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The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

By Jonathan Corbet
January 13, 2009

Part of the Grumpy Editor series
When your editor posted the Grumpy Editor's next project, he certainly did not anticipate that it would take more than a year and a half for the next installment to be written. Or that, even after all that time, the project of moving LWN's accounting from proprietary software to free software would be incomplete. But the world is full of surprises, even in places where surprises are most unwelcome - like accounting. Happily, your editor's surprises do not involve counterparty risk, credit-default swaps, or anything else of that sort.

So why has this project taken so long? What it came down to is that your editor concluded that he was not sufficiently qualified to rip out a functioning accounting system and replace it with something out of a CVS server somewhere. There is simply too much to know about how the accounting system ties into the company's operations, how our accountant uses it, and how it helps keep the tax agencies happy and the company's officers out of jail. That latter point became especially relevant as LWN's longtime bookkeeper and occasional contributor Dennis Tenney headed off to pursue other opportunities, leaving your editor to take up the legally-liable Treasurer position.

In other words, swapping out the accounting system isn't something to be done on a whim, like, say, putting an -rc1 development kernel onto the production server. Whatever is there has to work. So your editor concluded that the first step in this process was to take over the existing system and come to understand it well enough to be able to properly think about a replacement. After closing out the 2008 books, your editor is able to come to a preliminary conclusion: it is almost possible for a small business to dump a system like QuickBooks and use a free alternative. Almost.

There is an interesting gap in the free software community's offerings in this area. A very small business - one involving a sole proprietor, for example - can use a tool like GnuCash to great effect. Almost everything which is needed is there, and most functions work quite well. On the other hand, a very large operation wanting to install a full-scale ERP system has a wealth of options: Compiere, Adempiere, various packages based on OFBiz, and more. If your operation is willing and able to dedicate full-time staff to developing a customized ERP system and keeping it going, there are plenty of frameworks to start with. These systems are not drop-in tools usable by a small business, though.

Small businesses occupy a niche between the sole proprietor and the massive enterprise. At this level, there's not a whole lot available from the free software community. The most active projects appear to be SQL-Ledger, its fork LedgerSMB, and PostBooks. All three work on top of a PostgreSQL database; SQL-Ledger and LedgerSMB are web-based, while PostBooks is a Qt application. Your editor's sense, at this point, is that PostBooks looks like the most advanced, most ambitious, and most actively-developed project among these three. It is, however, tricky to get running, its development model appears to be strongly cathedral-style (there isn't even a project mailing list), and it is distributed under the questionably-free (though OSI-certified) CPAL license. PostBooks has the look of a classic piece of corporate-controlled open source.

Any of the packages listed above (and GnuCash too) will do basic double-entry accounting. They can produce pie charts, reconcile accounts, and so on. Since they use PostgreSQL with an open (if sometimes poorly documented) schema, integrating them with the rest of the business should be relatively straightforward. They are, in essence, almost everything which is needed to enable a business to move away from a package like QuickBooks.

The key word is "almost." As far as your editor can tell, there are two crucial bits missing. The key word is "almost." As far as your editor can tell, there are two crucial bits missing: tax form printing and accountant interfaces.

On the first point: this is the time of year when LWN produces 1099 forms for each of its guest authors - at least, for those who pay their tribute to the U.S. A related form (1096) then goes off to the Internal Revenue Service so they can ensure that none of our authors tries to hide the vast amounts of money we pay them. A tool like QuickBooks tracks payments to outside contractors, and will happily print the requisite forms onto special stock which can be purchased, at exorbitant prices, directly from the application itself. There is no equivalent functionality in the free packages, currently.

In truth, this is an area where free software tends to struggle. The printing of tax forms is just not a task which inspires hackers; it is tedious, subject to highly finicky requirements, and is, for all that it may be considered necessary, somewhat distasteful. This work must be revisited every year as the requirements are subject to the whims of legislators and regulatory agencies. And, lest that challenge seem insufficient, one should also bear in mind that every country's requirements are different, so all this work must be repeated many times over.

Creating this kind of code (and keeping it current) is not fun, it requires some specialized domain knowledge, and it can carry certain kinds of legal liabilities. So it's no wonder that a hacker with some free time will, upon considering this kind of task, usually decide to work on enhancing that Klingon translation of OpenOffice.org instead. The Klingons tend to be more forgiving of bugs.

On the accounting side, the problem gets even worse. A typical business accountant uses proprietary software which, in turn, contains a great deal of knowledge of the tax code. Not all countries have a tax system as twisted and complex as the U.S., but the problem is never simple. Your editor believes that it would be entirely reasonable to require governments to provide free software which interprets its tax codes for ordinary citizens, along with a guarantee that, as long as said citizens fed honest numbers to the system, they would not be subject to penalties if the resulting tax calculation were incorrect. In the real world, though, the job of providing such software falls to companies with a squad of on-staff tax lawyers and a firmly proprietary approach to software distribution. That situation does not appear to be likely to change anytime soon.

For the accountant to use his proprietary tools to come to conclusions about a company's tax situation, he must be able to enter quite a bit of data about where the company's money came from and how it was used. There are a couple of ways in which this can be done: (1) it can be manually entered, at great expense to the company involved, or (2) it can be directly imported from the company's accounting system for free. Small companies tend to be quite sensitive to things involving increased expenses, especially when the expense is for an already unwelcome task like tax compliance. So there is great value in having an accounting system which can export data directly to an accountant's tax preparation tools.

In an ideal world, there would be a nice, XML-based format involving large numbers of acronyms which would make this interoperability possible. In the real world, these formats are proprietary and undocumented. So exporting data to the accountant is not really possible with free tools. And that is the single biggest roadblock to the use of free accounting software in any company whose accounts are even remotely complex. Until free programs can export something which looks like the QuickBooks "accountant's copy," they will not be usable in this context.

What makes this situation even more sad is that, as your editor can now attest through painful experience, QuickBooks really does not have much else to offer. Its interfaces are tedious and error-prone; in many ways, free software has done a much better job. As an example, GnuCash will happily import account data from a bank or credit card company, apply default accounts (categories) learned from experience, filter out any duplicate entries, and allow the user to verify and adjust the whole operation before applying it. QuickBooks is, shall we say, nowhere near as accommodating. Your editor ran into a bug (in QuickBooks 2009) which causes the import operation to fail halfway through; a quick search turned up reports of that bug from 2003. There are reasons why any discussion of QuickBooks harps on the need to perform backups frequently - every fifteen minutes or so is good. Your editor has had to restore those backups many times; meanwhile, use of GnuCash over several years has never, ever resulted in a corrupted database.

What it comes down to is that we have solved at least 95% of this problem, and we have done a better job than the proprietary software companies have. But the remaining gaps are crippling, and they are hard to fill. Accounting file formats are more obscure than, say, document formats; there is no effort to create an OpenLedger specification. Any attempt to create files in those formats from free software is likely to involve reverse engineering efforts, and that will be an error-prone process in an area where errors are most unwelcome. So we may well be stuck with proprietary accounting software for some time yet.

That said, your editor does not intend to give up. There will be ongoing discussions with the accountant and continued tracking of free accounting system projects. The free software community has solved no end of difficult problems over the years; we should be able to find a way to take care of this one too. Stay tuned; hopefully the next update will not be so long in coming.


to post comments

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 13, 2009 17:41 UTC (Tue) by awolfe (guest, #7092) [Link] (2 responses)

Have you looked at webERP - a PHP/MySQL package that is GPL-licensed and production stable?

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 0:28 UTC (Wed) by elanthis (guest, #6227) [Link] (1 responses)

The UI is clunky and slow. Way too much clicking and navigating, and its reliance and generating PDFs for output (instead of generating inline images or using <canvas>) make actually getting at reports and information waaaay too cumbersome.

The site advertises "minimal use of JavaScript for browser compatibility" which is total BS. Using a JavaScript framework (e.g. jQuery) would allow webERP to get a far more responsive UI (less full page reloads) and make it more visually appealing without sacrificing any browser compatibility. Welcome to 2009. ;)

The webERP feature set is certainly impressive though. Really impressive. It does still lack the tax form support the article author was lamenting over, however.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 6:48 UTC (Wed) by awolfe (guest, #7092) [Link]

Clunky? Yes. Slow? Not if set up properly.

They have some AJAX right now in CVS, and they are further extending it. "To javascript or not to javascript" was apparently a contentious issue for awhile. I think they settled on using the Prototype JS framework. I don't know when they are planning to release it.

WebERP has a nice feature set and a solid feel. There is an active development and user community. And they have real accountants on the core team. A comment on another thread suggested tackling the tax form issue by setting up report templates that output onto preprinted forms. There may already be some usable templates floating around for a starting point.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 13, 2009 18:00 UTC (Tue) by jdahlin (subscriber, #14990) [Link]

Stoq perhaps?

http://www.stoq.com.br/ (half-translated site, but there's a livecd with english localization)

Primarily aimed towards Point Of Sale though.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 13, 2009 18:43 UTC (Tue) by DG (subscriber, #16978) [Link]

We [Pale Purple] are in exactly the same situation - when we setup our company, we didn't know anything about accounting, and spent some time rummaging through various open source packages - none appeared to be easy enough to use, give us the confidence that it would work properly for the UK system etc and appeared actively supported.

So, like you, we're stuck with Quickbooks. We'd love to move onto something else... but for the cost of £80-100 per year, any move needs to be almost painfree (i.e. no manual data entry) and the application needs to be able to understand VAT and payroll 'stuff'.

(Payroll wise there is http://www.paythyme.co.uk - but it doesn't integrate with Quickbooks).

I really don't like Quickbooks, and it's removal would allow our company to be 100% OSS...

file formats

Posted Jan 13, 2009 20:14 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

in practice, most banks have a way to export files into comma delimited files that can be read by quicken, so if you can find out how to get that from your bank you should be in fairly good shape. they also will output quicken and microsoft money formated files directly (these files are a proprietary format, but they have been reverse engineered long ago)

the other option is that most banks have a XML interface to allow software to query your account (you have to trust your software with your banking credentials), the interface even has public documentation (search for OFX)

how you find this information for your bank is the problem, but it's not quite as bad as you indicate

file formats

Posted Jan 13, 2009 20:17 UTC (Tue) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (2 responses)

You misunderstood. Importing data from banks is relatively easily done; tools like GnuCash (and many others) handle it nicely. They do a better job of it than QuickBooks does. But those are not the formats expected by the tax preparation tools used by professional accountants. That is where the problem lies. It's an export problem, not an import problem.

file formats

Posted Jan 13, 2009 20:37 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

hmm, I'm a bit surprised at this. I would have thought that that software would be able to read the quicken files (if nothing else), and if it's been reverse engineered enough to read the files it should be able to create suitable files as well.

besides being a good idea for compatibility, it would also be a good idea in terms of avoiding product lock-in (since almost everything can import your data from quicken, being able to export to quicken would let you migrate your data from one package to another)

if nothing else, this would let you use the open software for your day-to-day activities and then export to quickbooks for the tax stuff (yes you end up dealing with the proprietary software, but you are able to avoid it's limitations most of the time)

file formats

Posted Jan 15, 2009 22:35 UTC (Thu) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

I would have thought that that software would be able to read the quicken files

Quicken files such as you would use to import bank account information from your bank to Quicken do not carry the same kind of information that your accountant needs to determine how much tax your business owes. So I don't think this format has any bearing on the difficulty in substituting another bookkeeping program for Quickbooks.

So start a project!

Posted Jan 13, 2009 21:31 UTC (Tue) by boog (subscriber, #30882) [Link]

Well, the problem has been identified or at least highlighted by our Editor: there needs to be a free and open standard for defining the data required to process tax returns.

The solution is of course to start a project. I'm not volunteering :-) But there is quite a large community of business and accounting packages developing. Maybe now they've read it here, they can get together and produce a sane and general specification. No doubt it will be better than QuickBooks' output. Somebody will start to use it eventually - either an existing tax accountant's program or a free replacement.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 13, 2009 21:36 UTC (Tue) by nas (subscriber, #17) [Link] (1 responses)

Jon, I feel your pain. Account software universally sucks, AFAICT. I spent many hours in December fighting with Quickbooks and AgExpert Analyst. These are both expensive, commercial packages. First, the import/export capabilities are essentially non-existent. Second, they often make what should be simple operations impossible or near-impossible.

The least aggravating tool I have found so far is John Wiegley's Ledger. It is perhaps not right for you since it doesn't know anything about tax forms or laws. It is just a lean and mean text based double entry accounting system (mechanism, not policy).

John's ledger program has some quirks and I'm hoping that BeanCount will become a usable replacement. Unfortunately it seems like the hg code is broken (at least it didn't work for me). Martin Blais has a nice document explaining why double-entry accounting is goodness.

I have an idea of writing a GUI for basic transaction entry using Tkinter and making liberal use of the autocomplete entry field. Autocomplete greatly speeds up data entry if used well. Need more hours in the day. ;-)

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 30, 2009 3:38 UTC (Fri) by Simon80 (subscriber, #50887) [Link]

"I have an idea of writing a GUI for basic transaction entry using Tkinter and making liberal use of the autocomplete entry field."

Have you tried GnuCash?

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 13, 2009 22:15 UTC (Tue) by ibukanov (subscriber, #3942) [Link] (6 responses)

> The printing of tax forms is just not a task which inspires hackers

Once in 1998 I was involved in a web project where one of the requirements was printing of some forms from a browser. The solution was to generate PDF using server-side JavaScript. Since the resulting PDFs must be small for quick downloads over slow modems, it was not possible to use scanned images of the original forms.

So we ended up using a ruler and magnifying glass to measure all the lines and fonts to reconstruct the forms more-or-less precisely using PDF's vector graphics and default fonts. That was rather challenging!

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 13, 2009 22:35 UTC (Tue) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (3 responses)

by the way, the IRS has a few different formats of forms that they accept. back in the days of dot-matrix and daisy-wheel printers it was already possible to print forms acceptable to the IRS.

they don't have to be identical to the paper forms (especially in terms of shading, boxes to fill in, etc) they need to be in the right order with the data clearly displayed.

finding out exactly what is acceptable requires talking to the IRS (with the corresponding communications effort), while duplicating the paper forms can be done by anyone (with considerably more technical effort to duplicate things that probably aren't significant anyway)

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 13, 2009 23:49 UTC (Tue) by iabervon (subscriber, #722) [Link] (2 responses)

1099s are a bit more challenging than things like 1040s because you have to give the 1099 to the people you paid, and they have to be able to fill in their 1040 based on it. The dot-matrix form is fine for the IRS, but individual taxpayers will be somewhat less happy with it; I've gotten a 1040 in that format, and it's kind of like reading a CSV file, except without any headings, and without the commas. I was able to photocopy it and mail it to the IRS, but I wouldn't have been able to fill out other forms with information from it.

On the other hand, the IRS doesn't even get the 1099s in general, and they've only got a few numbers, so you could probably make a sufficient 1099 in HTML without any particular difficulty.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 15, 2009 18:48 UTC (Thu) by kingdon (guest, #4526) [Link] (1 responses)

My last first-hand experience as a payer was in 1999 or so, but from a quick web search the following doesn't appear to have changed. (1) the payer does file a copy of every 1099 with the IRS (the US tax agency), and (2) they need to be on special machine-readable paper, the background of which is printed in red ink. If you just have a few, go to an office supply store, buy said red forms, and fill them out with a pen. If you have more, well, this is why all this discussion of software and so on.

1099

Posted Jan 23, 2009 23:29 UTC (Fri) by dfsmith (guest, #20302) [Link]

The IRS will mail 1099 forms to you for free if you order them on their web site. Surprisingly, they're quite efficient.

You will need an impact printer or well-limbered hand to fill them out though! (We send out fewer than 20 a year.)

I also reviewed the open-source and proprietary accounting programs. I settled on Quickbooks 95 (yes, 1995!) because...

  • It's quick (vendor lookup, check writing).
  • It has a very good report browser (if limited report generator).
  • The '95 version will not connect to the internet or try to update itself. (The forms for non-profits don't change much year-to-year.)
  • It will run in read-only mode under Wine (on my laptop, for when presenting the books).
  • Peachtree didn't work on my XP machine. (It's an accounting program: it shouldn't need complex installation tricks. That means something bad is going on in the background.)
  • It takes the right attitude. (I don't like accounting. The OSS versions seem to have been written by people who do enjoy it and expect us to enjoy it too.)
  • It hasn't crashed or corrupted my data yet (two years).

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 15:29 UTC (Wed) by pzb (guest, #656) [Link]

I've had the same experience. We had someone who had the full time job of taking paper forms and using a ruler to convert them to electronic format. Given, this was ten years ago, and things have gotten better, but even so, the IRS, 50 states, plus local forms means hundreds of changes per year.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 15, 2009 2:54 UTC (Thu) by Tara_Li (guest, #26706) [Link]

This problem actually surprises me - the IRS provides all of its forms in PDF (most of them fillable-in...) I'm not sure what would be involved in parsing and letting the accounting system fill them in, but shouldn't be too bad if PDF is still as open as its supposed to be.

I think a lot of the forms are provided in SGML or XML, too.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 13, 2009 23:07 UTC (Tue) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] (3 responses)

http://sourceforge.net/projects/drorit

Should be able to provide valid Israeli tax reports. The author has spent quite some time with his accountant getting it this way. He now provides it generally as free software, but also provides payed support and hosted installations.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 15, 2009 9:14 UTC (Thu) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link] (2 responses)

I asked the author of this software for his comment on the article. Aparantly he was not able to login. Anyway, one extra detail in his mail reply:

In Israel there should be an open and unified reporting format. Drorit has been supporting it since the beginning of 2008.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 16, 2009 6:11 UTC (Fri) by roelofs (guest, #2599) [Link] (1 responses)

I asked the author of this software for his comment on the article. Aparantly he was not able to login.

Use the URL generated by the "send a subscriber link" button (or whatever it's called).

Greg

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 16, 2009 11:52 UTC (Fri) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link]

Naturally I have. This is exactly what they are for.

New kid on the block

Posted Jan 13, 2009 23:11 UTC (Tue) by rasjidw (guest, #15913) [Link]

One that I'm keeping my eye on is FiveDash. It is GPL 3, looks like it is being actively developed, and is currently at version 0.8. It is Australian based (which suits me since I'm also in Australia) but may need some tweaking for other countries. However, it is written in Python so said tweaking should not be too difficult.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 13, 2009 23:45 UTC (Tue) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link] (4 responses)

Sometimes, when an obstacle seems impossible to overcome it's worth looking at it from a completely different angle.

Maybe the right angle to look at this from is the accountant's. Suppose you're an accountant. If I'm starting a new business I have no reason to choose you over another accountant. You both want me to use QuickBooks, which sucks. But suppose you can make it possible for me to use GnuCash. GnuCash sucks much less than Quicken, maybe not enough that I'd pay extra, but enough that I would hire you rather than the other accountant who requires QuickBooks.

In the US, what are the legal and practical restrictions on locality of your accountant? Would an accountant who took GnuCash files as "accounts" be able to work with companies anywhere in the state? More widely? Less widely? Because if we imagine one accountant is handling 50% of the small Free Software businesses in California, that's a lot of work == income. It seems like it would be worth going to some trouble to secure that work. And if QuickBooks sucks as much as I think it does, it wouldn't just be Free Software people who'd want to switch once they saw it worked.

Am I barking up entirely the wrong tree here ?

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 0:24 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] (3 responses)

Go back and read the article again, focusing on the section about the very specific, finicky legal requirements for government tax forms. Where the existing free software tools aren't able to comply with the law, something else needs to be used. Trying to bludgeon accountants into accepting the free formats would address the accountant interface problem (though why not support the data formats they are used to?), but it doesn't solve the tax-form problem.

Perhaps someone could persuade the FSF that investing in tools that would allow small businesses to go 100% free software would be a good idea. They tend to take the unglamorous bits when no one else will.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 2:09 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

it's not that free software tools aren't _able_ to comply with the law (at least in most cases)

it's that free software tools don't _try_ to comply with the law (again, in most cases), they don't break the laws, they just don't provide these features.

One solves the other

Posted Jan 15, 2009 3:37 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link] (1 responses)

Whatever the accountants are using must have solved the tax form problem, so the remaining problem is solved once the accountant can import your data. The accountants, then, need to bludgeon their own software suppliers into accepting some sort of open format. It's conceivable that they do already, but we just don't know about it, and the accountants don't know either because they never asked.

One solves the other

Posted Jan 15, 2009 23:10 UTC (Thu) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

Yes, the article is a little confusing in that it gives as one reason LWN can't use free accounting software that LWN wants a separate accountant to figure LWN's taxes. The article gives as another reason that LWN couldn't print tax forms with the free software. Seems to me, that's not an issue if LWN uses a separate accountant, so I don't know why the article brings it up.

I once tried to hire a professional tax accountant for a business, but he did business only with clients who used Quickbooks, and the business had a custom bookkeeping system that integrated with several other business systems.

I thought it was strange for him to limit his business (remember, we never got to discussing price), but he said there was a shortage of accountants (i.e. surplus of Quickbooks-based clients) in the world at that time, which made it impossible for an accountant to profitably do anything else.

I presume that shortage eventually resolved itself, which means it's conceivable that a few accountants in a place such as California could achieve an equivalent economy of scale working with free software clients.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 1:59 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (1 responses)

Do any of the fit-for-purpose, proprietary accounting systems run on Linux/Unix?

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 4:51 UTC (Wed) by k8to (guest, #15413) [Link]

I'm not sure what fit-for-purpose means. Do you mean the incredibly expensive hard to deploy ones?

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 4:52 UTC (Wed) by mcopple (subscriber, #2920) [Link] (4 responses)

FWIW, it really isn't necessary to write code to build tax forms (for the U.S., at least). All the tax forms are freely available from the IRS, and several office supply stores sell laser-compatible forms (that usually come with their own primitive Windows-based software to fill in).

When I was treasurer of a small church, I used this proprietary software to build my 1099's and my W-2's. I printed a report off of Quickbooks and used that to fill in the boxes in the software, loaded the forms into my laser printer, and printed.

Therefore, all we really need to do is figure out what items need to go into each checkbox, and how to print those items in the appropriate spot on the form, using our own free software instead of the proprietary utility sold with the forms. No one needs to design a fully-functioning, printable 1099; they only need to design a template that can print the data on a pre-printed 1099 form. That is much easier than designing a form from scratch.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 5:47 UTC (Wed) by thyrsus (guest, #21004) [Link] (1 responses)

Seconded. The most common U.S. tax forms don't change that much or that often, and they're available as PDFs. The North Carolina tax forms are available as PDF as well. Once upon a time, not having easy access to a typewriter, I filled out some North Carolina forms by hand editing the Postscript version of them to fill in the blanks with my information.

(N+1)^N Forms for Small Business.

Posted Jan 15, 2009 2:23 UTC (Thu) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

Its the vastness of the forms that makes the issue a hard one compared to Klingon ports of OpenOffice.

1) Country Level Forms (US, Canada, UK, etc).
2) State Forms
3) County/City Forms

While the forms do not change a lot, there are constant changes in what new forms and parts must be counted or may not be counted per area. And then you get into cross filing. A person works for you in a state. You may need to collect sales tax from every sale in that state because you have a point of presense in that state (while in another state you might not).

Or the fact that if you provide a cell-phone to an employee that is considered a taxable benefit which requires you to add that to certain forms and not others.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 17:06 UTC (Wed) by cry_regarder (subscriber, #50545) [Link] (1 responses)

There is a discussion at the Open Tax Solver (OTS) forum on these issues:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?thread_id=1217472&...

With automatic PDF tag extraction and PDF form filling combined with the OTS logic, I think the tools are in place now to attack the tax form problem.

Cry

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 14, 2009 21:45 UTC (Wed) by adamgundy (subscriber, #5418) [Link]

the sourceforge thread eventually leads to this: http://www.myown1.com/linux/pdf_formfill.shtml which is a nice description of how to use pdftk to fill in the fields on a 1040.

Pen and paper?

Posted Jan 14, 2009 11:22 UTC (Wed) by yodermk (subscriber, #3803) [Link]

Possible solution to the tax form problem for small businesses without too many accounts -- pen and paper! Just get same blank 1099s and fill them out with a pen!

Not too elegant, but if you only have a few (say, less than 20 or 30), it's not the end of the world to do it that way.

Heck, I've done entire 1040s + several schedules with pen and paper for 3 or 4 of the last 10 years.

Online accounting?

Posted Jan 14, 2009 12:53 UTC (Wed) by nhippi (subscriber, #34640) [Link] (1 responses)

Is there any reason why a desktop application is necessary? Seems like This would sound like a case for a online service. You are already taking data from one proprietary online service (network bank), setting everything it up to be sent to your business accountant's proprietary tools. Unlike, say CAD apps, the UI appears like something that can be easily represented as HTML (with perhaps some javascripting :P).

Online accounting?

Posted Jan 14, 2009 13:24 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

I actually looked into online accounting offerings as a possible solution. QuickBooks has an online version, for example. There are, though, some problems with that approach:

  • The QuickBooks offering requires ActiveX and Internet Explorer, and it thus still Windows-only. Didn't seem like much of an improvement.

  • The integration problem remains: for whatever reason, I've had a really hard time finding volunteers to hand-enter thousands of subscription sales every year.

  • With online offerings you add the concern of putting all of your company's crucial financial records into somebody else's hands. You have to trust them to safeguard that data, to keep the servers running, etc.

The end result of all that is that online didn't seem like the way to go.

I am very grumpy right now

Posted Jan 15, 2009 15:11 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link] (2 responses)

We use Ledger-SMB, a fork of SQL-Ledger. It's basically terrible software, but it comes the closest to doing what we need.

Unfortunately, today I tried to update an invoice. I got an SQL error and the invoice disappeared from the system! Needless to say, an accounting system that eats entries does not inspire confidence. :-(

I am very grumpy right now

Posted Jan 15, 2009 16:39 UTC (Thu) by hippy (subscriber, #1488) [Link] (1 responses)

May be there needs to be lobbying for electronic submission rather than printing stuff on dead trees.

Some tax filing in the UK can now be done electronically. FileThyme (http://www.paythyme.com/) from the guys as Clockwork Software can submit these and it is GPL.

Richard

Electronic tax filing instead of software to print forms

Posted Jan 15, 2009 23:25 UTC (Thu) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

May be there needs to be lobbying for electronic submission rather than printing stuff on dead trees.

Most income tax filing in the US is electronic now, and I'm sure the number of cases that can be filed electronically grows every year. LWN-size businesses are some years off.

What is missing is the ability for a taxpayer to file electronically directly with the tax collector. Instead, the tax collector certifies, at great expense, a few tax preparers to file electronically on behalf of taxpayers. Those preparers in turn accept electronic submissions of various kinds from taxpayers.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 15, 2009 23:40 UTC (Thu) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link] (2 responses)

Your editor believes that it would be entirely reasonable to require governments to provide free software which interprets its tax codes for ordinary citizens, along with a guarantee that, as long as said citizens fed honest numbers to the system, they would not be subject to penalties if the resulting tax calculation were incorrect.

Bah. The citizen should send all the data to the government and the government should send the citizen a bill. The citizen can appeal if he doesn't think the bill is right, but as long as he pays at least what he was billed (and submitted honest data), he can't be penalized.

In fact, in the case of personal income tax, the US government has been poised to do that for a couple of decades, and I can't understand what's taking so long. In 1985, the head of the US income tax agency testified before Congress that in 90% of all cases, the agency already knows how much tax the taxpayer owes when it gets the filing (because of information filed by third parties). He said he hoped to implement a billing system in the next few years. The taxpayer would get a complete copy of his tax filing, as seen by the government, and he could either send a check or file one of his own instead. I don't know what happened.

As it stands, the government forces millions of people to expend the time, money, and stress of figuring their taxes, then looks over the figures for about a millisecond and says, "that's right." I have personally been highly irritated to have the opposite happen: I get a letter back from the tax collector saying, "Nope. What you really owe is X." They were right, of course. I guess I should be glad they disclosed the number X instead of just telling me the general location of my error and having me try again.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 19, 2009 14:56 UTC (Mon) by TRS-80 (guest, #1804) [Link]

In Australia the tax office provides a gratis Win32 application for individuals, and this year introduced pre-filling from third-party data. It was remarkably painless, apart from having to boot my laptop into Windows, as the pre-filling didn't work under Wine. They also guarantee against penalties in case of errors in the software, which is something they do for the paper form as well.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 25, 2009 20:03 UTC (Sun) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link]

Think rent seekers, ie. accountants.

Derek

Tax form printing: Can't you just use LaTeX..?

Posted Jan 18, 2009 9:22 UTC (Sun) by i3839 (guest, #31386) [Link] (4 responses)

Why not have a template file for each specific form with placeholders for input data? Then LaTeX takes care of the specific formatting and it's easy to fill in forms with a simple script (e.g. replacing the placeholders with the actual values with sed or so.) If the placeholder tags are the same all software can stay the same except for the tex file, which will be form specific. Or use postscript directly if that turns out better. It doesn't look like a huge or complex problem all in all (but I've never seen those forms, nor do I know anything about USA's tax system).

As for the interface to the accountant, do you need one? An accountant I mean? Why not have no accountant, surely it costs a lot money for little gain?

Tax form printing: Can't you just use LaTeX..?

Posted Jan 23, 2009 13:58 UTC (Fri) by markhb (guest, #1003) [Link] (3 responses)

Trust me, the cost of paying an accountant is worth it relative to the cost of incorrectly filing with the IRS. Not to mention that you really don't want to foul up the filing of your contributors' tax documents; that's a good way to lose high-quality content fast. I've heard that in here the US the majority of individual returns go through a paid tax preparer now.

Tax form printing: Can't you just use LaTeX..?

Posted Jan 24, 2009 1:17 UTC (Sat) by i3839 (guest, #31386) [Link] (2 responses)

That sounds awfully scary to me. Is it that hard or tricky to fill in tax forms over there? And one mistake gets you in deep trouble instead of just needing to pay the difference?

I can understand that to avoid the paperwork hassle people just let some specialised company do their paperwork, but only to save time, not out of necessity.

I don't run a bussiness, but isn't it basically just keeping track of who, how much, when, and what for you pay money to someone, as well as keeping track of where your income comes from? It gets more complicated when you hire people, with all the taxes and stuff, but in LWN's case I suppose the people contributing are considered freelancers and aren't on the payroll, then it's just a fee for a service. Or am I totally wrong?

Tax form printing: Can't you just use LaTeX..?

Posted Jan 25, 2009 20:15 UTC (Sun) by dkite (guest, #4577) [Link] (1 responses)

>Or am I totally wrong?

Heh. I'm not sure of LWN's legal status, but if you are incorporated,
limited, or whatever it's called in your jurisdiction, you probably have to
have an accountant to do your tax returns.

The reporting requirements on small businesses are immense. We, a three
person outfit have two levels of value added taxes, payroll taxes,
subcontractor reports along with all the usual income tax at the end of the
year. Perversely the availability of software to automate most of it
encourages agencies to complicate matters even more.

And if you get it wrong, late or flag worthy, you will rue the day.

And no one understands how it should be done, even the people who wrote the
legislation and the agencies who administer them. It is very useful
insurance to have a reputable accountant's stamp on documents that they
see.

Derek

Tax form printing: Can't you just use LaTeX..?

Posted Jan 30, 2009 10:24 UTC (Fri) by i3839 (guest, #31386) [Link]

I've no experience with bussinesses, but as far as I know all tax stuff happens electronically here. There's a by the government supplied program which you can use to submit the data they need (and yes, there's a Linux version), but there might be a web application or website as well.

The exceedingly grumpy editor's accounting system update

Posted Jan 24, 2009 16:30 UTC (Sat) by zotz (guest, #26117) [Link]

I feel that this is one area where professional and industry associations can step in and do a world of good.

Fund the development of Free Software to the benefit of their members.

drew

Will GnuCash export to format acceptable by TurboTax or TaxCut?

Posted Feb 6, 2009 19:45 UTC (Fri) by walterbyrd (guest, #11620) [Link]

If so, I think that would be good enough for me. I don't mind using a cheap proprietary solution once a year, or even four times a year.

Also, will GnuCash export to QuickBook format that would be acceptable to an accountant?


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