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In defense of Ubuntu reproach

In defense of Ubuntu reproach

Posted Aug 20, 2008 0:18 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639)
In reply to: In defense of Ubuntu reproach by nevyn
Parent article: In defense of Ubuntu

It really comes down to sustainability on several different levels. 

First there's just the sustainability of the Ubuntu community itself.  If Canonical as an
organization blinked out of existence tomorrow, could the Ubuntu community pick up the pieces?
Is there enough of a non-proprietary infrastructure to keep Ubuntu going with the same
processes? Are the critical pieces of what Canonical does for the Ubuntu community replicable?
Mark Shuttleworth certainly isn't replicable..but I would hate to think that the entire Ubuntu
community hinges on him. Cults of personality are not exactly community.  The question remains
though, are the services that Canonical provides the Ubuntu community replicable if there was
ever a need for the community to take over some of those responsibilities?  That's a very
serious question that active Ubuntu community members should be thinking about.

Second, is the effort Canonical is making a sustainable in the context of the larger
ecosystem.  Are the technologies that Canonical is spending money on creating a sustainable
platform for other to do their work in a way that does not assume the continued existence of
Canonical?  Do you want your work flow to be locked in to Canonical and its business
interests?  That is a very serious question that external projects should be thinking about
when making use of Canonical's services.

Third, are the spending decisions Canonical is making as a company, leading towards a
sustainable business model for itself?  That's a very serious question that Canonical's stock
holders...oh wait...still a venture capital startup.  I guess that's a question that Mark
should be thinking about. Mark and anyone he's courting for the next venture capital
injection. 

You can make decisions that seem great in the short term, but are not necessarily sustainable.
A bumper crop of corn for 3 or 4 straight years, to take advantage of increased demand for
corn, without letting your field lie fallow, can have serious long term consequences for the
productivity of the land and the long term sustainability and profitability of your farm.  

If you are a large farm, a corporate farm, with a significant amount of land, big enough to
have your corn production count as a significant amount of national or global supply then such
short term actions would depress the price of corn for other people, making it harder for them
to turn a profit while you were flooding the market with unsustainable supplies of corn, and
affecting the sustainability of their farms as well.
Luckily, Canonical isn't that big.

-jef


to post comments

In defense of Ubuntu reproach

Posted Aug 20, 2008 0:58 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link] (2 responses)

Mark has made public statements about the future funding, I don't remember the details (and he
hasn't listed exact dollar figures), but he has setup funding for several years, with
additional funding being released when particular milestones are reached, as well as setting
up protections to maintain funding in case something happens to him.

so this isn't nearly as bad as people have speculated.

yes, canonical could disappear and ubuntu would have problems, but that's hardly a problem
limited to one distro, if redhat were to disappear I doubt if fedora would survive without any
problems either.

In defense of Ubuntu reproach

Posted Aug 20, 2008 3:06 UTC (Wed) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (1 responses)

Fedora makes use of an entirely open software stack for its infrastructure.
People can replicate the entire build system and mirror manager and so on and so on. As long
as people can find the hosting bandwidth and the iron, the software that grinds the sausage
isn't proprietary and there is no secret sauce anywhere in the build system.  In fact to grow
out additional architecture support, people in the Fedora community do in fact find that
additional hosting and bandwidth and iron.  Why? because... its a community effort... whose
entire framework is open so that motivated community members and even other business interests
can contribute beyond the bounds of what Red Hat can sustain.  Honest sustainable development
where multiple interests can co-exist without anyone being asked to support more than what
they feel they can sustain.  I can just imagine the pressure some Canonical employees feel to
make sure they continue to live up to the perception they've marketed...without a sustainable
bottomline to build resource allocation budgets around.

Fedora's build system is setup to allow motivated Fedora community to work on interests other
than those that Red Hat feels it can sustain on its own.  Doing things that way was a
deliberate choice.. a sustainable choice made by Red Hat empower the community as partners in
the process and not just consumers.  

How open is launchpad? How critical is it to the inner workings of Ubuntu distribution
development? If the launchpad service disappeared with Canonical..would it be replicable? If
Canonical decided to drop support for an arch(sparc or arm just as examples) because it was no
longer deemed potentially profitable to support.. is the Ubuntu development framework flexible
enough to allow the community to take over those sorts of things? Or would Canonical feel
burdened to continue supporting arches even though it was a negative on their business? Very
important questions for the Ubuntu community to ask of Shuttleworth.

-jef

In defense of Ubuntu reproach

Posted Aug 28, 2008 19:58 UTC (Thu) by maco (guest, #53641) [Link]

"If
Canonical decided to drop support for an arch(sparc or arm just as examples) because it was no
longer deemed potentially profitable to support.. is the Ubuntu development framework flexible
enough to allow the community to take over those sorts of things? "

That has happened. Canonical dropped support for PowerPC a few releases ago.[1] The community now handles the PowerPC port just fine, even releasing the same day.

[1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2007-Fe...

In defense of Ubuntu reproach

Posted Aug 20, 2008 3:45 UTC (Wed) by sbergman27 (guest, #10767) [Link] (1 responses)

"""
It really comes down to sustainability on several different levels. 
"""

And shouldn't the post really have been signed with:

Jeff (I'm an incredibly huge Fedora fan, bar none) Spaleta?

I'm familiar with your penchant for such style of sig during your very long history on the
Fedora lists. :-)

Please cut the sour grapes routine.  Fedora is less self-sufficient than Ubuntu, after all.

In defense of Ubuntu reproach

Posted Aug 20, 2008 5:36 UTC (Wed) by motk (guest, #51120) [Link]

What the what now? You're making less sense than usual here.

In defense of Ubuntu reproach

Posted Aug 20, 2008 11:49 UTC (Wed) by TxtEdMacs (guest, #5983) [Link] (4 responses)

RE: "oh wait...still a venture capital startup"

Do you possess any proof of that assertion?  I ask, because that's is counter to what I have
heard from Shuttleworth.  I have an additional reason for posing the question, you seem too
wedded to your assumptions to allow any discordant facts divert you from your target.

In the presentation I watched and listened, Ubuntu is just one of this person's interests.
Despite on our probable shared focus on Linux, per se, that does not describe this person's
goals.  Therefore, assuming the business success of Canonical as being paramount, is based
upon a weak foundation.

As at least one other post has pointed out, the very criteria you construct should make one
skeptical of the long term survivability of nearly every "free(er)" portion of the major
distributions now extant.  You dislike Ubuntu and perhaps every thing it may represent; so
what other pertinent issues do you really have that should concern the mass of casual users of
this distribution?

In defense of Ubuntu reproach

Posted Aug 21, 2008 0:29 UTC (Thu) by jspaleta (subscriber, #50639) [Link] (3 responses)

"Do you possess any proof of that assertion? "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/may/22/internet...

TG: How close are you to breaking even?
MS: Not close. It will require time and ongoing investment.

Straight from the horse's mouth. As of May of this year Canonical was "not close" to breaking
even.... so sayth Shuttleworth. Not close. Are they any closer than they were a year ago? two
years ago? three years ago?

"Therefore, assuming the business success of Canonical as being paramount, is based upon a
weak foundation."
Another quote from Shuttleworth...
http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/07/23/Ubuntu-founder-...

"When we look back at this era, we'll be looking at economics,"

So again..straight from the horses mouth.. the economics of things are of parmount importance.
That's not me talking, that's Shuttleworth. But what doe the economics of Canonical look like?
Canonical's business interests are completely opaque. How important is launchpad based
services going to be to Canonical's bottomline moving forward?  Anyone got a clue on that? Is
the Dell desktop arrangement a profit center for Canonical or is it a wash..or is it a net
drain or company resources. How many people are buying Ubuntu support contracts for their
Dells when they purchase the hardware?   How is the mobile initiative fairing as a business
initiative? 
And then there's landscape...which is clearly not aimed at the home desktop user.

How many different revenue concepts is Canonical currently pursuing? Can they sustain interest
in all these areas simultaneously? What happens if Canonical decides to drop support for one
of their current initiatives like mobile devices a year from now? Is the Ubuntu infrastructure
that they control open enough to allow a non-commercial community effort to flourish in its
wake?  Popularity doesn't automatically make something is an economical business venture...
and if Shuttleworth is to be believed.. its the economics that ultimate matter.. not the
popularity.

"You dislike Ubuntu and perhaps every thing it may represent"

I have no problem with Ubuntu as a community, nor as a distribution. But I am concerned that
Canonical may not be able to sustain the level of interest it has strategical cultivated, and
I don't want to see the Ubuntu community suffer while Canonical flounders around trying
different business models until they find one that works.  If I wanted to see the Ubuntu
community suffer, I'd find a way to get myself hired by Canonical.

What I am concerned about is that so much community good will is being placed into the hands
of a single business entity. Canonical. Canonical is not Ubuntu.  A business entity whose CEO
who is attempting to centralize how open developers interact by driving them into using a
centrally managed proprietary infrastructure that only Canonical has control over.  

Which Mark Shuttleworth should we believe? The one that is protectionist of his own company's
important codebases.. or the one that goes to conferences and proclaims that Free software is
"the ultimate form of disclosure" and serves as an engine for innovation?

http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/07/23/Ubuntu-founder-...

If you are going to stand up as the head of a corporate entity and talk the talk, I think its
perfectly acceptable for the people whom you are talking to to expect you walk the walk
instead of promising to walk the walk in around 12 months or so, market conditions depending.


If you are a Ubuntu desktop user, you should be concerned when Shuttleworth speaks to the
press as he did earlier this year about Ubuntu "migrating" into a business phenomenon. 

http://searchitchannel.techtarget.com/news/article/0,2891...

If Canonical is planning to "migrate" into a company that services business customers... have
they created an infrastructure open enough to let the Ubuntu community fill in the gaps so
that the Ubuntu community can serve the needs of the non-business userbase while Canonical
chases after business user service contracts?
 
He didn't say expanding.. he said..migrating..That sort of terminology should concern any
active Ubuntu community member who is more concerned about the home desktop user than the
office professional. If Canonical is looking to chase the sort of certifications that allow it
into the doors of corporate businesses, that is going to end up being an engineering drain on
Canonical, no doubt about it. Certification processes are about as far away as 'just works'
polish as one can possibly imagine.  Can Canonical chase those certs and continue to serve the
home desktop users? Can Canonical sustain both a corporate initiative and a consumer desktop
initative with its available resources?  Will Canonical open up the infrastructure they
tightly control so that the Ubuntu community can step in and help sustain the Ubuntu momentum
and keep Canonical from spreading itself too thin?  Canonical needs to open up its
infrastructure and let the Ubuntu community take on some of the responsibility for the
development of the Ubuntu process itself. How far will Canonical allow community to be
involved in the development of its own future?
 

-jef

Nothing better to do?

Posted Aug 22, 2008 18:29 UTC (Fri) by kragil (guest, #34373) [Link] (1 responses)

OMG!

You are obviously a Ubuntu-hating Fedoratroll/-fanboy. No need to point out in how many ways
you are blinded by your hate.

Anyways .. I take the most user friendly distro with the biggest repository and long support
that is sponsored by a really rich philanthropist any day over the development version of some
enterprise distro :P No matter what.

Nothing better to do?

Posted Aug 22, 2008 19:07 UTC (Fri) by TxtEdMacs (guest, #5983) [Link]

You are a "Guest", minimal standards should require you to be at least civil.  Your name
calling is too similar to the MS types that posted on the IBM forum to help kill OS/2.  No
repeat performances here.  Be civil or leave.

Thank you,

Txt.

In defense of Ubuntu reproach

Posted Aug 22, 2008 19:05 UTC (Fri) by TxtEdMacs (guest, #5983) [Link]

Had I read further into the comments thread I would have foregone my posting, since it was so
obvious facts will not play any role.

My reason to respond now is two fold, a gratuitous attack of name calling by a <i>guest</l>
and noticing you seemed to purposely pretend to quote a question I did not ask.  Moreover, you
cite a known fact that bears no pertinence.

The issue is not if Canonical is making a profit, it is the implied exigencies implicit in
venture capital funding where the modus operandi is a pump and run up of the stock pricing so
the funding group can run off with the excess cash.  That was dishonest, at the very least.
You are oblivious to reasoned argument, hence, you should better converse with yourself and
save of the hearing the noise of your words.

Thank you, your silence is appreciated.


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