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I'm just sad

I'm just sad

Posted Sep 30, 2025 12:01 UTC (Tue) by csigler (subscriber, #1224)
In reply to: I'm just sad by nadir
Parent article: NixOS moderation team resigns

Is the above comment "polite, respectful, and informative"? Referring to those you disagree with as a "(bigot) faction," to me, is not. But that is merely one person's opinion.

Clemmitt


to post comments

I'm just sad

Posted Sep 30, 2025 12:15 UTC (Tue) by hkario (subscriber, #94864) [Link] (31 responses)

Letting us know that a big business and people closely aligned with Trump has outsized influence on the community is *very* informative.

Also, I suggest you to learn about the "paradox of tolerance" and the fact that tolerance is a social contract: people that don't subscribe to it, don't have any basis to request it from others.

I'm just sad

Posted Sep 30, 2025 12:26 UTC (Tue) by rbranco (subscriber, #129813) [Link] (22 responses)

> Also, I suggest you to learn about the "paradox of tolerance" and the fact that tolerance is a social contract: people that don't subscribe to it, don't have any basis to request it from others.

I suggest you to learn about Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance so you stop taking it out of context.

Stop here

Posted Sep 30, 2025 12:35 UTC (Tue) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link] (21 responses)

Before this turns into a big thread of folks talking past one another and sparring with each other, let's stop here.

Stop here

Posted Sep 30, 2025 17:06 UTC (Tue) by prokoudine (guest, #41788) [Link] (20 responses)

It's slightly disconcerting that moderation happened for that comment and not earlier in the thread where the word "bigot" was used.

Stop here

Posted Sep 30, 2025 17:54 UTC (Tue) by daroc (editor, #160859) [Link] (17 responses)

Unfortunately, there are only four of us. So when there are several comments in quick succession, we may only get to the thread afterward.

... but I agree that we could probably do a better job of indicating _why_ a particular subthread is asked to stop.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Sep 30, 2025 22:32 UTC (Tue) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (15 responses)

I would in general say that it often seems like there's a pattern of calling attention to the comment that calls someone out for bad behavior (e.g. flagging the point where people start arguing) rather than calling out the incitement of bad behavior.

Or to put it another way, LWN moderation sometimes comes across like an awful primary school teacher saying "I don't care who started it" and acting like everyone involved was *equally wrong*.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Sep 30, 2025 22:52 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

As someone who gets flagged a lot, I do feel sometimes that it's just clamping down on "off topic". That said, if things drift off topic that can let in bad behaviour.

In the old days when it was just Jon, there wasn't much calling out of off-topic (to be honest there wasn't much calling out), but LWN has grown and I think there's also more people looking for places they can stir up trouble (I gather there's quite a lot of Russian "espionage/subversion" going on), so I can understand the team clamping down.

But I do feel it doesn't seem there's much attempt to clamp down on the real bad boys - although the problem there is one person's bad boy is another person's "agent provocateur" is another person's "just asking questions".

I think PJ's rule of "if I wouldn't have it in my living room, I won't have it on my site" was a good one, but it relies on getting to know your posters ...

Cheers,
Wol

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 7:55 UTC (Wed) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link] (13 responses)

Moderation is not something anybody here at LWN wants to be doing; perhaps it is not surprising that we do not do it as well as some would like. When a thread is going off the rails, our first objective is to get it to stop; that seems rather more important than determining who should be decreed guilty for starting it. We also lack a ready strike team ready to react within milliseconds of the first bad post, sorry; we can only react after we see a problem.

When we do take action against a specific user, such as putting them on permanent moderation, we do not make public proclamations about it. You just don't see unpleasant stuff from that person anymore and never notice.

We are doing the best we can; if you see us as an "awful primary school teacher" I can only apologize. Time for recess!

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 10:53 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (12 responses)

I think the primary school teacher method works well. No one is singled out (mostly), and the lack of specific blame allows everyone to walk away.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 11:26 UTC (Wed) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (5 responses)

One common problem in moderation in general is that many people are very good at "calmly" inciting in a fashion that garners a well-needed negative response and/or call-out.

The net result can often be:

A) "Dispassionate" but toxic statement

B) Well-deserved call-out

Mod) This is getting heated, please stop

That comes across as the problem being exclusively the heat, not the toxic statement, or other toxic comments like people attacking the call-out for being "impolite" (where the implied "polite" would be "tolerant of intolerant/toxic people").

This is one of many patterns where it's important to flag the underlying problem, and not doing do lets people get away with trolling and incitement, repeatedly.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 11:50 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> That comes across as the problem being exclusively the heat, not the toxic statement, or other toxic comments like people attacking the call-out for being "impolite" (where the implied "polite" would be "tolerant of intolerant/toxic people").

This highly-relevant comic came across my feed just yesterday:

https://leftycartoons.com/2025/09/26/doin-discourse-with-...

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 3, 2025 10:02 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

I'm from a country with a PR-STV political system, where our politicians generally have to do their best to appeal not just to some "base", but also - at a minimum - still appear reasonable to the "bases" of at least a few other political parties. This system selects for politicians who can maintain broad-appeal in at least a few political dimensions. They still get it wrong sometimes, but when they do the system also allows the electorate to correct (cause you can /always/ give your #1 vote to whatever minority politician who is on the right side of some issue; without worrying that you will then inadvertently allow a disfavoured politician in; cause you also have #2, #3, etc. preference votes).

From my vantage point, no one in that cartoon looks good, at all, and it's a damning indictment of the political system that fostered it.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 18:02 UTC (Wed) by ferringb (subscriber, #20752) [Link] (2 responses)

> One common problem in moderation in general is that many people are very good at "calmly" inciting in a fashion that garners a well-needed negative response and/or call-out.

You pretty much nailed it on the head, in regards to the most dangerous version of behavior.

It's absolutely the hardest to keep in line w/ CoC- it never crosses the line blatantly, but the responders all get nailed as problematic or crossing the line in the sand. Eventually you get additions to CoC and moderation to try and address the lawyering, etc. Said additions to the rules just makes things worse, and harder to bring back to the spirit of the communities original intent.

This sort of thing is what I now watch for in communities; if it's left unchecked I just find somewhere else to go, assuming I have any choice in the matter. If I have to consume their code, sure, but even bug reporting is something I'd prefer *not* to do since I just don't want that crap in my life.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 22:27 UTC (Wed) by amacater (subscriber, #790) [Link] (1 responses)

Some people are Olympic class figure skaters - *just* over the line with something then quickly pulling back, then *just* over the line as a pattern of behaviour. That makes moderation and community building hard.
Many communities exist on a barely articulated common understanding that lasts until someone questions it.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 2, 2025 4:26 UTC (Thu) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

Once you identify the pattern of behavior, of someone skating on the line like that, you can recognize it as the toxic behavior it is and bounce the person out of the community. As the owner of the platform you don't need to put up with people who troll other users that way, and _that_ keeps the temperature down, conversation civil.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 11:47 UTC (Wed) by hkario (subscriber, #94864) [Link] (5 responses)

> allows everyone to walk away.

that only upholds the status-quo and is not conducive to constructive criticism

and yes, calling out toxic behaviour is constructive, even if it's not "polite"

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 11:51 UTC (Wed) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

+1 to this.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 14:36 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link] (3 responses)

Hmm.. if the LWN mods have come into a sub-thread in primary school mode then it is very safe to assume that the sub-thread has gone long past any kind of constructive criticism.

I'm not sure what you're advocating for, that the LWN mods then start to "constructively criticise" people in the thread? That may well just make things worse - it will make LWN worse. LWN is not mired in the US-culture-war caustic shite that other parts of the media/net are, to any significant extent. LWN commenters seem largely sensible and able to take hints to shut-down chains that have stopped being useful. Advocating for moderation solutions here that assume it is may be counter-productive, and cause it to MOVE TOWARDS that undesirable state of toxicity, as much as anything else.

Or ??

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 1, 2025 18:05 UTC (Wed) by madscientist (subscriber, #16861) [Link] (2 responses)

I suppose the issue being raised is that the moderation comment is visible to readers as a reply to the latest (at the time it was posted) comment in the thread. This could give the impression that the latest post was primarily responsible for the moderation comment.

I don't believe that this is how the LWN mods intend for it to be perceived: they are talking about the entirety of the thread not specifically about the post they're replying to.

I suppose the people concerned about this perception would prefer that the LWN mods should back-track the thread to find the post that appeared to be primarily accountable for the problematic digression, and reply to that rather than the "latest post".

I'm not sure how feasible that is; it is assigning blame much more directly and thus, could cause more arguments than it prevents. Is it enough for us all to understand that the reply is not intended to indict the direct parent post? Or maybe there needs to be some standard disclaimer language in moderation comments?

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 3, 2025 9:55 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Maybe.

OTOH, it's a fairly small and long-standing community here in the LWN comment threads. I suspect the vast majority of us are well aware of what a "Gentlemen, ladies, time to stop." style LWN-mod-comment means and does not mean.

And the breadth of injury that may result from a few misunderstanding appears to be very very limited and not worrying about.

Finally, LWN's resources are very limited - however much we may think there is some better system of moderation that LWN could apply, there is also the question of whether working towards that is in any way worth the effort and cost. And the marginal benefits may be tiny compared to the high cost in precious LWN editor time.

The system currently largely works. If the LWN editors see easy ways to improve it, sure, great. However, I see no great pressure for them to spend any significant amount of their precious time on that either. I'd rather see them doing the stuff we value them for - producing the excellent content of the site.

Where moderation steps in

Posted Oct 3, 2025 22:56 UTC (Fri) by bauermann (subscriber, #37575) [Link]

> I suppose the issue being raised is that the moderation comment is visible to readers as a reply to the latest (at the time it was posted) comment in the thread. This could give the impression that the latest post was primarily responsible for the moderation comment.

If this is the issue, perhaps it can be improved with a UI change? E.g.:

Instead of the moderation comment being a regular comment in the thread that went into the weeds, the UI could instead collapse that thread, and display the moderation comment on top. The user could still be able to click through the overlay and expand the thread to see it.

Of course, a reasonable argument can be made that there are better things to do with the limited resources available to develop the website UI.

Stop here

Posted Oct 3, 2025 0:11 UTC (Fri) by prokoudine (guest, #41788) [Link]

I did not quite expect to see this much of a snowball effect following my remark. Either way, I completely understand the kind of stress you have to deal with and trust that you exercise your best judgment.

Stop here

Posted Oct 2, 2025 9:49 UTC (Thu) by rbranco (subscriber, #129813) [Link] (1 responses)

It's a pity we missed the chance for people to get educated on the Paradox of Tolerance beyond their wikipedic knowledge. We got a meta-discussion instead justifying the use of the term "bigot" to make sure we stick to the Us vs Them dialectic that only benefits those in power and where we all lose.

Stop here

Posted Oct 2, 2025 10:36 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

> Us vs Them dialectic that only benefits those in power and where we all lose.

This is the essence of it. The elites - at whatever level of combination of conscious planning and emergent behaviour arising out of the class incentives - use all kinds of delineated rhetoric to divide and conquer the masses, on lines of ethnicity, religion, culture. But never, never along the lines of class.

And we lap it up. And on occasion, when the curtain briefly splits for a second, and we see how the elites supposedly representing different factions - "Dem" and "Republican", "Labour" and "Tory", "Fianna Fail" and "Fianna Gael", "Al Qaeda" and "CIA" - hobnob together, laughing and slapping each other's backs, few seem to see it.

Too distracted by fighting other little people about whatever little line, whatever flag, they've been cultivated to obsess over, to notice.

I'm just sad

Posted Sep 30, 2025 13:26 UTC (Tue) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (7 responses)

The original comment to me felt very well balanced. Strong language, maybe, but it's *dissenting* language, not aggressive or obnoxious.

And *dissent* is the first thing tyrants crack down on. Speaking as an outsider, it seems to me that many view disagreeing with Trump as a federal crime ...

Censor the language needed to discuss obnoxious behaviour, and you don't get rid of that behaviour. You just sweep it under the carpet where it will fester and get worse. In our world of "political correctness" that's what's happening - discussion is censored and evil triumphs.

Cheers,
Wol

I'm just sad

Posted Sep 30, 2025 22:52 UTC (Tue) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link] (6 responses)

Thank you, that's a good way of putting it.

"bigot", for instance, is a descriptive term. It's not "impolite" to describe someone that way; it's a problem for people to act bigoted. It is not "polite" to refrain from calling out bad behavior, and to state unequivocally that it isn't acceptable behavior. Attempting to frame that as "impolite" is a tool that people sometimes use to position such behavior as *not* unacceptable.

I'm just sad

Posted Oct 1, 2025 10:34 UTC (Wed) by intelfx (subscriber, #130118) [Link] (3 responses)

There is also a problem where accusations of "bigotry" are used simply to attack anything you disagree with. And then, when someone pushes back on your accusation, you can summarily dismiss that pushback on the grounds of "if you defend bigotry, then you are part of the problem, because bigotry is indefensible by definition" (i.e. roughly what you are saying here).

It is a very convenient political weapon.

Weaponization of negative descriptions

Posted Oct 1, 2025 11:11 UTC (Wed) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link] (1 responses)

That rhetorical technique works for most negative descriptions; if you describe someone as "X" (where X is something negative, like bigoted, foolish, stupid, dumb, arrogant, whatever), then, when someone pushes back on that, you can summarily dismiss the pushback on the grounds of "if you defend being X, then you are part of the problem, because being X is indefensible by definition".

The trick to it is that you skip over whether the accused is X, assuming that it's true and therefore whether it's OK to be X is what's being questioned, not whether the accused is X.

Moderating a distributed community requires the moderators to spot the leap from "I'm not bad" to "defending being bad is not possible", and call it out - if someone's been accused of being bigoted, but claims they're not, the question is not whether bigotry is defensible or not, but rather whether the accused's words and deeds rise to the level of bigotry.

Weaponization of negative descriptions

Posted Oct 3, 2025 17:34 UTC (Fri) by zahlman (guest, #175387) [Link]

Well said.

It is, in fact, impolite to call people "bigots". First off, because it makes a serious accusation that commonly brings real-world consequences, while not necessarily being supported by the facts. To say that someone is being "described" as a bigot begs the question: it assumes that the target actually expressed bigotry. Second, because bigotry is a characteristic of conduct, not of identity. There is a large difference, for example, between calling someone a "liar" and claiming a statement to be "a lie" (which in turn is a stronger claim than simply saying that it is "untrue").

Of course it is a problem for people to express bigotry. (Here I understand that we use the term in the general sense of expressing unjustified prejudice, particularly towards groups of people defined by identity characteristics, rather than in the dictionary sense of general narrow-mindedness or obstinacy.) However, this must be understood to be true of all forms of bigotry, not just those that a moderation team finds sympathetic.

The kinds of "call-outs" that people defend in the name of holding back supposed "bigots" is commonly demeaning, grossly inaccurate and frankly beyond the pale. It is frankly wrong to suppose that "framing" this as impolite is "a tool that people sometimes use to position such behavior as *not* unacceptable". This is an entirely unsubstantiated claim. The plain reading of such accusations of impoliteness is quite literal and transparent. People should simply not throw around such language in public, and moderation teams had better be able to make a fully reasoned argument that would be convincing to any reasonable person, not just to people with aligned political views.

I'm just sad

Posted Oct 1, 2025 11:45 UTC (Wed) by josh (subscriber, #17465) [Link]

There are a whole raft of meta-level problems that arise.

For clarity, it is indeed the case that it is important to be accurate, and not use a term that doesn't apply.

But also, people who wish to be bigoted (or wish to not care whether they are or not), and who also don't want to experience any negative consequences themselves, have a vested interest in applying a wide variety of tactics: trying to lower or abolish standards, attacking callouts as "impolite", trying to act as if the person calling them out is bringing politics into things but the person being bigoted is not, trying to position themselves as the "default" and equating "politics" with "non-default politics", and a hundred other things.

Sometimes these are intentional tactics, sometimes they're picked up by osmosis, and sometimes they're just the natural consequence of trying to defend and normalize one's behavior by any available means rather than reflecting on it or changing it. In general, people who are doing something wrong and don't want it to be wrong have many different tactics, and the better they are at it, the closer it can get to attacking epistemology and the connections between words and reality.

In short: it's important to be right when calling out bad behavior. It's also important to recognize the common rhetorical pattern of not refuting an accusation of bad behavior but instead attacking and impugning and narrowing the very concepts and words that allow calling out bad behavior.

I'm just sad

Posted Oct 3, 2025 0:02 UTC (Fri) by prokoudine (guest, #41788) [Link] (1 responses)

> "bigot", for instance, is a descriptive term. It's not "impolite" to describe someone that way; it's a problem for people to act bigoted.

Let's not muck about. There's a whole range of words, "bigot" included, that are casually used today for name-calling, well outside their original meaning.

This little game of calling the other party bigoted or nazi or other interesting words to establish one's own moral superiority has become quite tiresome. There's a saying where I come from: in an asylum, whoever is first to grab a white coat gets to be the doctor.

I wish it didn't feel like we are all in an asylum. Alas...

I'm just sad

Posted Oct 3, 2025 0:36 UTC (Fri) by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296) [Link]

It's quite indisputable that bigots (and others of even more dangerous persuasions; i.e. fascists) do in fact exist in real life; that the words may be used as "name calling" doesn't mean that they're no longer subjects of serious conversation.

We might wish to be free from hearing "impolite" discourse, but that can lead in very dangerous directions when taken too far. Martin Luther King Jr. had a lot to write on the subject awhile back.

Unusual for this stuff to come up in tech, but I think there's enough going on in the NixOS world re: Arduril that looks perhaps not entirely proper that we should be careful not to dismiss out of hand.


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