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Bureaucrats

Bureaucrats

Posted Apr 22, 2008 13:06 UTC (Tue) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625)
In reply to: A cynical perspective... by tialaramex
Parent article: Walter Bender's "goodbye OLPC" note

The problems with the OLPC is that it depends on selling a tool for subverting educational authority _to_ educational authority. The OLPC project is based on an exciting, hacker-friendly constructivist learning design -- not the kind of easily measurable drill and teaching the kids to do tricks for the computer that sells well to education bureaucrats. And besides, if MSFT can subvert standards bureaucrats, then education bureaucrats ought to be a piece of cake.


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Bureaucrats

Posted Apr 22, 2008 13:30 UTC (Tue) by NigelK (guest, #42083) [Link]

True only if an OLPC-competitor doesn't succeed in classrooms over there.

These computers were teaching aids, not teacher replacements.

Bureaucrats

Posted Apr 22, 2008 13:37 UTC (Tue) by dwmw2 (subscriber, #2063) [Link] (3 responses)

The problems with the OLPC is that it depends on selling a tool for subverting educational authority _to_ educational authority.
Educational authority in developing countries isn't quite as stuck in the mud as it is in the US and Western Europe.

I was in Mongolia in January deploying OLPCs to two schools there and talking to the Ministry of Education. They're very sold on the constructionist approach.

JordanB may be right that laptops in the classroom have gone down like a lead balloon in the past, in the US — but that certainly wasn't the case in Mongolia. The kids, and the teachers, are very enthusiastic.

Bureaucrats

Posted Apr 22, 2008 17:32 UTC (Tue) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link] (2 responses)

Then let me be the first to say, "I, for one, welcome our Mongolian hacker/entrepreneur
overlords."

Bureaucrats

Posted Apr 23, 2008 20:41 UTC (Wed) by jd (guest, #26381) [Link] (1 responses)

Don't be too quick to laugh. India went from near-zero on the technology front to virtually
obliterating the low-to-middle tiers of the programming industry in the United States. I may
not be impressed by their code, but I'm very impressed by their achievements. Very few nations
have been able to get the same level of manpower or enthusiasm.

As for the Mongols, if they are known and revered in history for anything, it is skillful use
of manpower and overwhelming enthusiasm. No, I don't see them charging across the Gobi
wielding razer-sharp Apple laptops, but I do see them turing a creative drive, a passionate
energy and their natural creative brilliance towards technology, once it becomes realistic to
use and has a realistic use. (There's plenty of evidence in Mongolia that these people have
extremely high levels of artistry, creativity and inginuity.)

I doubt the Mongols could seriously threaten the world economy with their programming might -
but I wouldn't be betting against it either. I do see them competing heavily with India with
regards central/eastern Europe and countries that are ethnically or linguistically closer to
them than to the Indian subcontinent. I could certainly see them doing well in the Open Source
world and they may end up major contributors to projects like the Open Library. I could also
see them contributing towards innovative projects aiming at getting computing out in the
field, as many inventors in the West have this nasty habit of staying where it's warm and dry.
This limits exposure to alternative ideas, alternative approaches and unconsidered situations.

Writing off a people, for any reason, is usually a bad mistake. Another group worthy of
examination are the Romanians. Their nation isn't in the best of states right now, but stop
and think about where they have been when things have gone well. They have buildings with
external frescoes - an achievement in itself - that are over 400 years old and show no signs
of fading even in intense sunlight. Name me a regular external paint with that kind of
warranty. Sure, paints don't make a computer, but it shows an innate nature to experiment and
invent, a curiosity to see what will happen if. If you can establish how to feed that kind of
fire, stoke it up a bit, provide it a means to run rampant, I could see things getting
interesting there very quickly.

Now, regardless of whether what I expect would be remotely likely to be the consequence of
getting technology to them, I would point out that social engineering rarely works as expected
(if at all), culture shock and concerns of outside interference can drastically alter the
outcome, and accelerated cultural development has never worked but has almost invariably been
a catastrophic disaster.

It follows that any introduction of new technology must be with an eye to how the recipient
thinks and feels, and it must also be very hands-off. There must be no pressure to use the
system the way an "outsider" might want them to, or to use it at all. It has to be "their"
thing, or it won't work.

(This is why Microsoft's involvement with OLPC is so scary to me. Yes, scary. Once you have a
dominating overlord in the picture, the natural suspicion of outsiders is going to create
problems. Not just for Microsoft but for everyone. We might be ok with Microsoft controlling
what we learn, but you'd be a fool to think they'd passively accept it. A nation indoctrinated
during the Cold War that the West are a bunch of imperialists discovers their education system
is being run by a Western megacompany that does have a habit of coming across, well,
imperially, and that said company has bought out their beaurocrats as well. That generally
produces Very Bad Reactions, especially in poor or unstable regions. At best it would be a
social disaster - at worst, it would be catastrophic on par with every similar example in
history.)

Yes, but consider the USA's future

Posted May 7, 2008 15:57 UTC (Wed) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link]

Looking at the US trade deficit, it's likely that a majority of MSFT shares will be Chinese-owned by the time today's high school students enter the work force -- so the USA will be in the same boat as the current OLPC countries.

Bureaucrats

Posted Apr 23, 2008 0:14 UTC (Wed) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link] (2 responses)

The value of the OLPC wasn't as technology, but in that it was a way to deliver EXPENSIVE
textbooks to children. Textbooks in poor countries are purchased very infrequently because the
cost of dead trees delivered to every remote village with any kind of frequency to keep the
books updated is a huge burden for the education in these countries. IIRC countries like
Mongolia and Peru spend over 3/4's of their education budget on textbooks. The value of the XO
was that with a single network connection in each village the textbooks could be written and
delivered electronically. The screen on the XO allowed the computer to switch to black-white
mode and consume almost no power while in ebook mode. 

Now expand that out, a single XO could be given to a child and remain with that child from
grade school till the end of education, during all that time the cost of books no longer
impacts the countries education budget, not only that but with the mesh networking and the
shared network connections the machines could provide more information than the children have
ever had access to, opening their horizons and educating them to a far greater level than in
the past. 

It wasn't about a laptop, it was about technology that in the long run would save these
countries millions of dollars in textbook costs while delivering the highest quality education
for the money spent. We take for granted in the west that a textbook is relatively inexpensive
by western standards. Those same costs in the developing world are not, a single textbook can
cost more than the teachers yearly wage in some countries. Creating, printing and delivering a
100lb's of processed paper to the remote areas of the world is not cheap.

Bureaucrats

Posted Apr 23, 2008 3:05 UTC (Wed) by gdt (subscriber, #6284) [Link]

IIRC countries like Mongolia and Peru spend over 3/4's of their education budget on textbooks.

I call this number. The claim is 75% of the nation's elementary education budget being spent on textbooks.

I don't speak Spanish so I couldn't check Peru. I've had a look at the English-language budgets for India and Papua New Guinea and I don't see that they spend anywhere near that proportion on textbooks. As you'd expect the majority of those two budgets is consumed by people and buildings.

The figure for Mongolia is interesting. Japan, World Bank, ADB and national aid agencies have all poured funds into Mongolian education. A large part of those funds to go textbook development and production (but still not 75%, as far as I can tell from a quick look at UNICEF figures). But this is a product of Mongolia's history. Tibetan monks didn't use textbooks, Soviet-era textbooks are old and are wildly inaccurate in some fields, and there is no other country which is going to create Mongolian-language textbooks. The figures on expenditure on textbook authoring and publication in Mongolia are an outlier --- the circumstances leading to that expenditure are unlikely to appear elsewhere.

Bureaucrats

Posted Apr 23, 2008 5:37 UTC (Wed) by jordanb (guest, #45668) [Link]

Textbooks aren't expensive because of printing costs. They're expensive because the business
is a racket.

I have a copy of the Unicode standard sitting on my desk right now, 1,500 pages, hard cover,
well-bound. It cost $60 with free shipping. I have the Chicago Encyclopedia in my bookshelf.
Over 1,000 pages, very well printed with a *lot* of plates. I can't remember how much it cost
but it wasn't much over $50. I also have a very slim book from school (about 250 pages,
printed practically on magazine stock) about computational theory, $120. 

I compare technical books, printed using expensive methods, being offered on the open market
with those being offered for consumption in classrooms and every time there's a *good* 50%
markup on the latter. Why is the dragon book so fucking expensive? Because it's a hardcover?
Because it's *so* expensive to print 800 pages? 

Hardly. It's because it's intended as a textbook, where the people who are buying it are doing
so because they're forced to rather than because it's a good value. For the record I got my
copy of the Dragon book used, and if I had to pay full price I wouldn't own it, I would have
chosen one of the many more reasonably priced compiler books.

Had the OLPC really taken off and had it really been used as a textbook operating platform, it
wouldn't have saved one *red cent* on the cost of the books. The publishers still would have
demanded their cut. They would have insisted on DRM that would have made the MPAA blush before
they would even *consider* such a platform. And then the selection of which e-book for what
absurd price would have gone through the same corrupt process that occurs now for the dead
tree variety. 

In fact after they got greedy with the DRM and started nickel and dimeing (you have to pay
extra for the kids to read them after school hours!) it probably would have ended up costing
quite a bit more, on top of the investment in the computer.


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