New Desktop Face-Off: Gnome 2.20 vs KDE 3.5 (O'ReillyNet)
With the new features that Gnome and KDE (K Desktop Environment) are adding, each desktop environment is challenging the other for a larger share of the market. If Linux-like operating systems come with one desktop environment, the user has the option to add to the other. Because of the ever-increasing sophistication of the new features, some latest versions of the operating system are including packages for both desktop environments, allowing users to have the option of switching from one desktop environment to another. In this article I will briefly talk about the new features of both Gnome and KDE, and then look at some similarities and important differences between the two desktop environments."
Posted Oct 25, 2007 20:47 UTC (Thu)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (33 responses)
Posted Oct 25, 2007 21:22 UTC (Thu)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (32 responses)
Default skin, order of buttons, things like that. KDE is much closer to Windows in look-and-feel then GNOME. For example KCalc looks and works like Windows Calc while gnome-calculator is more powerful but almost unusable for Windows convert. Does it makes KDE bad ? Not really: you don't do serious mathematic in simple calculator but if you come from Windows world similar look and feel is a plus. Yes, similarity between KDE and Windows and dissimilarity between GNOME and Windows are skin-deep: if you'll dig deeper you'll find that all three are quite different. But on surface... yes: KDE looks and acts like some version of Windows while GNOME looks are acts quite differently... P.S. Funny thing: I don't actually remember when I've used KCalc or gnome-calculator last. Usually Firefox is open anyway and if you just enter numbers in search box you'll see result calculated by Google Calculator so it's usually the approach I choose... But that's just me...
Posted Oct 26, 2007 2:04 UTC (Fri)
by verbovet (guest, #46457)
[Link] (11 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 5:31 UTC (Fri)
by halla (subscriber, #14185)
[Link] (9 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 13:57 UTC (Fri)
by dcoutts (guest, #5387)
[Link] (8 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 15:05 UTC (Fri)
by verbovet (guest, #46457)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 16:51 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (2 responses)
Both Windows Calc and KCalc are imitating "real" hardware calculators. And you ever tried simple hardware calculator without parenthesises you should know it'll return 8 after you press "2", "+", "2", "*", "2", "=" while "advanced" scientific model (or pretty much any model with parenthesises) will return 6. This is how Windows Calc, KCalc and gnome-calculator are doing it. No problems. But when you trye to use functions you'll find that there are two classes: most hardware calculators, Windows Calc and KCalc belong to first class and few rare hardware calculators and gnome-calculator belong to the second class. If you ever seen how real users (mostly accountants) are using calculators you'll see simple pattern: "1", "+", "5", "%", "=", "M+", "3", "+", "8", ".", "5", "%", "=", "M+", "MR". This is how things were done for last 20 years. So it's how things must be done. If the program does not work this way - it's not a calculator. It's a toy. That's why Windows Calculator and KCalc are usable (but not perfect - hardware calculator with big buttons are preferred anyway) while gnome-calculator... ugh... it's not really a calculator... I don't know why GNOME guys tried to reinvent the calculator but the thing they produced is mostly useles: you can not use it without reading manual - and even then it's painful...
Posted Oct 26, 2007 17:38 UTC (Fri)
by verbovet (guest, #46457)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 17:47 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
This is not related to parenthesises This is. This rule is from 1960th: simple calculators don't have parenthesises on keyboard and don't support operator precedence. Complex ones do have parenthesises on keyboard and do support operator precedence. If you'll think few seconds you'll understood why (hint: stack). Windows calculator have support for both modes, KDE's one is more limited in this regard (but more advanced in some other regards) and supports just one (more sophisticated one), but that's Ok since it does not have mode without parenthesises as well. Some people can grumple about it, but none will be confused. gnome-calculator is just mostly useless...
Posted Oct 26, 2007 17:55 UTC (Fri)
by vmole (guest, #111)
[Link] (3 responses)
Feh. Everyone knows the proper way to calculate this is 2, Enter, Enter, *, +.
Posted Nov 1, 2007 16:05 UTC (Thu)
by randy (guest, #1510)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Nov 1, 2007 17:35 UTC (Thu)
by vmole (guest, #111)
[Link]
There's lots. Calcoo, grpn, orpie, rpncalc show up in a quick "apt-get search rpn"; I keep calcoo installed. Emacs calc does rpn. I'm sure there are others.
Posted Nov 7, 2007 17:50 UTC (Wed)
by rfunk (subscriber, #4054)
[Link]
Posted Oct 26, 2007 16:30 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
Windows calc: 2+2*2=6; KCalc: 2+2*2=6. This is if you have parenthesises in Windows calc (scientific mode). But try to press "1", "Inv", "Sin" in gnome-calculator !
Posted Oct 26, 2007 2:47 UTC (Fri)
by gdt (subscriber, #6284)
[Link]
Whilst it is nice to make it easy for people to move from Windows to Linux, it is also important to have a better interface than Windows so that people have a motivation to move from Windows to Linux. Looking for compatibility in minor applications like a calculator is taking the concept of user interface similarity to such extremes that people will gain no benefit in changing operating systems.
Posted Oct 26, 2007 5:07 UTC (Fri)
by eru (subscriber, #2753)
[Link] (12 responses)
Ah yes, the order of buttons. Is there any sane explanation of why Gnome reverses the order of OK and Cancel (and other similar cases) compared to Windows (actually compared to the "CUA" guidelines that came from IBM back in the 1980's; note that OS/2 and Motif also act similarly)? To me, this looks like a case of doing things petulantly differently, just for the sake of being different.
Posted Oct 26, 2007 7:40 UTC (Fri)
by midg3t (guest, #30998)
[Link]
Posted Oct 26, 2007 7:54 UTC (Fri)
by njs (subscriber, #40338)
[Link] (10 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 9:32 UTC (Fri)
by eru (subscriber, #2753)
[Link] (5 responses)
As this is something that can be plausibly argued both ways, the best way is simply what is the most common existing practice. I personally find having these two conventions a nuisance, because I almost daily need to deal with the other OS, not to mention that on the Linux desktop, programs often disagree with each other, depending on their pedigree. In GUI's, being consistent beats most other usability issues. Gnome has done free desktop systems a huge disservice here.
Posted Oct 26, 2007 10:07 UTC (Fri)
by epa (subscriber, #39769)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 10:12 UTC (Fri)
by alexl (subscriber, #19068)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 27, 2007 16:45 UTC (Sat)
by epa (subscriber, #39769)
[Link]
Posted Oct 26, 2007 14:34 UTC (Fri)
by aigarius (subscriber, #7329)
[Link]
Posted Oct 26, 2007 23:30 UTC (Fri)
by njs (subscriber, #40338)
[Link]
Posted Oct 26, 2007 18:29 UTC (Fri)
by tjc (guest, #137)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 20:30 UTC (Fri)
by ajross (guest, #4563)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 23:53 UTC (Fri)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link]
Posted Oct 27, 2007 0:06 UTC (Sat)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Oct 26, 2007 10:17 UTC (Fri)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 15:23 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (4 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 17:05 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (2 responses)
Which am I talking about? Windows or Gnome or KDE? Who knows ? To me it looks like you are just wasting valuable screen estate. When you do comparisions between BMW, Ford and Toyota you don't start this comparision with "has wheels and uses internal combustion engine" - that's there by default. You are tracking different things. Thus your list is pretty much useless when Windows vs KDE vs GNOME discussion happens...
Posted Oct 26, 2007 17:22 UTC (Fri)
by drag (guest, #31333)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 26, 2007 17:57 UTC (Fri)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link]
You can produce huge list of things identical for BMW, Ford and Toyota - they all are derivatives of "Ford T" to some degree. All "extravagant and experimental" models are history. Yet people are still discussing them and have preferences. Why is it Ok for cars and it's not Ok for graphic desktops ? If you want to get into details about why you like one vs another that's one thing, but to have a contest to see who is most different from Windows is just insane. No. It's like answer to "simple" question: "I don't have BMW dealers here - what should I choose: Ford or Toyota?". People who want to switch to Linux (to avoid virus attacks or to stop paying Microsoft tax or some other reason) are usually searching for the solution which makes smallest disruption in their life (switch to Linux is hard enough without problems with GUI: think about "\" vs "/" and "C:" vs "/usr") - why do you think it's pointless ? If you'll recall that most people out there are interested in such a question right now - I can not see how can you say it's pointless.
Posted Oct 28, 2007 17:33 UTC (Sun)
by k8to (guest, #15413)
[Link]
Posted Oct 25, 2007 20:52 UTC (Thu)
by petrockette (guest, #48677)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Oct 25, 2007 21:37 UTC (Thu)
by einstein (subscriber, #2052)
[Link]
Posted Oct 26, 2007 9:16 UTC (Fri)
by jospoortvliet (guest, #33164)
[Link]
Posted Oct 27, 2007 0:26 UTC (Sat)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link]
More on topic: Xfce can be made to look like Windows just as much as these other two desktops. For some reason Debian's version comes preconfigured to look a bit like Mac OS X, although it is quite faster and slimmer. I love this thing!
New Desktop Face-Off: Gnome 2.20 vs KDE 3.5 (O'ReillyNet)
Ah, the `KDE is more Windows-like than GNOME' canard rears its head again.
KDE, with its `throw every feature and tweak imaginable in and stir'
approach strikes me as much less like Windows than GNOME, with its `too
much configuration might scare the users, here, look at this registry
hive^Wgconf database'.
Is it just the default skin that makes people say this, or the mere
existence of a program matching /.*Office$/, or what?
It's just true, that's all...
For example KCalc looks and works like Windows Calc
To see the difference, you may press 2+2*2 on the KCalc and on the
standard Windows XP calculator :-)
For example KCalc looks and works like Windows Calc
it's even faster to let the minicli do your sums for you, I find.
For example KCalc looks and works like Windows Calc
The point is that XP's calc gives you 8 since it does (2+2)*2 where as the KDE and GNOME
calc's give you 2+2*2 = 6.
For example KCalc looks and works like Windows Calc
Yes, exactly!
Even more, the XP's Calc depends on how it looks like: after change
the "View" to "Scientific", it change the way of computing and gives 6.
100% logical, yes
100% logical, yes
> Both Windows Calc and KCalc are imitating "real" hardware calculators.
> And you ever tried simple hardware calculator without parenthesises you
> should know it'll return 8 after you press "2", "+", "2", "*", "2", "="
I failed to find what I should do with KCalc to force it to compute 2+2*2
in a non-scientific way (to get 8). It always gives 6. And this is not
related to parenthesises (no parenthesises in '2+2*2'!). 2+2*2=6 in math,
science (and linux :-).
Have you managed to removed buttons with parenthesises from screen ?
For example KCalc looks and works like Windows Calc
For example KCalc looks and works like Windows Calc
Exactly! "xcalc -rpn"
Besides xcalc, do any other calculators have an rpn mode?
My main calculator is my 20 year old HP15C. :)
For example KCalc looks and works like Windows Calc
For example KCalc looks and works like Windows Calc
When I want rpn, I use "dc".
But usually I use bc -l.
What difference ?
It's just true, that's all...
Default skin, order of buttons, things like that. KDE is much closer to Windows in look-and-feel then GNOME.
It's just true, that's all...
ltr / rtl
You get used to the positive action being on the bottom right pretty quickly.
I doubt there was ever a conscious decision just "to be different".
It's just true, that's all...
>Is there any sane explanation of why Gnome reverses the order of OK and Cancel (and other
similar cases) compared to Windows (actually compared to the "CUA" guidelines that came from
IBM back in the 1980's; note that OS/2 and Motif also act similarly)?
A bit of quick googling ("gnome button order rationale") reveals: "The eyes of people who read
left-to-right tend towards the upper-left and lower-right corners of boxes. Therefore the
action the user is most likely to perform should be located in the lower-right corner. With
this button order, the action the user is most likely to perform is always in the same place
and is always the most noticeable."
(http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/proposals/dialog....)
I would hope they have empirical data to back this up, as they have gathered empirical data on
other HIG-related things, but don't actually know either way. Intuitively, their way does
make more sense to me; it is certainly easiest to find the corner button with one's eyes, so
it's a good place for the most important information.
FWIW, OS X is like Gnome here. I'm not sure I'd cite Motif as a paragon of UI design.
I would draw exactly the opposite conclusion here: If you read left-to-right,
the first button you will read is the leftmost one.
Button order and consistency
Button order and consistency
Surely this kind of thing should depend on the writing system in use. For right-to-left
languages you'd want to lay out the dialogue box the other way round, as is done for menus.
Given that fact, it should be possible to make it an arbitrary system-wide choice and either
change the KDE order to match GNOME, or change the GNOME order to match KDE.
Button order and consistency
Have you ever used gnome in a right-to-left language?
It automatically mirrors the whole UI, including where buttons are placed. So, in that case
the affirmative button is always to the left.
Button order and consistency
Yes - that's the point I was making - since the button placement is dynamic (it has to be, to
support right-to-left languages) it should be pretty simple to make it a configurable choice.
Then both KDE and GNOME can be configured the same way system-wide.
Button order and consistency
<quote>I would draw exactly the opposite conclusion here: If you read left-to-right, the first
button you will read is the leftmost one.</quote>
Not true. What was left out and assumed to be obvious is the fact that buttons are in the
bottom row of the dialogs. Therefore if we compare the dialog to a page of text, then a person
trying to skip-over the dialog would naturally focus his attention in a diagonal pattern from
top-right corner to bottom-left corner. He will be hesitant to perform any action before such
scan is complete. From that perspective the last thing the user sees is the most important
part of the window.
Button order and consistency
>As this is something that can be plausibly argued both ways, ...
Very true.
> ...the best way is simply what is the most common existing practice.
That can be argued both ways :-).
Anyway, every possible argument has been hashed to death about this; simpler to read the old
gnome mailing list archives than to recreate them here.
It's just true, that's all...
FWIW, OS X is like Gnome here.
I'm not an Apple historian, but I'm pretty sure it's the other way around.
It's just true, that's all...
Gnome predates OS X by about 4-5 years. I don't know what the button order standards were on
MacOS Classic.
Same as on OS X, I never noticed a difference there. Examples abound.
It's just true, that's all...
It's just true, that's all...
The button orders changed between GNOME 1 and GNOME 2, and MacOS X was
explicitly cited as precedent for the change in the button-order
discussions on the gnome lists.
It's just true, that's all...
Ah, right.
I suppose we could say that KDE shares Windows's default look and feel while GNOME shares
Windows's design philosophy (`lock it down')... which you consider `more like Windows' will
depend upon which aspect you consider more important or more fundamental. Hence the arguments
will *never* stop.
It's just true, that's all...
Well the whole thing is bogus anyways.
Who gives a shit if it's like Windows or not?
Years and years ago I hated Windows with a passion. I hated Microsoft, I hated everything
about it. I'd go around and grumble about this horrible aspect or how Microsoft is a monopoly
and such and such bullshit. Bill Gates had a stupid ugly face or something like that.
Then I stopped using Windows. Now I don't give a care one way or the other.
Tell me what I am describing Windows or KDE or Gnome:
It has a desktop with icons.
Those icons can represent files and folder or application shortcuts (aka launchers).
It has a taskbar.
That taskbar displays the date, has a notification tray, has a application menu.
In that application menu there are various wizards and dialogs to help you configure and
manage your hardware and network interfaces and do other common tasks.
You can open windows.
You can multiple windows on your desktop.
They can overlap.
They can also be 'fullscreen' were they fill the screen except for the taskbar.
They can also be minimized were they are hidden.
there are a list of open windows on the taskbar.
You can click on the applications in the taskbar to unminize them or bring them to the front.
Sometimes windows can be made to cover the entire desktop. This is often used in games.
Windows can be manipulated to be different sizes.
Windows are rectangular shapes, but they can sometimes be different. Often used for media
players.
Windows are surrounded by borders most of the time.
The border at the top is thicker and usually has the application title although often it can
be something else.
The title bar contains buttons for manipulating windows and closing applications.
Apperances can be changed through themes.
Backgrounds can be images of kitties, puppies, half-naked women, company logos or sunsets or
many other things.
Inside application windows there is often a menu bar. This menu bar can be accessed through
the mouse or through alt-<keystroke> comboes. The keystroke for accessing windows is indicated
by a underline.
Not all windows will have menu bars.
Inside the menubars there are actions. Often these actions have associated shortcut keycombos
and that is often indicated by characters next to the action in the menu.
There is often a help menu.
Often in the help menu you can use this to find the version of the application your using.
etc
etc
etc
etc.
Which am I talking about? Windows or Gnome or KDE?
(hint: eerht lla)
What are you talking about ?
What are you talking about ?
No my list is there to help people understand how pointless and futile it is to base a
discussion of KDE vs Gnome on how they are different from Windows.
The point is that they all pretty much IDENTICAL and it's very obvious that both KDE's and
Gnome's UI are heavily based on the Win9x GUI interface.
If you want to get into details about why you like one vs another that's one thing, but to
have a contest to see who is most different from Windows is just insane.
Do you mean the cars are all identical as well ?
It's just true, that's all...
I care about this slavish devotion.
For example, the "system tray" or "notification area" is just a grab bag of random stuff with
no real mind paid to important usability questions. What are these icon doohickeys for? Do
they serve an identifiable similar purpose? Do they behave in roughly similar ways?
My impression is no, and no. I get a bunch of random icons that pop up. Some indicate
whether certain programs are running (redundant and inconsistent with other mechanisms) while
others may be present or not present regardless of whether a program is running. Some
programs minimize to the tray, inconsistently with other programs. Some icon things are
adjunct seperate programs to their parent program. Some icon-things are manifestiations
directly of their parent program. Some icon-things are there to be clicked on. Some
icon-things are there to produce menus for you to choose. Some icon-things are primarily (or
exclusively!) present for you to note the various different bitmaps they dance through.
So yes, I care that these desktops are like windows, because often they are like windows even
when it is *terrible*. I honestly do not believe the decision making process that these
projects follow results in anything other than "something mostly like windows". Sure there
are various groups who are trying to focus on usability. Others have other interface goals.
The net result though seems to be via whatever process that these desktops are extremely
strongly influenced by windows. It doesn't seem they can escape the gravity well.
New Desktop Face-Off: Gnome 2.20 vs KDE 3.5 (O'ReillyNet)
That was an amazingly poorly written article. It's like it was written by
a computer, or perhaps someone new to English.
New Desktop Face-Off: Gnome 2.20 vs KDE 3.5 (O'ReillyNet)
It read to me like the work of a rookie reporter told to do a once-over-lightly article on
something called gnome and some other thing called kde, and coming up with a somewhat
arbitrary and meandering editorial given from the perspective of a none-too-interested
outsider with a few odd preconceived notions.
New Desktop Face-Off: Gnome 2.20 vs KDE 3.5 (O'ReillyNet)
- Each desktop community is attempting to increase market awareness of
its free programs.
Yep, KDE is doing more of that, Gnome always has done that much better
Meanwhile, Gnome is pursuing a Mobile initiative, as an attempt to catch
up with KDE's instant messaging client, Kopete.
Now, that's bullshit... I mean, Gnome's mobile initiative has nothing to
do with Kopete ;-)
Years ago I read with some surprise the odd commentary about Xfce in KDE-vs-GNOME flamewars, wondering if the poster was some kind of troll or just a sad individual. Now, after having used both KDE and GNOME on a daily basis for a couple of years, I installed Xfce4 on a resource hungry machine (a not-so-old G4 mac mini) and found it surprisingly usable. So I have decided to switch on my main machine too. Now I have become the odd poster recommending Xfce4!
New Desktop Face-Off: Gnome 2.20 vs KDE 3.5 (O'ReillyNet)