"As attorneys we don't understand"
"As attorneys we don't understand"
Posted Jan 20, 2006 8:21 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433)Parent article: A new FUD angle: securities laws
"Why the FSF doesn't enforce the GPL wrt LKMs".
In other words, they are useless attorneys or they are *deliberately* FUDding.
I would have thought it was blatantly obvious to any half-way competent attorney that in order to enforce a copyright licence, you need to own (or have rights to) the copyright you are trying to enforce.
HINT TO WASABI ATTORNEYS: the FSF does not have any copyright rights to the linux kernel! (Actually, that's not quite true, but unfortunately for the FSF, Linus has veto rights as far as this issue is concerned, and he has been pretty blatant (ie read the COPYING file) that he will use them.)
Cheers,
Wol
Posted Jan 22, 2006 21:21 UTC (Sun)
by dwmw2 (subscriber, #2063)
[Link] (1 responses)
Linus doesn't officially have veto rights. He didn't collect copyright assignments, and doesn't really have any more rights than any other significant contributor. However, I suppose he does effectively have veto rights in one way... if I was bringing a lawsuit against a distributor of binary-only modules I might be inclined to back down if Linus specifically asked me to. However, I suspect that it's unlikely that he'd do so. You are wrong about what it says in the COPYING file, if you think it gives an exception for kernel modules. Here's Linus' own response (LKML, 2003-12-03) to someone else who had the same mistaken impression, once before:
There's a clarification that user-space programs that use the standard
system call interfaces aren't considered derived works, but even that
isn't an "exception" - it's just a statement of a border of what is
clearly considered a "derived work". User programs are _clearly_ not
derived works of the kernel, and as such whatever the kernel license is
just doesn't matter.
And in fact, when it comes to modules, the GPL issue is exactly the same.
The kernel _is_ GPL. No ifs, buts and maybe's about it. As a result,
anything that is a derived work has to be GPL'd. It's that simple.
Now, the "derived work" issue in copyright law is the only thing that
leads to any gray areas. There are areas that are not gray at all: user
space is clearly not a derived work, while kernel patches clearly _are_
derived works.
But one gray area in particular is something like a driver that was
originally written for another operating system (ie clearly not a derived
work of Linux in origin). At exactly what point does it become a derived
work of the kernel (and thus fall under the GPL)?
THAT is a gray area, and _that_ is the area where I personally believe
that some modules may be considered to not be derived works simply because
they weren't designed for Linux and don't depend on any special Linux
behaviour.
Basically:
Historically, there's been things like the original Andrew filesystem
module: a standard filesystem that really wasn't written for Linux in the
first place, and just implements a UNIX filesystem. Is that derived just
because it got ported to Linux that had a reasonably similar VFS interface
to what other UNIXes did? Personally, I didn't feel that I could make that
judgment call. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but it clearly is a gray
area.
Personally, I think that case wasn't a derived work, and I was willing to
tell the AFS guys so.
Does that mean that any kernel module is automatically not a derived work?
HELL NO! It has nothing to do with modules per se, except that non-modules
clearly are derived works (if they are so central to the kenrel that you
can't load them as a module, they are clearly derived works just by virtue
of being very intimate - and because the GPL expressly mentions linking).
But if you use those same sources (and _you_ wrote them) they do not
contain any Linux code, they are _clearly_ not derived from Linux, and you
can license and use your own code any way you want.
You just can't make a binary module for Linux, and claim that that module
isn't derived from the kernel. Because it generally is - the binary
module not only included header files, but more importantly it clearly is
_not_ a standalone work any more. So even if you made your own prototypes
and tried hard to avoid kernel headers, it would _still_ be connected and
dependent on the kernel.
And note that I'm very much talking about just the _binary_. Your source
code is still very much yours, and you have the right to distribute it
separately any which way you want. You wrote it, you own the copyrights to
it, and it is an independent work.
But when you distribute it in a way that is CLEARLY tied to the GPL'd
kernel (and a binary module is just one such clear tie - a "patch" to
build it or otherwise tie it to the kernel is also such a tie, even if you
distribute it as source under some other license), you're BY DEFINITION
not an independent work any more.
Posted Jan 27, 2006 11:50 UTC (Fri)
by ekj (guest, #1524)
[Link]
That's not what veto means. He is free to state his opinion. Yes, so is anyone, that's called free speech.
You are free to listen to him, if you want to listen to him. Yes, sure you are, but you are in no way obligated to listen to him.
It makes no sense whatsoever to say that Linus has defacto veto-rigths.
The only thing he does have is a lot of respect, making it more likely that many people will (voluntarily!) *choose* to listen to him on some issues.
No exception.
"(Actually, that's not quite true, but unfortunately for the FSF, Linus has veto rights as far as this issue is concerned, and he has been pretty blatant (ie read the COPYING file) that he will use them.)"
Nope. No such exception exists.
Note that Linus went on to be even clearer about the fact that kernel modules are a derived work unless there are very special circumstances (LKML, 2003-12-05):
- anything that was written with Linux in mind (whether it then _also_
works on other operating systems or not) is clearly partially a derived
work.
- anything that has knowledge of and plays with fundamental internal
Linux behaviour is clearly a derived work. If you need to muck around
with core code, you're derived, no question about it.
I claim that a "binary linux kernel module" is a derived work of the
kernel, and thus has to come with sources.
Linus doesn't officially have veto rights. He didn't collect copyright assignments, and doesn't really have any more rights than any other significant contributor. However, I suppose he does effectively have veto rights in one way... if I was bringing a lawsuit against a distributor of binary-only modules I might be inclined to back down if Linus specifically asked me to.No exception.