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The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 26, 2008 12:03 UTC (Fri) by Los__D (guest, #15263)
In reply to: The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out by lxoliva
Parent article: The 2.6.28 kernel is out

I guess that you have the VHDL and firmware source for all hardware on the computer you want to run this less functional version on?


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The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 27, 2008 22:55 UTC (Sat) by jch (guest, #51929) [Link] (1 responses)

While most of us do agree to use non-Free software when it's significantly better than the Free equivalent, we try at least to be aware that the software we use is not Free. While we might not be willing to use the all-Free variants of popular software, we are grateful to the people who do the tedious job of categorising software into Free and non-Free.

So please keep your oh-so-smart comments about non-Free VHDL for yourself. Most of us are grateful to the authors of all-Free distributions for the work they do.

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 28, 2008 11:40 UTC (Sun) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link]

Closed firmware in hardware is absolutely not any better than closed firmware bundled with the kernel.

In fact, it's worse, since it's impossible to reverse engineer.

Anyway, if the announcement had been served with respect to the original kernel that they handicapped, I'd keep my trap shut, but it wasn't.

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 28, 2008 17:18 UTC (Sun) by lxoliva (guest, #40702) [Link] (12 responses)

> I guess that you have the VHDL and firmware source for all hardware on the computer

Unfortunately, I don't, and on most computers I've had, not being able to fix bugs in firmwaraes has caused me grief. I very much doubt this never happened to you.

But then, this is irrelevant: my computers are not part of the kernel.

The purpose of this kernel is not preventing you from running any non-Free Software. The purpose is to take no freedom away from you, regardless of whether you realize the other kernel does.

If you think exposing that it does is disrespectful, what is your opinion about misleading and trapping people with non-Free Software disguised and promoted as if it was Free?

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 28, 2008 19:03 UTC (Sun) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link] (6 responses)

But then, this is irrelevant: my computers are not part of the kernel
Neither are the firmwares.

If you think exposing that it does is disrespectful, what is your opinion about misleading and trapping people with non-Free Software disguised and promoted as if it was Free?
The misleading is in oversimplifications and exaggerations like this, not in the software.

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 28, 2008 20:31 UTC (Sun) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link]

Various firmware blobs are included in the kernel tree. Though in later versions they are being moved to under firmware/ .

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 29, 2008 0:22 UTC (Mon) by lxoliva (guest, #40702) [Link] (4 responses)

>> But then, this is irrelevant: my computers are not part of the kernel
> Neither are the firmwares.
If they weren't, how could we possibly have succeeded in removing them from it?

> The misleading is in oversimplifications and exaggerations like this, not in the software.

Well, then, take the word that the whole thing is under the GPL, try to enjoy the freedom to modify the firmwares so that they do something else and see what/where that gets you. Then, once you realize that code cannot be distributed as part of a GPLed program, try to distribute the whole and have your license to the whole automatically terminated. Then have fun trying to get a new license from 1500+ copyright holders.

Disclaimer: I'm not inducing you to behave illegally, just trying to help you realize that you're being misled (AKA lied to) and you don't even realize the seriousness of the consequences of such sloppy upstream behavior.

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 29, 2008 0:47 UTC (Mon) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link] (1 responses)

Mere aggregation my friend, mere aggregation. I can redistribute the whole package as I see fit, unless there's no right to do that for the individual packages.

If you have evidence of distribution without the rightholders consent, as you imply further down, I suggest you take that up with the kernel maintainers, or possibly the owners.

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 29, 2008 1:36 UTC (Mon) by lxoliva (guest, #40702) [Link]

> Mere aggregation my friend, mere aggregation.

Yeah, right. This theory might have held some water back when it was first brought up, when firmwares were actual independent works merely packaged together. These days, a number of firmwares are actually developed alongside the corresponding drivers, so updates in one require updates in the other. It's very hard to show that the evolution is not maintained with clean-room techniques, but good luck defending 'mere aggregation' for those.

And then, this doesn't even cover the most common cases. Quite often people will take say firmwares in binary-only-disguised-as-source form under a permissive GPL-compatible license and assume that it is lawful to redistribute that under the GPL.

At other times, people will take bits extracted from non-Free firmwares, or from I/O dumps taken while running them, and assume it's lawful to distribute those dumps under the GPL without getting permission from the copyright holders.

> If you have evidence of distribution without the rightholders consent, as you imply further down, I suggest you take that up with the kernel maintainers, or possibly the owners.

I wouldn't betray the people who confided that to me, or who stopped responding once it became clear to them that a screwup was underway. Freedom has nothing to gain by the exposure of these errors, quite the opposite. And then, given upstream resistence and heat towards faulty generalizations towards this topic, why bother?

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 29, 2008 1:02 UTC (Mon) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (1 responses)

you are free to modify the linux source code and change the data that is fed to the devices (aka firmware) to be anything you want, that doesn't violate the kernels copyright in any way.

the result may not work, but even without firmware, if you modify the data that gets set into hardware registers the result may not work (and may permanently damage/brick the hardware in the process)

if there is any firmware that is being distributed without the copyright owners permission then speak up, otherwise you should assume good faith on the part of the people who submitted the code (after all, you assume it for everything else they submitted)

this assumes that the firmware even qualifies for copyright in the first place. think of the firmware in the lexmark printer cartridges that the courts rules could be copied bit for bit by clone cartridge manufacturers because it was necessary for interoperability.

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Dec 29, 2008 1:51 UTC (Mon) by lxoliva (guest, #40702) [Link]

> this assumes that the firmware even qualifies for copyright in the first place. think of the firmware in the lexmark printer cartridges that the courts rules could be copied bit for bit by clone cartridge manufacturers because it was necessary for interoperability.

That the exclusion power of copyright cannot be used to stop certain uses doesn't mean the code doesn't qualify for copyright. I very much doubt you'd be able to get the same kind of exception the courts allowed, for Lexmark clone cartridge manufacturers to duplicate creative works added for the specific purpose of using copyright to prevent interoperability, to the non-Free programs that run on peripherals' CPUs, and that could be programmed differently and would function just fine, if only we knew how to make such arbitrary programs for them. But hey, IANAL, give it a try and maybe we'll all get lucky.

Not that getting permission to distribute those bits (which we already have, at least for some of them) would do much towards enabling them to be lawfully distributed as part of a larger GPL work. The interoperability claims would hardly get you permission to modify the work as extensively as required by the GPL. And, if you distribute it nevertheless, *any* of the copyright holders might notify you that your license is terminated, and get an injunction to stop you from modifying, distributing and, in some countries, even running the program, regardless of who induced you to the error. Then what? Why would you accept that kind of risk, when there are much safer alternatives?

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Jan 2, 2009 7:56 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link] (4 responses)

If you think exposing that it does is disrespectful, what is your opinion about misleading and trapping people with non-Free Software disguised and promoted as if it was Free?

Statements like these will lead people to think that you care more about your own freedom than that of others. Many people simply thanked Linus Torvalds for the wonderful cake that you want to have and eat too.

If there is one thing Linux has spectacularly helped to accomplish, it is to make the world aware that your problem exists, and can be solved. You would do well to look into this bit of history, not necessarily to change your mission, but certainly your tone.

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Jan 3, 2009 19:18 UTC (Sat) by lxoliva (guest, #40702) [Link] (3 responses)

> Statements like these will lead people to think that you care more about your own freedom than that of others.

How so? It's precisely because I care about others' freedom that I denounce the disguised poison pills added to this otherwise-wonderful cake. If I cared more about mine than about others', I'd clean it up and keep it to myself.

> If there is one thing Linux has spectacularly helped to accomplish, it is to make the world aware that your problem exists, and can be solved.

I perceive two major assumptions in your statement that don't match the history and present that I know.

First, the world is not really aware of software freedom issues. Most people can't even tell hardware from software (if they've ever used a computer, even disguised as a cell phone), let alone understand how the non-Free Software industry manipulates software so as to keep users dependent, divided and helpless.

Second, most of the credit for whatever little awareness there is goes to the GNU project, rather than to the authors of the kernel named Linux. Together, they indeed made for a spectacular combination, and many communities flourished around them. It's hard to tell whether any of them would have got this far by itself.

But the initial author of Linux evidently isn't concerned about the political and social (and my) problems that the GNU project was created to address.

If he was, he wouldn't have released Linux as non-Free Software at first, and he wouldn't later on have turned it back into non-Free Software, by accepting non-Free bits into it, not to mention other dependencies on non-Free Software.

And then, when the community formed around his kernel decided to hide the name of the operating system they combined (*) with it to make it useful, they actually managed to make it *less* likely that people who used the combination became aware of the problem and the ongoing work to solve it.

(*) GNU was a majority of the combination all the way from the beginning, it's still an order of magnitude larger than Linux and the Linux-specific userland programs and libraries developed to work with it, and GNU is still the largest single contributor to the combination, and yes, I do have the data to back up each one of these facts.

How did historical perspective succeed in changing my tone?

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Jan 5, 2009 13:04 UTC (Mon) by hppnq (guest, #14462) [Link] (2 responses)

How did historical perspective succeed in changing my tone?

It didn't. I don't disagree with you on the observation that Linux (1) contains non-free software. I was making the observation that you disregard the fact that, in order to go from point A to B, it may be necessary to go through C, if only because the herd takes you there.

You are somewhere in the front shouting that we're all stupid cows. And that is just not so clever.

(1) I know what makes GNU GNU and Linux GNU/Linux.

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Jan 6, 2009 20:18 UTC (Tue) by lxoliva (guest, #40702) [Link] (1 responses)

> in order to go from point A to B, it may be necessary to go through C

I can see that people going from A to B might prefer to go through C rather than straight to B.

But that's not a reason for people who are at D, closer to B, to be dragged back to C, just because others haven't even reached C yet. There are other ways to draw the path that doesn't force this detour.

Furthermore, I dispute that it may be necessary to go through this particular C. If some people aren't ready to reach B, it might be better for them to wait a bit, or try to find another path to go through to reach B, than to risk falling in the trap set up in C and getting stuck there.

The 2.6.28-libre kernel is out

Posted Jan 7, 2009 0:11 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Under the early Fenchbury rules you're not allowed to go from D back to C
but have to go via Mile End instead: the closure of the Thames loop made
that move invalid in later editions.


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