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Fellow Me: No more Vienna Manipulations!

From:  Free Software Foundation Europe <press-AT-fsfeurope.org>
To:  pr-AT-fsfeurope.org
Subject:  [FSFE PR][EN] Fellow Me: No more Vienna Manipulations!
Date:  Sat, 03 Dec 2005 17:40:18 -0200



                              Fellow Me: No more Vienna Manipulations!

When FSFE's president first brought attention to the manipulation of
the "Vienna Conclusions" published by the Austrian government for the
United Nation World Summit on the Information Society (WSIS) as part
of the World Summit Award (WSA) in his blog, many people were shocked.

When details of how Microsoft and IFPI managed to remove Free Software
and insert promotion of Digital Restriction Management (DRM) in its
stead became known, more media took notice.

On Friday, 2 December 2005, GROKLAW now published [1] the entire story
and its evolution, causing many people to voice their frustration and
anger in the comments about this obvious disrespect for democratic
procedures and the blatant way in which it was conducted.

Several people have expressed their desire to do something against
such conduct and let others know how much they are disgusted by it. So
Georg Greve, president of FSFE, has provided [2] a way in which you
can let everyone know what YOU think about this, a button saying
"Fellow Me: No more Vienna Manipulations!" to link to the story and/or
Fellowship site at http://www.fsfe.org. This button has already been
picked up by a couple of companies and individuals.

Help to make others aware of what happened to this prestigious United
Nations document! Express your feelings about the way the Vienna
Conclusions were turned into the "Vienna Manipulations," let everyone
know this is NOT the way you want politics to be done, and help make
sure to prevent this kind of manipulation in the future by joining the
Fellowship of FSFE [3] and encouraging others to do the same.

Please help us make sure this will not be accepted by silent consent,
and that our disagreement will not be forgotten!

[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20210411031556/http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051130185547876
[2] http://www.fsfe.org/fellows/greve/freedom_bits/fellow_me_...
[3] https://fsfe.org/en/fsfeuser/register


About the Free Software Foundation Europe:

 The Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE), founded 2001, is a
 charitable non-governmental organisation dedicated to all aspects of
 Free Software in Europe. Access to software determines who may
 participate in a digital society. The the Freedoms to use, copy,
 modify and redistribute software - as described in the Free Software
 definition - allow equal participation in the information
 age. Creating awareness for these issues, securing Free Software
 politically and legally, and giving people Freedom by supporting
 development of Free Software are central issues of the FSFE.

 Further information about FSFE's work can be found at
 http://fsfeurope.org, get active yourself at
 http://fsfeurope.org/contribute/
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Tempest in a teapot

Posted Dec 4, 2005 19:32 UTC (Sun) by jmorris42 (guest, #2203) [Link] (26 responses)

> ...what happened to this prestigious United Nations document!

And here is the flaw at the heart of this lil ol tempest in a teapot. The only people who still associate the word "prestige" with the UN aren't very knowledgable about International Affairs and are therefore upset over this non-event.

In fact the only real news was Microsoft announcing it's political naivete by considering this event worth the expendeture of this much political capital. They CAN get away with this sort of thing, but not an unlimited number of times. The key to this sort of heavy handed work is to be very selective, applying it in the one key vote that matters. This one didn't matter.

The UN issues no end of pronouncements, most far on the other side of the sane/insane line. But nobody ever reads the stuff so it doesn't matter, because it tends to just be no account third worlders and dead ended western beaurecrats wanking. Had Microsoft not meddled so publicly this report would have been tossed in the unread pile with the rest. Yea Free Software would have got it's big day in the UN spotlight, and the world would have yawned. Now it will likely blow up. Losing the battle might just turn out to be a small victory for the larger cause of Free Software.

I would say it would also be a small loss for the US but it isn't. Again, all reasonable people wrote the UN off years ago as broken by design. The only people who still believe it it are either hopelessly clueless or (usually AND but I'll be nice) True Believers with such a near religious devotion to the idea of One World Government that nothing so trivial could shake their faith.

Tempest in a teapot

Posted Dec 4, 2005 20:13 UTC (Sun) by arcticwolf (guest, #8341) [Link] (10 responses)

And here is the flaw at the heart of this lil ol tempest in a teapot. The only people who still associate the word "prestige" with the UN aren't very knowledgable about International Affairs and are therefore upset over this non-event.

Actually, I think what you mean is "the only people who still associate the word "prestige with the UN are not from the USA". (No flamebait intended - it's true.)

UN is a silly thing

Posted Dec 5, 2005 2:27 UTC (Mon) by jmorris42 (guest, #2203) [Link] (9 responses)

> the only people who still associate the word "prestige with the UN are not from the USA

Perhaps, but let us hope there are still a silent majority of sane people in the non-US or all hope is lost. Really, the whole Iraq situation should have been blatent enough to end all doubt over the usefullness of the UN regardless of which side one takes in the matter.

For over ten years Iraq flaunted UN resolutions while the UN blustered and took their bribes. Then the US tired of the silliness and decided to take independent action and again the UN blustered and did nothing. Either way, they lacked both the will to enforce their edicts on tyrants like Saddam and the moral authority to lead Free nations. If even a third of Americans believed the UN had any moral authority the Democrats in the Senate would have had the backbone to have voted their convictions (unless you can believe that only thirteen Senators were pacifists) instead of the poll numbers.

Back to topic, forget influencing the big matters of Foreign Policy, imagine ANY UN paper or decree that would actually advance the cause of Free Software. Nope, not happening. Because what they say doesn't matter, not even to 'enlightened European sensibilities'. The EU itself might advance the cause of Free Software, if from nothing else from a not entirely irrational desire to escape the undue influence of a monopolistic software company who happens to be American. But even they wouldn't be overly influenced one way or the other by a UN position paper on the matter.

So lets nail Microsoft's chestnuts to the nearest tree over this, because they were foolish enough to get caught doing something very stupid. But not make the mistake of thinking this would have mattered in the least had it not been for the great good fortune of someone at Microsoft being stupid. No more than a token effort should be expended on future efforts for the same reason. At best something like this might have swayed a PHB somewhere who was on the edge. Win the fight on the ground and all the pompous 'Conclusions' from mindless government drones won't matter, lose the fight on the ground and we lose, period.

I think the War has entered a 'hot' phase and a decisive battle is underway, one we should all be focusing on. I'm talking about MA. If their CIO gets sacked for recommending a move to open, standards based computing the message will be heard loud and clear by every CIO in both government and industry, that not only does nobody ever get fired for buying Microsoft, refusing to buy Microsoft will be seen as a career limiting decision. On the other hand, if he wins the snowball effect could likely be devastating for the forces opposing. And on the gripping hand... many will see the fact this guy had to fight (assuming he wins) a major battle to prevent his whole department being subsumed by a new government oversight committee as reason for caution.

UN is definately not a silly thing

Posted Dec 5, 2005 3:03 UTC (Mon) by Los__D (guest, #15263) [Link] (2 responses)

Now if UN didn't get sidestepped constantly by USA they might have mattered quite a bit more...

The greatest chance to get peace, freedom and progress to the world today is the UN, and until the US learn to play in the sandbox with the rest of the world, we'll all suffer.

Defying UN, and stopping all the hard work every time, just to say "See what we said, it's broken!", is more or less the standard US way to deal with the UN, and it's sickening.

USA is setting out to become the greatest hindrance to progress in the world.

Must most respectfully disagree

Posted Dec 6, 2005 3:30 UTC (Tue) by leonbrooks (guest, #1494) [Link] (1 responses)

The UN is kind of like the Roman Catholic Church: if it wasn't all wrapped up in one umbrella organisation, there would be little if anything by way of obvious common ground between the various components. For example, we have a Pope (formerly the head of the Inquisition) who clearly favours some form of Intelligent Design and a Vatican Astronomer who does not; there are branches of Catholicism essentially indistinguishable from Pentecostals and others which are stern and silent; branches which are as Jesus-centric as any Evangelic congregation and others which are Mary-this and Mary-that everywhere from cellars to lightning-conductor.

Many UN components have clearly been driven well outside the realm of their mandate and/or common sense by special interests. Whether this counts as "corruption" or not is a question I can't answer for you, but it does so count for me.

The 40,000-odd dead -- mostly civilians -- in Iraq since the US started its most recent round of overt meddling in the Middle East is but a pale shadow of the bloodshed entailed in UN "peace efforts" over the years, to say nothing of the deaths which have resulted when a supranational organisation had an opportunity to intervene but instead sat on their hands, perhaps not even "viewing with concern". Some of the WHO programs are also pretty horrifying when viewed through independent glasses.

The UN as a whole is not a panacea for anything, although some of its components have done absolutely brilliant jobs within their own particular spheres of influence. The problem is those other components, which are part and parcel of the same UN.

If the UN as a whole was effective, there would be neither reason nor excuse for the USA to sidestep them.

Both the UN's waffling and having the US sidestep them is frightening for a non-US Westerner (and presumably for non-US non-Westerners too, although obviously I can't speak from personal experience). Both Dubya and his political opponents have shown great willingness to be arrogantly heavy-handed in dealing with others, and to turn a blind eye to actions which should have been policed by them if they were going to intervene at all.

It's difficult for many USians to understand just how they appear to the rest of the world and I can't think of a simple way to explain it to them -- perhaps think of their country as the quintessential obnoxious tourist in his faux-Hawaiian shirt complaining because the damn natives won't do things "properly" like they do back home (modulo a dash of historic myopia: rememering the good about "back home" but not the bad).

I think all an outsider needs to do to understand how this process works is to haunt US news sites for a week or so and have a careful look at how this news is prioritised, and at the perspectives exposed in the few stories which do mention the rest of the world. Remember that USians face this perspective every day, and try to imagine what kind of effect this constant, subtle training must have on one's mind. You may not like being looked down upon and treated as essentially unimportant, but you might begin to understand why a USian might do that kind of thing by default.

Must most respectfully disagree

Posted Dec 6, 2005 5:23 UTC (Tue) by jstAusr (guest, #27224) [Link]

As someone living in the United States I agree with most of what you have written. From my prospective, the religionists have taken control and I'm a little overwhelmed at how hateful, destructive, and arrogant they really are.
Government by religion is just a bad idea.

US hate of UN is even sillier

Posted Dec 5, 2005 8:25 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (1 responses)

I hear you and I cannot avoid imagining an US countryman with a straw in his mouth talking like a Mark Twain character about "'em city fellas". As a matter of fact, your political opinions are way out of place here; your discussion about how the UN dared to defy the almighty US and subsequently lost face in a political affair has nothing to do with their recommendations. Technical documents from WHO, UN/CEFACT or even UNICEF carry a lot of weight for many people, not just "enlightened European sensibilities". Oh and by the way, your choice of words "enlightened", "European", "sensibility" and their derogative combination is quite telling.

In fact, we can revert your silly argument: I'm sure a UN policy document would have a lot of weight in many places, maybe even for 'US fundamentalist neocons'. Otherwise, it's hard to see how a high Microsoft executive, an Austrian political representative and a prime minister can be bothered about it. Of course the UN has little actual power (luckily IMHO), so their recommendations do only matter if people follow them.

US hate of UN is even sillier

Posted Dec 5, 2005 11:19 UTC (Mon) by macc (guest, #510) [Link]

Some points:

1. The UN was instigated by the US ( furthering national gains
with less public visibility )

2. The current US public dismissal/hate is a wellgroomed thing
to try to end the UN ( because No. 1 does not work that well anymore )

3. General behaviour, tactics and methods of US Government and Microsoft
don't differ that much, they stem from the same culture.
Both seem to live in a world where everybody else is out to get them.
Therefore in "Selfdefence" no fairness is necessary.


UN is a silly thing

Posted Dec 5, 2005 12:32 UTC (Mon) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

> For over ten years Iraq flaunted UN resolutions while the UN blustered and took their bribes. Then the US tired of the silliness and decided to take independent action and again the UN blustered and did nothing.

Fourty thousand dead people in just 2 1/2 years, most of them civilian. Now that's progress, isn't it?

> Either way, they lacked both the will to enforce their edicts on tyrants like Saddam and the moral authority to lead Free nations.

Replacing a tyrant like Saddam with a tyrant like Bush doesn't sound like a worthy goal to me.

Every day I get more concerned about the new US attitude, that the world needs their leadership.

UN is a silly thing

Posted Dec 5, 2005 14:30 UTC (Mon) by epeeist (guest, #1743) [Link] (1 responses)

> For over ten years Iraq flaunted UN resolutions while the UN blustered and took their bribes.

If you want to base the invasion of Iraq on its defiance of the UN then you should also look at which other countries have outstanding resolutions against them. There are a number who have had resolutions outstanding for much longer than Iraq.

There seems to be an attitude in the US which is not just anti-UN and anti-EU but anti-internationalist in general (of course all generalisations are wrong). I don't know whether this is because Americans feel that the world is against them. From my reading and discussions I get the feeling that while people loath the American government with its ignorance, belligerence and corruption the attitude to Americans is friendly and welcoming.

UN is a silly thing

Posted Dec 8, 2005 10:16 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

There seems to be an attitude in the US which is not just anti-UN and anti-EU but anti-internationalist in general (of course all generalisations are wrong). I don't know whether this is because Americans feel that the world is against them.

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that currently the USA is the dominating (one could argue "only") superpower in the world.

If you are the biggest child on the playground (and the USA is not only the biggest, in for example military spendings they are larger than the next ten countries *combined*) you don't really see the value of having any overnationaly governing structure. Why would you ? The alternative is that the USA does precisely like it wants to.

For the same reason, I'm willing to bet that Microsoft don't see much value in having any sort of anti-trust legislation.

No marketplace can be healthy when one player is dominating it. I propose that the world of international politics is a marketplace in this context.

UN is a silly thing

Posted Dec 8, 2005 10:24 UTC (Thu) by ekj (guest, #1524) [Link]

The problem is, there are lots of countries with sanctions against them that aren't resolved. A lot of them has been having them for a lot longer than Iraq too. The official reason, weapons of mass destruction, was, it seems, a lie. It's surprising to see Americans so accepting of having their country involved in a war that also costs thousands of American lives with the reason for the war being a lie, and noone (it seems) caring.

Secondly, a lot of people are distressed that the US does not seem to themselves want to follow the rules. In most of the western world keeping people locked up for literally years without a trial, without a attorney, without any prospects for every being released is "against the rules".

The "Moral Authority" tends to suffer more than a tiny little bit from such nonsense. And again I'm flabbergasted that the overwhelming majority of Americans seem prepared to accept this.

true believers, heh

Posted Dec 4, 2005 22:41 UTC (Sun) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link]

> with such a near religious devotion to the idea of One World Government
> that nothing so trivial could shake their faith.
Well I'm well against that idea in the first place but you know what? Every sign I see is really supporting that suspection.

Both US and EU nice folks are working on it, sometimes kind of silently, sometimes with enough fanfare for us to distract, it seems....

just my EU.02

Tempest in a teapot

Posted Dec 5, 2005 2:06 UTC (Mon) by job (guest, #670) [Link] (9 responses)

I feel there may be something I'm missing here between the lines and I'm
not sure a technical forum is the right place to be having this
discussion, but the UN is most certainly not broken by design. It is
supposed to be a neutral place where nation states can meet and make
multilateral descisions.

It does that job fairly well, with everything from enterprise
communications protocols to aid to developing countries has had a place
to talk there. The main downside is that it is a tad bit expensive, like
most internation diplomatic arrangements, but it has been far more
successful than any other design that's ever been tried.

When the process fails it is because not all parties want to agree.
Especially the economic heavyweights of the world has often sabotaged the
process to gain it's own interests (the Kyoto protocol comes to mind).
But that's probably the expected outcome, you'd have to ask a diplomat if
you want to know more.

Tempest in a teapot

Posted Dec 5, 2005 9:08 UTC (Mon) by danielpf (guest, #4723) [Link] (7 responses)

The main flaw in the UN structure is the security council
with veto voices by superpowers. This prevents a democratic
outcome of important decisions and encourages unilateral behavior
of superpowers.

Another problem is the disproportionate financial support of the USA,
which gives to this country an easy control of the UN.

Tempest in a teapot

Posted Dec 5, 2005 13:42 UTC (Mon) by MortFurd (guest, #9389) [Link] (1 responses)

"Another problem is the disproportionate financial support of the USA,
which gives to this country an easy control of the UN. "

And whose fault would that be? Perhaps the fault of those countries (like Germany, where I live) who don't support the UN financially the way they could?

Jesus, Pete.

On the one hand the US gets bashed for not supporting the UN, then on the other hand they get bashed for supporting it to the point that it becomes bribery.

If the US support of the UN is such a problem, why don't the other member nations pony up?

Tempest in a teapot

Posted Dec 5, 2005 14:29 UTC (Mon) by danielpf (guest, #4723) [Link]

I was observing about the flaws of the UN structure, which
does not imply that the USA is the only country responsible
for its poorly democratic structure. But being big players, the
other superpowers (USSR then, Great Britain, China, France) do share
a large responsibility for the weaknesses of the UN.

Germany could not play a big role after WWII, and is not
presently in a position alone to modify the situation.
But probably the smaller countries could unit to request a
more democratic functionning of the UN.

disproportionate financial support

Posted Dec 5, 2005 18:55 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (4 responses)

Disproportionate by what measure? The US represents a huge proportion of the world's economic power, so if funding is proportional to GNP then it might look wrong but be right.

disproportionate financial support

Posted Dec 5, 2005 19:28 UTC (Mon) by danielpf (guest, #4723) [Link] (3 responses)

Basic democratic principles do not take the financial power as
a measure of political weight. At small scale responsible people
count each one vote despite large disparities in tax contributions.
The same should apply for a collection of nations if these
want to follow democratic principles as a method of sharing
power.

Several powerful countries are promoting democracy to other
weaker countries, but feel right to make major exceptions
for themselves. This is called hypocrisy.

disproportionate financial support

Posted Dec 5, 2005 19:36 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link] (2 responses)

Ok, we can discuss that if you want (I don't see how Vatican State can carry equal weight as India, and China + India might overwhelm every other country if weights are proportional to population); but we were speaking about financial support. If the US is almost 3 times as powerful economically as the next nation (Japan), then it might as well contribute the largest proportion of funds to the UN.

disproportionate financial support

Posted Dec 5, 2005 21:53 UTC (Mon) by danielpf (guest, #4723) [Link] (1 responses)

Suppose you live in Medina, WA. Do you really want a guy with this profile:

49, self made, net worth: $46.5 bil (down), married, 3 children, Harvard University drop out

contributes to most of the tax?

To keep some control on local matters, it would be wise that financial revenues do not come from a single guy like this. Rumors tell he suffers from a pathological need to control everything in the computers of his fellow citizens...

But many people (and countries) are lazzy, often they accept to be bought in exchange of freedom. Basically it is what happens with the UN largely financed by the US.

disproportionate financial support

Posted Dec 5, 2005 22:14 UTC (Mon) by man_ls (guest, #15091) [Link]

Now I get you. But you gave the answer yourself:
At small scale responsible people count each one vote despite large disparities in tax contributions. The same should apply for a collection of nations if these want to follow democratic principles as a method of sharing power.
Disparities in funding should not count when it comes to voting. Since nowadays power is money and money is power, it is difficult to counter this. In fact a guy with the same exact profile was declared a monopolist some years ago but nothing was done about it; therefore not Medina, not WA, but his own national government proved itself unable to deal with his company.

In comparison, the UN doesn't do a bad job most of the time; at least it can challenge the powers that be once in a while.

LWN.net only a technical forum?

Posted Dec 5, 2005 12:30 UTC (Mon) by coriordan (guest, #7544) [Link]

Techs can't stick their heads in the sand. As a wise man said, you can leave politics alone, but it won't leave you alone.

UN democracy or corporate governance ?

Posted Dec 5, 2005 11:01 UTC (Mon) by copsewood (subscriber, #199) [Link]

" The only people who still associate the word "prestige" with the UN aren't very knowledgable about International Affairs ... " Given that the alternative to democratic government is us electing politicians to take instructions from corporate lobbyists (i.e. government by corporate election) there is a lot more that could be done at UN level, in addition to their current very good work in health, education and peace keeping, which would incidently be rather more effective if the US paid the share of UN funding promised by previous US governments. In practice, introducing democratic government instead of corporate governance at the global level requires more secure sources of UN funding, e.g. The Tobin Tax . Of course as long as the US population believe they have more to gain from corporate world governance than everyone else, their corporate-owned media will persuade them that the UN lacks prestige.

Tempest in a teapot

Posted Dec 5, 2005 11:07 UTC (Mon) by jeroen (guest, #12372) [Link]

You seem to miss a few points:
  • At UN agency WIPO the next IP Laws are created. The DMCA also comes from a treaty there: http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/wct/trtdocs_wo033.html#P87_12240. Without changing the WIPO threaty, you can't throw the anti-circumvention clause from the DMCA (or EUCD). So when you are yawning because you don't know a bit about how things work and just repeat US government propaganda, the people at WIPO are making the next IP laws. It's very good that the FSF Europe is spending time there, because this is the place where changes need to happen.
  • The US decision making process and election system is broken. So is the EU decision making process (and the parties with the most influence don't even get elected directly there). Both 'governments' (the EU commission is almost like a government, but in other ways it isn't) are also corrupt. This is nothing different from the UN.
  • The reason the current US goverment doesn't like the UN is because the UN doesn't nod when they want to invent a country to steal their oil and the UN also doesn't nod on their large scale violation of human rights.

Tempest in a teapot

Posted Dec 5, 2005 15:47 UTC (Mon) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

All this discussions about the "effectiveness of the UN" seems to miss the fact that an organisation cannot do anything itself. It is the people involved that are doing to work. If the UN in failing it's job it's because its members are not interested in making it work.

IMHO, the whole Iraq affair showed me that the system *can* work as designed. It did its job but to think the UN can force any country to do anything is naive. The EU is in the same position, you agree to give up certain rights in exchange for others. If some country refuses to go along with some resolution, there is no court that can force the issue. The WTO formalises the issue by saying "if you break the rules, we can too". Which is international politics in a nutshell.

Sidenote: even regular courts have the same problem. You get a judgement that someone has to pay you X. If it doesn't happen you can keep getting judgements but none of it will get you the money.

A concensus was formed at the highest level for invading Afghanistan but was there for invading Iraq. We make the world ourselves, there is no higher entitty that will help us.

Blame WIPO, not the UN in general

Posted Dec 5, 2005 21:58 UTC (Mon) by rqosa (subscriber, #24136) [Link]

The Vienna Conclusion is "a text that [has] the official acceptance of the UN WIPO agency" (link). It is well-known that the World Intellectual Property Organization represents the interests of proprietary software companies.

However, other UN agencies support free software. For example, UNESCO sponsors the FSF/UNESCO Free Software Directory.


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