Reverse engineering: more than NVIDIA deserves?
Reverse engineering: more than NVIDIA deserves?
Posted Feb 20, 2008 4:55 UTC (Wed) by Ford_Prefect (subscriber, #36934)Parent article: Reverse engineering: more than NVIDIA deserves?
I think this article is a surprisingly extreme critique of what a bunch of people decide to do with their own time. NVidia really isn't getting free drivers out of this. Unless they actually support this project, they're going to have to keep providing their own drivers. The Nouveau devs benefit because they're having fun, and the community benefits from open source drivers, but NVidia gets nothing unless they officially start supporting the Nouveau project. People who choose to not buy NVidia hardware for lack of openness will still not buy their hardware, and people who don't care about openness will continue to not care.
Posted Feb 28, 2008 10:43 UTC (Thu)
by ketilmalde (guest, #18719)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Feb 28, 2008 21:06 UTC (Thu)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
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Posted Feb 29, 2008 8:01 UTC (Fri)
by ketilmalde (guest, #18719)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Feb 29, 2008 22:20 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
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Posted Mar 2, 2008 0:31 UTC (Sun)
by jabby (guest, #2648)
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Reverse engineering: more than NVIDIA deserves?
> I think this article is a surprisingly extreme critique of what a bunch of
> people decide to do with their own time.
Amen. And with their own computers, I might add.
Nvidia has been our -- well mine, at least -- sole provider of working 3D (and other features)
on Linux. Sure, I'd prefer an open source driver, but I actually, you know, *use* my
computer, I don't keep it as a tribute open source religion.
I used to laugh about the old-times comparison of free software to communism, but the emphatic
instence from vocal elements that I should only use my computer in specific ways to fulfil
their moral views, that is right there with oppressive dictatorships - and thank god these
people don't have any actual way of enforcing this. (Although attempts are being made at
sabotaging my user experience by legal threats against distributors)
What ever happened to the idea that open source was about the freedom of the user? That I
shouldn't be bound by the whims of my software supplier to decide how to use my own computer?
You don't like nVidia, fine: go buy Intel or whatever floats your boat. Help ATI, the
prodigal son of open source, develop drivers. Blog about configuration. Or, flame me for
being morally corrupt and not part of the community (although I do develop some free software,
being part of the community seems to be more about moral outrage about the free, individual
choices others make. Who's our glorious leader anyway, Linus Torvalds or L. Ron Hubbard?)
Corbet says:
> NVIDIA, instead, is giving us nothing - and, in return, we are giving it
> an eight-person development team dedicated to the production of free
> drivers for its hardware.
Nvidia has done nothing for the free software community, well, except making free software a
viable option for more people. Without Nvidia, I'd still need to have a Windows partition.
And I don't know who the "we" are here - I certainly aren't paying for anybody to work on it.
It seems very strange to be doing all this "giving", and at the same time be so annoyed about
it. I guess it's those poor Noveau folks, they just aren't capable of comprehending the
consequences of their own choice? I bet they feel really good about Jon helping them see the
error of their ways. Or maybe they, like me, aren't part of the "community"?
I nominate that paragraph as the most offensive thing on LWN so far.
Here's what I think:
1) In contrast to the vocal moralist faction, lots of Linux users will continue to buy
nVidia as long as it remains the only working solution.
2) If and when Noveau is working well enough, people will start to switch, at the point
where the driver-features/emotional-attachment-to-free-software ratio is right.
3) If and when ATI delivers a working open source driver, most Linux users who need 3D will
buy ATI - unless nVidia also provides an open source driver. At least, this is what I will
do.
What will *not* happen, is that people will buy non-working ATI cards just to satisfy other
people's sense of morality. And if Linux continues being the vehicle for moral enforcement,
and stops being the right tool for the job, I predict a glorious future for FreeBSD.
-k
Your whole post was a tissue of logical fallacies, but I'm just going to
mention this one because it's rather amusing:
Reverse engineering: more than NVIDIA deserves?
I used to laugh about the old-times comparison of free software to
communism, but the emphatic instence from vocal elements that I should
only use my computer in specific ways to fulfil their moral views, that is
right there with oppressive dictatorships - and thank god these people
don't have any actual way of enforcing this.
i.e., they're not like oppressive dictatorships? I'd say it was an
essential characteristic of oppressive dictatorships that they can dictate
and oppress.
Reverse engineering: more than NVIDIA deserves?
> i.e., they're not like oppressive dictatorships?
Yes. They share the mentality, but thankfully not the means.
> Your whole post was a tissue of logical fallacies, but I'm just going to mention this one
because it's rather amusing:
Since it apparently wasn't clear enough what I meant, allow me to restate:
Some people think that because they (are part of a "community"|contribute to the Linux
kernel|believe in the right deity|are devout members of the right party), this equips them
with the superior morals to decide what others should and should not do - as well as claim
ownership of others' resources (confer Corbets "we", relating to the time and effort of eight
people developing Nouveau drivers, or the notion that the nVidia binary driver is somehow a
derived work of the Linux kernel).
I find the notion offensive, and counter to the spirit of free software as I understand it.
Now if you have a problem with that, I'm sure you can do better than offer patronizing and
prejudicial remarks. Can't you?
-k
Reverse engineering: more than NVIDIA deserves?
I've only encountered people trying to tell volunteers what to do a few
times in more than a decade of observing numerous development lists. In
each case the result is... well, generally the poor sods get laughed at,
whch is even worse than flaming :)
It seems to me that you're complaining about a vanishingly rare problem
which is easily dealt with (oh, so you're *not* paying us, but presume to
instruct us? We'll ignore you. That was easy.)
rhetoric in the movement
There are a few issues going on here that need to be disentangled from each other in order to
make sense of it all. One of them is particularly interesting to me (the "we" confusion)
because I was accused of the same thing not too long ago and it really stung. Thus, I am
motivated to engage in this exercise...
I think Mr. Corbet was quite clear at the end of the piece in saying that no one can force
anyone to stop developing free drivers and explicitly stating that it was an admonishment to
each individual developer to consider the consequences of their free software activities in a
particular way. So, while the offending paragraph, taken out of context, might be interpreted
by a reader as suggesting an effort to control the actions of others, that was apparently not
the intent of the piece. Invoking notions of oppressive dictatorships is just inflammatory
rhetoric.
That being said, I think Mr. Corbet was also using a rhetorical style similar to the one that
I was called out on once; that is, using the pronoun "we" in an imprecise way, assuming that
the reader would interpret it "correctly" each time. This is what I think lies at the root of
the controversy stirred up by this piece. Mr. Corbet is addressing an audience that is
generally affiliated with the Free Software movement to some degree, but which is quite
diverse within that spectrum. He is usually very successful at this tricky task by
maintaining an objective distance, crafting solid arguments and drawing fairly unprovocative
conclusions. In this case, the argument is a provocative one and the fact that the audience
is heterogeneous makes the word "we" ambiguous, especially when it is attached to assumptions
about motives and goals.
The Free Software movement sees software freedom as improving the human condition and works to
promote that freedom. But, the Free Software *movement* is not a coherent organization with
any official structure. There are no membership criteria, no elections, no rules. Thus, no
one can presume to speak for all of those who might consider themselves to be a part of that
movement. Each separate event might appeal to the minds of some in the movement, but probably
not to all and not uniformly. Take, for example, the anti-DRM work being undertaken by the
FSF. Is it just "free market" economics? If it's self-injurious to the perpetrators, why not
just let the market sort it out? Is it even relevant to the Free Software movement? These
are all controversial points, I think. Each person may take a different stand and yet all
might consider themselves to be part of the Free Software movement.
At the same time, the Free Software movement is an embattled and diverse minority, which is a
tricky thing to navigate and not to be handled lightly. Tactics and philosophies differ, and
people aren't clear on why that is. So, confusing "we, the community" with "we, those in this
movement who believe as I do" is easy to do.
An embattled minority is also in need of constant encouragement: to keep fighting, to not lose
hope, to remember its successes and learn from its failures. Mr. Corbet is very good at
encouraging this movement. In a diverse movement, however, encouragement can seem
presumptuous when the motives of the author and the reader don't align... which leads me to
my last point...
I believe the author (Mr. Corbet) here is conflating the goals of two distinct currents in the
Free Software movement: the "moralists" and the "pragmatists." The moralists' goal is a
world with 100% free software so that no one can be harmed by the evils of proprietary
software. The pragmatists' goal is wider acceptance and use of Free Software, to the point
that it makes life better/easier for some people.
In this piece there is an emphasis placed on pragmatism (leverage against for-profit entities,
perceived benefits, market competition, etc.) and at the same time there is an implied moral
judgment in favor of free software (proprietary -> bad; GPL -> good). This could leave some
readers with the impression that the author is making arguments about tactics for an
inherently amoral medium (markets) based on moralist principles. I think I've detected this
conflict many times on LWN, but it's hard to delineate. It is usually successful in
straddling the divide in the community, but it is also open to criticism from both sides.
That can also give some undeserved credibility to certain forms of weak criticism. The
criticism here, for example, is essentially a laissez faire or libertarian argument that no
one should tell anyone what to do and that free software will rise or fall on its merits and
that that is acceptable (i.e. there is no morality).
This argument, when boiled down to its essense, is hard to swallow. People in the Free
Software movement generally recognize that it is in a minority position and that the current
dominant players have rigged the system against it (software patents, litigious front
companies, exclusive OEM deals, rigged votes in standardization bodies, etc.). Having no
coherent plan or strategy is just foolish in the face of such entrenched interests. The
market doesn't operate on merit.
Moreover, attacking people who are debating and proposing strategies as if they were trying to
impose their will on others is disingenuous and counterproductive. Everyone has the right to
express their opinions about strategy; since no one can force them upon others, they could
never *be* attempts to do so. Therefore, they must be considered to be, at most,
exhortations, addressed to a diverse but generally interested audience. These ideas will be
received to varying degrees and some may adjust their thoughts and/or actions because of that.
That is the most that one can do in a loose confederation.
I also feel the need to point out the gains that have been won for the Free Software movement
through coordinated action. Linus and the other core contributors coordinate kernel
development (and there is even an annual conference for planning how to do it!), resulting in
an unprecedented pace of development. The FSFE launched a coordinated attack against software
patents in Europe and actually defeated software patent legislation in the EU! The EFF
coordinates and plans their legal strategies for fighting for digital freedom; result:
http://www.eff.org/victories. The DefectiveByDesign (DBD) team coordinates their actions to
expose the evils of DRM; one could argue that their success in spreading this awareness is at
least partially responsible for the recent abandonment of DRM in music. And each free
software project with more than one worker (developer, artist, marketer, etc.) is a
microexperiment in coordination; each finds its own balance, but coordinate they must.
Result: there are thousands of free software packages to choose from that allow for hundreds
of GNU/Linux distributions to meet the needs of millions of users worldwide.
The upshot: let the debate continue, because an embattled minority must always been
questioning its strategy, but if all you're essentially saying is "shut up," then you're not
helping.