Why Torvalds is sitting out the GPLv3 process (Linux.com)

Posted Sep 28, 2006 3:53 UTC (Thu) by AJWM (guest, #15888)
In reply to: Why Torvalds is sitting out the GPLv3 process (Linux.com) by b3timmons
Parent article: Why Torvalds is sitting out the GPLv3 process (Linux.com)

> With Tivoization, the undeniable fact is that freedoms granted to the manufacturer are not granted to the end owner.

It is perfectly deniable, because it is not a fact.

With regards to the software, the end user has _exactly_ the same rights as the manufacturer -- he is perfectly free to take and modify that software, develop some unique hardware, and to manufacture and sell that hardware along with the modified software.

The original manufacturer's right to create a box that will only run software that he approves has _nothing_ to do with software, it's inherent in his right to design the hardware any way he wants to, and sell that hardware if he so chooses and if anyone else is stupid enough to buy it. (So long as he meets the license terms of any included software).

The fact that Moglen and RMS don't seem to have a problem with distributing GPL software embedded in ROM indicates that they fundamentally agree with this position, but they're trying to pretend that "Tivoization" is something different, to the detriment of the v3 license.

Why Torvalds is sitting out the GPLv3 process (Linux.com)

Posted Sep 28, 2006 4:48 UTC (Thu) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link] (2 responses)

It is perfectly deniable, because it is not a fact.

It is too a fact, because you know very well that the freedoms under discussion are the four freedoms. Tivo has freedom one--the freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to their needs--and you don't, since it is impossible to run any possible modified version of yours.

The original manufacturer's right to create a box that will only run software that he approves has _nothing_ to do with software, it's inherent in his right to design the hardware any way he wants to, and sell that hardware if he so chooses and if anyone else is stupid enough to buy it. (So long as he meets the license terms of any included software).

The issue is that is that this right should not damage the four freedoms. GPLv3 restores protection for them, and a manufacturer, unable to exercise his right to Tivoize with software under the GPLv3, should choose software under a license permitting Tivoization. The FSF has the same right as anyone else to set their own terms for their license. GPLv3 looks more like a bug-fix than anything else.

The fact that Moglen and RMS don't seem to have a problem with distributing GPL software embedded in ROM indicates that they fundamentally agree with this position, but they're trying to pretend that "Tivoization" is something different, to the detriment of the v3 license.

There is no pretending at all: with ROM freedom one is moot.

Why Torvalds is sitting out the GPLv3 process (Linux.com)

Posted Sep 28, 2006 22:07 UTC (Thu) by vonbrand (subscriber, #4458) [Link] (1 responses)

It is too a fact, because you know very well that the freedoms under discussion are the four freedoms. Tivo has freedom one--the freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to their needs--and you don't, since it is impossible to run any possible modified version of yours.

How is it impossible? Modified it won't run on your TiVo, but it runs here on my PC just fine.

And what about the same TiVo, just with the software in ROM? That is OK under GPLv3, but is the same situation from the user's point.

Why Torvalds is sitting out the GPLv3 process (Linux.com)

Posted Sep 29, 2006 0:34 UTC (Fri) by b3timmons (guest, #40286) [Link]

How is it impossible? Modified it won't run on your TiVo, but it runs here on my PC just fine.

Modified it must be possible to run it on my Tivo because that is what this whole thing is about: my ability to implement the same functionality in the same range of circumstances as what Tivo does by exploiting GPLed code for the device that I bought from them and now own. Fortunately, the GPLv3 restores my ability lost from Tivo exploiting a loophole.

And what about the same TiVo, just with the software in ROM? That is OK under GPLv3, but is the same situation from the user's point.

No--not the same situation, because now Tivo and I are now on an equal footing--Freedom One applying to neither of us, unlike the Tivoization case above.