass storage, either that or adapt HFS+ or Ext2 for Windows compatibility... which is going suck even worse since it makes your stuff difficult to use compared to your competitors.
Probably the least painful way for Tomtom to go right now would be to drop long file name support...
Posted Apr 19, 2009 16:14 UTC (Sun)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link] (11 responses)
You are talking about tom tom hardware... that is their problem... because you answered it your self... ""HFS+ or Ext2 for Windows compatibility "" and the big question is if there is that compatibility needed in the first place... and if there is, remove it, that is, turn the OSS desktop the preference choice all over the world because that is the sane, safest and the one that delivers the large guaranty that it works...if you are defeated even before start, then there is no need to debate, everybody should line up to pay M$ license (watch me) because there is no choice according to you...
But i guess you are trying to talk about server deployments also...
But even there, you might offer that (Fat32) as a module... that is, remove it from kernel, incentive ppl to use ext2, which is much better... and talk about heaven to those *customers* that might want to use Fat32...
something like http://www.2x.com/
a solution that is not exactly pure terminal services but much better... and there is a X server for windows... there is no need to use citrix, as there is KDE4 for windows... if only Novell et all just could " dust" some of the scraps money that they seem willing to pay M$, into those projects... the all world would be much better...
Forget about M$... *Deal* with segregation like in 2X case, not compatibility...this movement... pardon me all... some times resembles sheep being driven by bate to the slaughter house...
Anyway, if a customer *still* wants Fat32 in spite the all much better alternatives... he should be able to download it as a module from some place where M$ patents are not valid... period
Costumers are not paying to be treated like childs, they too must take a little risk on the preference of their choices, LF and any other project shouldn't baby seat.. in favor of big houses... because those are infiltrated and in a narrow view out of their narrow business...
the prize big pot is exactly in desktop and webservices... the M$ model is stupid and outdated, because for a final user using it there must be 9 stealing... M$ model only works when you are an all over monopoly, because those stealing and using your product are those that not adopt anything else... so incentivate the stealing actually!...
In OSS that dosen't happen... compile install from online by the means of a free live CD/DVD is the best solution of a **WEBSERVICE** that might very well compel end users to pay something for a job that the large majority of themselves could not do on their own... and those system are better tunned for a particular HW then otherwise could be possible...
This is one example, but there are more webservices... and i can't see any of those *BILLIONS* of potential costumers ever be interested in Fat32
Posted Apr 19, 2009 17:47 UTC (Sun)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (10 responses)
USB mass storage with FAT is essentially univerally supported in every decent operating system since Windows 98 days and so is Fat32.
So what this gets you is instant compatibility with everybody's computer, anywere, running any operating system, with zero requirements to install any software.
You simply can't find anything that comes close to replacing that.
Posted Apr 19, 2009 19:38 UTC (Sun)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link] (9 responses)
You must be joking!
Market !??... again a joke, right !?... Linus in Finland doing an academia project, who would thought that it would end up like this ???...
Market is **MADE**, there is no "invisible stupid hand" or something of the kind... John Adams was a stupid ignorant imperialist with moral "marasm" of the *royal* ancient england... we could not make science of a wasp stinging in the point of his nose...
... and INFERIOR, corrupted and subservient markets like the M$ one, only stick because of all those players that are willing to bend over... and take it...
Look i'm not in a trolling mod, TomTom got bad luck... bad luck... in any war there are causalities... they don't have to pass their woes to no one... it will take time of course... but replacing an outdated tech like Fat32 is only a question of time... not why...
The market battle is an uphill one ?... and it hasn't been so so far ??
Linux and the all OSS movement should move forward, knowing that they have infiltrated enemies, and not worrying about TomTom... not that this is something "news" either, for not mention the SCO case...
And GPLv3 is a very valid option.period.
Posted Apr 20, 2009 1:29 UTC (Mon)
by xoddam (guest, #2322)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Apr 20, 2009 7:18 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (7 responses)
--- no, forget it, you wouldn't tell me anyway.
Posted Apr 20, 2009 18:10 UTC (Mon)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link] (6 responses)
Perhaps that is why there is some " who the well is this guy?", OSS is an institutionalized Industry movement now... speaking out overtly can get "labor" problems...
Posted Apr 20, 2009 21:02 UTC (Mon)
by xoddam (guest, #2322)
[Link] (5 responses)
It has nothing whatever to do with what you're trying to say, or your poltical or sexual orientation, or even that you're not "one of us". Indeed, on my part I haven't bothered to find out people's real names or broadcast mine, so a large minority are no more than old-fashioned nicknames on LWN. You are every bit a part of the LWN community, as much as nix or I or drag or quotemstr or bodan.
We have no desire to exclude you. We amuse ourselves at your expense, solely on the basis of the way you express yourself in English. It really is that hard to comprehend what you write (and it can't merely be a non-native-speaker issue because there are very many second-language English posters here and most of them get by just fine).
It's rude of us. And "it's funny because it's true". Keep trying!
Posted Apr 20, 2009 22:46 UTC (Mon)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Apr 21, 2009 2:00 UTC (Tue)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link] (2 responses)
The well with who i am or anybody else, what is important are ideas, facts and the TRUTH... TRUTH ABOVE ALL...
Well for the second part i'm sorry i've not the effluence of Shakespeare in the English language... but i could bet a million that i'm much better at English, and people understand me reasonably well *enough*, than you are at my native language "xoddam"...
Another complain is this engine at LWN... there should be a Re-editing facility... many "typos" got by and then is too late... and i've seen many ppl present apologies afterwards...
why haven't nobody complained strongly yet beats me!... really!?... or is it there only for subscribers !!?
Posted Apr 21, 2009 2:14 UTC (Tue)
by xoddam (guest, #2322)
[Link] (1 responses)
Provavelmente bem verdade :-)
but
> ... and people understand me reasonably well *enough* ...
may not be quite as true.
One difference is that I don't attempt to make myself understood in Portuguese (or any other language I'm not confident in). This may not be the only difference.
Posted Apr 21, 2009 2:29 UTC (Tue)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link]
Posted Apr 21, 2009 2:24 UTC (Tue)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link]
Its funny your future !??... its not the concern that appear on this thread!
what "us" are you talking about ?
sure what i can detect is irony, and i presume you are an OSS developer..
well i'm not... and i don't intent to be rude, but i believe you need *thousands* like me, to keep that "us" well and alive... to keep trying that you got a chance to exercise your art... don't you think so ?
Posted Apr 19, 2009 17:14 UTC (Sun)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link]
how does ppl think about doing business with a entity that uses the most ville and dirty anti competitive methods against you...
they would prefer to kill all those end user that might adopt desktop Linux... or even offering for free, if not allowing and incentive the stealing of their OS, and even install it themselfs... only to avoid having those users buying from the competition, namely from Linux... revealing the dirty scum they are...
If that wasn't very bad enough, they fund and those market analysis & such dark angels, that repeatedly invent reasons why Linux is not good on the desktop... forgetting to mention if it weren't for the free launch steal all you can... the world would had been 90 Apple and 3% windows instead and Linux could have been to 30% adoption now... if desktop linux is not a viable business model, even less is windows with all the stealing it involves... and only sustains because there is a monopoly.
yet there are ppl concerned with the successive and on purpose launched incompatibilities...an willing to pay!!!!!.... "baby face nelson" the ballmer must not be kicking chairs anymore, he must be laughing his guts out now... and planning where to introduce more incompatibilities next time so that the OSS Linux world can pay... next time i'll bring a carrot when talking to those no good air cutters OSS developers donkeys... says the "baby face" compulsively without being able to stop laughing...
Posted Apr 20, 2009 10:19 UTC (Mon)
by alankila (guest, #47141)
[Link]
Posted Apr 17, 2009 21:15 UTC (Fri)
by mmarq (guest, #2332)
[Link]
And the problem is right that... forget M$... considering TomTom case, isn't there something better to offer than FAT32... OF COURSE IT IS! NO?... but the market is "used" to FAT 32 and is a uphill battle to get something else adopted !
Hei!... but isn't also much more expensive to buy it and or organize all those "pressure groups" and all the politics behind it... me(?) CEO of Tom Tom and i would not pay 1 dime of license... it can only be a joke if its not a trap... there is so much better things to use than FAT32... they want to sue ?... fine!... next day i would be using something much better... cut all strength out of M$ arm... and forgetting about M$...
This are only issues because the plethora of dark angels out there have actually convinced ppl that Linux and OSS is only good for servers under the strong arm of a institutionalized industry umbrella... but they are not only convincing, they have other *infiltrations*... even OSS developers believe it... and the stupid M$ is like one of those stupid kids that are always stepping in front of the camera on purpose, trying to get attention with their hijacking deals, like the Novell one and others... they are, or can become quickly, totally irrelevants if ppl not only starts to belive in it...** BUT ACTUALLY MAKE THAT HAPPEN** by using extensively the best that OSS has, and try to be better than M$, even or specially on desktop and easy of use...
And its so easy to FORGET M$ IMO... they don't have the best business model, they have the OLD business model... and is very easy to make money out of desktop OSS, but that is not by selling a box full of SW in CD/DVDs... use *open source* instead to compile from online in end users machines... ppl don't want a particular distro, they want their own distro, which a quick glance at "distrowatch" can make clear as water, because they don't count the star number of personalized distros... sell end users there own distros... a big shop would appreciate for sure having its logo on the OS they use...
And GPLv3 is an indispensable tool for the job, the best defense so far IMHO.
SFLC: A Wake-Up Call for GPLv3 Migration
SFLC: A Wake-Up Call for GPLv3 Migration
If the distributor cannot negotiate a settlement then the patent holder loses all leverage. Going to court is not what patent bullies want. Even if it loses, the distributor will be forced to go out of business, which is bad for everyone. That is something that rubber tree planters have known for centuries.
No negotiation
No negotiation
And don't negotiate out side of what is strictly needed by the law procedure... the motto...
No negotiation
No negotiation
No negotiation
No negotiation
What does TomTom really bring new that ppl haven't knew already or suspected... is there a reason to bend over to M$ now... and not before??
No interpretation
No interpretation
No interpretation
No interpretation
No interpretation
afraid the Rorschach reference was forced on me at gunpoint).
No interpretation
No interpretation
> than you are at my native language "xoddam"...
No interpretation
No interpretation
what do you mean by "keep trying", i'm not selling nothing, because i can't possibly gain anything?... but YOU DO, no??...
No negotiation
No negotiation
SFLC: A Wake-Up Call for GPLv3 Migration