The EFF guide to EULAs
Many people treat EULAs with the same reverence they do the tags on mattresses that say, 'Do not remove this tag under penalty of law.' They scoff at the idea that anyone could enforce such a bizarre rule. Increasingly, however, we are seeing consumers and software developers threatened with lawsuits for engaging in the digital equivalent of ripping tags off a mattress."
Posted Feb 18, 2005 16:23 UTC (Fri)
by southey (guest, #9466)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Feb 18, 2005 19:24 UTC (Fri)
by Ross (guest, #4065)
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Posted Feb 20, 2005 5:54 UTC (Sun)
by zblaxell (subscriber, #26385)
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Posted Feb 18, 2005 17:46 UTC (Fri)
by clugstj (subscriber, #4020)
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Posted Feb 18, 2005 18:10 UTC (Fri)
by acmay (guest, #27555)
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Or it could be that people "hear" something and then repeat it as truth rather than finding a mattress tag and reading it.
Maybe they did read the 'execpt by consumer" part, threw away the tag and just forgot what it said.
Posted Feb 18, 2005 19:03 UTC (Fri)
by dsime (guest, #5764)
[Link] (1 responses)
They didn't used to have that "exception" it was added when the absurdity was widely known
Posted Feb 18, 2005 20:29 UTC (Fri)
by allesfresser (guest, #216)
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"[Pee-Wee looks at Mickey's hand as he is wearing one handcuff]
Posted Feb 18, 2005 21:50 UTC (Fri)
by dps (guest, #5725)
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Anything that attempts to claim your consumer rights do not apply has no legal force whatsoever in almost all countries, and it does not matter how or when you try to do it. The EU has said reverse engineering for compatability purpsoses is also a right, so attempts to disallow it might not have any legal force.
I am not a lwayer but *did* attend a seminar about the law in this area (quite a while ago).
Posted Feb 18, 2005 23:47 UTC (Fri)
by scripter (subscriber, #2654)
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Posted Feb 19, 2005 13:56 UTC (Sat)
by XERC (guest, #14626)
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Posted Feb 21, 2005 11:01 UTC (Mon)
by dark (guest, #8483)
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Then watch the same people who wrote your employment contract and NDA try to swallow the terms of the EULA :-)
I haven't had the chance to try this myself yet. I guess that makes me lucky.
Posted Feb 21, 2005 17:22 UTC (Mon)
by mdekkers (guest, #85)
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Posted Feb 22, 2005 18:39 UTC (Tue)
by NRArnot (subscriber, #3033)
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The user has then honestly never seen the EULA, the kid has but cannot ever be sued because of his age at the time he clicked "I agree".
IANAL but I suspect it's lawyer-proof even in the USA, at least until such time as they make it illegal for a minor to operate a computer. I would also hope, though not expect, that since the minor had no legal competence to agree to anything, any violation of one's legal rights by the installed software leaves its supplier seriously exposed to legal challenges!
Posted Feb 22, 2005 22:12 UTC (Tue)
by s_cargo (guest, #10473)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Feb 24, 2005 11:42 UTC (Thu)
by ekj (guest, #1524)
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Shoplifting is generally illegal. Installing and using software you legally bougth and paid for is generally legal.
There's a difference between asking someone to do something anyone knows to be illegal and asking someone to do something any reasonable person would consider legal.
Who is I in the "I Agree" button?
It is the important definition that missing from this. Preinstalled software doesn't have it.
The EFF guide to EULAs
Also: What about software you install at work, or for a friend on their ownThe EFF guide to EULAs
computer?
My employer had a vendor's application engineers come by the other month The EFF guide to EULAs
(if you're seriously considering paying six figures for software, they'll
not only send over a team of people to help you evaluate it, but they pay
for lunch too ;-).
We showed the vendor's guys to one of our computers we had set up for
them, and they ran through all of the software installation...except that
we were asked to step in each time to click on the "I Agree" buttons for
each of the dozen or so separately licensed modules.
So whoever "I" is, it's absolutely not the vendor or the vendor's
technical or sales staff, not even if our people say "yes, we agree, just
click the damn button so we can all go to lunch!" in front of a half-dozen
witnesses on both sides of the client-vendor divide. I think they expect
that if things end up in court, they'll be dusting the mouse for
fingerprints or something.
Normally an agreement binding on the corporation must be made by an
officer of the company, but I don't see many executives following IT
people around to kick on "I agree" buttons. It might be valid to review
each EULA once, then delegate the actual agreement-clicking to IT for all
future installs of the same software version...but I doubt that many IT
people forward EULA texts to their superiors for review either.
Incidentally, I tried a short quiz experiment...none of the vendor's own
staff knows what's in their own EULA either.
Actually, the mattress tags say "Not to be removed except by the consumer." So, this is a flawed analogy.Mattress Tag
Well the analogy could be that no one really reads the EULA or mattress tags.Mattress Tag
Mattress Tag
Thus the scene in "Peewee's Big Adventure" where Peewee meets the convict...:Mattress Tag
Pee-wee: What did you do?
Mickey: Well, I lost my temper and I took a knife and I uh-. Do you know those "Do Not Remove Under the Penalty of Law" labels they put on mattresses?
Pee-wee: Yeah.
Mickey: Well I CUT one of them off!
Pee-wee: Gee.
Mickey: Yeah, I have a real bad temper.
Pee-wee: Boy, I always thought that was the dumbest law."
At least in the UK, some of those nasty EULA terms are unenforceable. Legal advice consistently stated that the "by openning this envelope" language is, or at least was, legally null and void. Whether click through has any more legal force is not something I am competent to say.The EFF guide to EULAs
I predict that in twenty years, EULAs will be extinct (unless you want to install old software). EULAs are incredibly counter-productive for consumers, and make the installation of software quite a burden. I believe that one day, we will look back at EULAs and wonder why we put up with them, and why companies jumped on to the EULA-me-too-bandwagon.EULA extinction
Yes, ironically, I believe that the EULA-s will beEULA extinction
part of some sort of a law. Idea: everything is
clearified, it's clear, that if You use product X,
then You're hooked, and, as it's in the law, it's
easy to fight You in the court. The text of the
EULA will be auctioned to the highest bidder.
You could try this the next time you're about to install something draconian at work: instead of clicking on 'I Agree', copy the text of the EULA and send it to the company's legal department, and ask if it's ok to agree to this. Make sure you ask for an official opinion. For example, you could be in the process of documenting the procedure for installing this software, so you'd like to quote their answer.Fun lawyer tricks
I did this once - when I was working for a Government. Apperantly, the EULA encroached on National Sovereinty or somesuch, and the Government instantly started looking at Open Source.Fun lawyer tricks
I know someone who has a 9-year-old to do his installs. The EFF guide to EULAs
The EFF guide to EULAs
but I suspect it's lawyer-proof even in the USA
Of course it isn't "lawyer proof". Little different than having the 9 year old shoplift something for you.
There's a big difference:The EFF guide to EULAs