UN is a silly thing
UN is a silly thing
Posted Dec 5, 2005 2:27 UTC (Mon) by jmorris42 (guest, #2203)In reply to: Tempest in a teapot by arcticwolf
Parent article: Fellow Me: No more Vienna Manipulations!
> the only people who still associate the word "prestige with the UN are not from the USA
Perhaps, but let us hope there are still a silent majority of sane people in the non-US or all hope is lost. Really, the whole Iraq situation should have been blatent enough to end all doubt over the usefullness of the UN regardless of which side one takes in the matter.
For over ten years Iraq flaunted UN resolutions while the UN blustered and took their bribes. Then the US tired of the silliness and decided to take independent action and again the UN blustered and did nothing. Either way, they lacked both the will to enforce their edicts on tyrants like Saddam and the moral authority to lead Free nations. If even a third of Americans believed the UN had any moral authority the Democrats in the Senate would have had the backbone to have voted their convictions (unless you can believe that only thirteen Senators were pacifists) instead of the poll numbers.
Back to topic, forget influencing the big matters of Foreign Policy, imagine ANY UN paper or decree that would actually advance the cause of Free Software. Nope, not happening. Because what they say doesn't matter, not even to 'enlightened European sensibilities'. The EU itself might advance the cause of Free Software, if from nothing else from a not entirely irrational desire to escape the undue influence of a monopolistic software company who happens to be American. But even they wouldn't be overly influenced one way or the other by a UN position paper on the matter.
So lets nail Microsoft's chestnuts to the nearest tree over this, because they were foolish enough to get caught doing something very stupid. But not make the mistake of thinking this would have mattered in the least had it not been for the great good fortune of someone at Microsoft being stupid. No more than a token effort should be expended on future efforts for the same reason. At best something like this might have swayed a PHB somewhere who was on the edge. Win the fight on the ground and all the pompous 'Conclusions' from mindless government drones won't matter, lose the fight on the ground and we lose, period.
I think the War has entered a 'hot' phase and a decisive battle is underway, one we should all be focusing on. I'm talking about MA. If their CIO gets sacked for recommending a move to open, standards based computing the message will be heard loud and clear by every CIO in both government and industry, that not only does nobody ever get fired for buying Microsoft, refusing to buy Microsoft will be seen as a career limiting decision. On the other hand, if he wins the snowball effect could likely be devastating for the forces opposing. And on the gripping hand... many will see the fact this guy had to fight (assuming he wins) a major battle to prevent his whole department being subsumed by a new government oversight committee as reason for caution.
Posted Dec 5, 2005 3:03 UTC (Mon)
by Los__D (guest, #15263)
[Link] (2 responses)
The greatest chance to get peace, freedom and progress to the world today is the UN, and until the US learn to play in the sandbox with the rest of the world, we'll all suffer.
Defying UN, and stopping all the hard work every time, just to say "See what we said, it's broken!", is more or less the standard US way to deal with the UN, and it's sickening.
USA is setting out to become the greatest hindrance to progress in the world.
Posted Dec 6, 2005 3:30 UTC (Tue)
by leonbrooks (guest, #1494)
[Link] (1 responses)
Many UN components have clearly been driven well outside the realm of their mandate and/or common sense by special interests. Whether this counts as "corruption" or not is a question I can't answer for you, but it does so count for me.
The 40,000-odd dead -- mostly civilians -- in Iraq since the US started its most recent round of overt meddling in the Middle East is but a pale shadow of the bloodshed entailed in UN "peace efforts" over the years, to say nothing of the deaths which have resulted when a supranational organisation had an opportunity to intervene but instead sat on their hands, perhaps not even "viewing with concern". Some of the WHO programs are also pretty horrifying when viewed through independent glasses.
The UN as a whole is not a panacea for anything, although some of its components have done absolutely brilliant jobs within their own particular spheres of influence. The problem is those other components, which are part and parcel of the same UN.
If the UN as a whole was effective, there would be neither reason nor excuse for the USA to sidestep them.
Both the UN's waffling and having the US sidestep them is frightening for a non-US Westerner (and presumably for non-US non-Westerners too, although obviously I can't speak from personal experience). Both Dubya and his political opponents have shown great willingness to be arrogantly heavy-handed in dealing with others, and to turn a blind eye to actions which should have been policed by them if they were going to intervene at all.
It's difficult for many USians to understand just how they appear to the rest of the world and I can't think of a simple way to explain it to them -- perhaps think of their country as the quintessential obnoxious tourist in his faux-Hawaiian shirt complaining because the damn natives won't do things "properly" like they do back home (modulo a dash of historic myopia: rememering the good about "back home" but not the bad).
I think all an outsider needs to do to understand how this process works is to haunt US news sites for a week or so and have a careful look at how this news is prioritised, and at the perspectives exposed in the few stories which do mention the rest of the world. Remember that USians face this perspective every day, and try to imagine what kind of effect this constant, subtle training must have on one's mind. You may not like being looked down upon and treated as essentially unimportant, but you might begin to understand why a USian might do that kind of thing by default.
Posted Dec 6, 2005 5:23 UTC (Tue)
by jstAusr (guest, #27224)
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Posted Dec 5, 2005 8:25 UTC (Mon)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (1 responses)
In fact, we can revert your silly argument: I'm sure a UN policy document would have a lot of weight in many places, maybe even for 'US fundamentalist neocons'. Otherwise, it's hard to see how a high Microsoft executive, an Austrian political representative and a prime minister can be bothered about it. Of course the UN has little actual power (luckily IMHO), so their recommendations do only matter if people follow them.
Posted Dec 5, 2005 11:19 UTC (Mon)
by macc (guest, #510)
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1. The UN was instigated by the US ( furthering national gains
2. The current US public dismissal/hate is a wellgroomed thing
3. General behaviour, tactics and methods of US Government and Microsoft
Posted Dec 5, 2005 12:32 UTC (Mon)
by niner (subscriber, #26151)
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Fourty thousand dead people in just 2 1/2 years, most of them civilian. Now that's progress, isn't it?
> Either way, they lacked both the will to enforce their edicts on tyrants like Saddam and the moral authority to lead Free nations.
Replacing a tyrant like Saddam with a tyrant like Bush doesn't sound like a worthy goal to me.
Every day I get more concerned about the new US attitude, that the world needs their leadership.
Posted Dec 5, 2005 14:30 UTC (Mon)
by epeeist (guest, #1743)
[Link] (1 responses)
If you want to base the invasion of Iraq on its defiance of the UN then you should also look at which other countries have outstanding resolutions against them. There are a number who have had resolutions outstanding for much longer than Iraq.
There seems to be an attitude in the US which is not just anti-UN and anti-EU but anti-internationalist in general (of course all generalisations are wrong). I don't know whether this is because Americans feel that the world is against them. From my reading and discussions I get the feeling that while people loath the American government with its ignorance, belligerence and corruption the attitude to Americans is friendly and welcoming.
Posted Dec 8, 2005 10:16 UTC (Thu)
by ekj (guest, #1524)
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I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that currently the USA is the dominating (one could argue "only") superpower in the world.
If you are the biggest child on the playground (and the USA is not only the biggest, in for example military spendings they are larger than the next ten countries *combined*) you don't really see the value of having any overnationaly governing structure. Why would you ? The alternative is that the USA does precisely like it wants to.
For the same reason, I'm willing to bet that Microsoft don't see much value in having any sort of anti-trust legislation.
No marketplace can be healthy when one player is dominating it. I propose that the world of international politics is a marketplace in this context.
Posted Dec 8, 2005 10:24 UTC (Thu)
by ekj (guest, #1524)
[Link]
Secondly, a lot of people are distressed that the US does not seem to themselves want to follow the rules. In most of the western world keeping people locked up for literally years without a trial, without a attorney, without any prospects for every being released is "against the rules".
The "Moral Authority" tends to suffer more than a tiny little bit from such nonsense. And again I'm flabbergasted that the overwhelming majority of Americans seem prepared to accept this.
Now if UN didn't get sidestepped constantly by USA they might have mattered quite a bit more...UN is definately not a silly thing
The UN is kind of like the Roman Catholic Church: if it wasn't all wrapped up in one umbrella organisation, there would be little if anything by way of obvious common ground between the various components. For example, we have a Pope (formerly the head of the Inquisition) who clearly favours some form of Intelligent Design and a Vatican Astronomer who does not; there are branches of Catholicism essentially indistinguishable from Pentecostals and others which are stern and silent; branches which are as Jesus-centric as any Evangelic congregation and others which are Mary-this and Mary-that everywhere from cellars to lightning-conductor.
Must most respectfully disagree
As someone living in the United States I agree with most of what you have written. From my prospective, the religionists have taken control and I'm a little overwhelmed at how hateful, destructive, and arrogant they really are.Must most respectfully disagree
Government by religion is just a bad idea.
I hear you and I cannot avoid imagining an US countryman with a straw in his mouth talking like a Mark Twain character about "'em city fellas". As a matter of fact, your political opinions are way out of place here; your discussion about how the UN dared to defy the almighty US and subsequently lost face in a political affair has nothing to do with their recommendations. Technical documents from WHO, UN/CEFACT or even UNICEF carry a lot of weight for many people, not just "enlightened European sensibilities". Oh and by the way, your choice of words "enlightened", "European", "sensibility" and their derogative combination is quite telling.
US hate of UN is even sillier
Some points:US hate of UN is even sillier
with less public visibility )
to try to end the UN ( because No. 1 does not work that well anymore )
don't differ that much, they stem from the same culture.
Both seem to live in a world where everybody else is out to get them.
Therefore in "Selfdefence" no fairness is necessary.
> For over ten years Iraq flaunted UN resolutions while the UN blustered and took their bribes. Then the US tired of the silliness and decided to take independent action and again the UN blustered and did nothing.UN is a silly thing
> For over ten years Iraq flaunted UN resolutions while the UN blustered and took their bribes.UN is a silly thing
There seems to be an attitude in the US which is not just anti-UN and anti-EU but anti-internationalist in general (of course all generalisations are wrong). I don't know whether this is because Americans feel that the world is against them.UN is a silly thing
The problem is, there are lots of countries with sanctions against them that aren't resolved. A lot of them has been having them for a lot longer than Iraq too. The official reason, weapons of mass destruction, was, it seems, a lie. It's surprising to see Americans so accepting of having their country involved in a war that also costs thousands of American lives with the reason for the war being a lie, and noone (it seems) caring.UN is a silly thing
