Some comments are just… beyond comment
Some comments are just… beyond comment
Posted Sep 23, 2025 18:33 UTC (Tue) by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)Parent article: An unstable Debian stable update
> I VIOLENTLY disagree with that.
>
> systemd-networkd is WIDELY used in professional environments, especially
> where VLANs and Bridges are in use, BECAUSE it can handle those
> configuration cases and does it in a way that is VERY convenient to
> configure with configuration management methods.
>
> […]
>
> I find your attitude to just shrug this away with "optional component"
> and "wait for the next point release" insultingly unacceptable.
A message like this would be borderline unacceptable within any "professional" setting, but directed at an unpaid volunteer it's just gross, no matter what one things about the quality of the volunteer's work. You just don't talk people like that, and you don't demand free labour in all caps.
If you live on that level of entitlement and want that level of support buy an enterprise distribution, and yell at their support if things go wrong; they at least get paid to read shit like that.
Posted Sep 23, 2025 18:45 UTC (Tue)
by Trou.fr (subscriber, #26289)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 23, 2025 20:51 UTC (Tue)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link] (3 responses)
I just clicked the link to the bug report in the article, as an outsider, and more or less immediately stumbled over really bad messages. While frustration can explain some of these to some degree, I believe it's no excuse for most of these messages and the behaviour exhibited by them.
On second thought, I guess what sort of shocked me really is that this tone and this way of communicating appears to be absolutely normal to all participants (except for the maintainer). There's no opposition, let alone moderation, and even the worst messages go absolutely unchallenged.
I wouldn't want to work in an environment as toxic as what I've seen in that bug thread, and I'm sort of in awe that there are actually people who volunteer their time to deal with that. And I can't help but believe that a certain amount of dismissive behaviour on the side of the maintainer is simply an acquired defence against such an environment. What goes around comes around as they say.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 11:54 UTC (Wed)
by jhe (subscriber, #164815)
[Link] (2 responses)
The systemd developer got Baratt's mail wrong, wrote an inflammatory dismissal and set the precedent for the toxic tone themselves. The thread was fine before that.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 17:08 UTC (Wed)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link] (1 responses)
I can only guess that it's not the first time the package maintainer had to deal with stuff like this, so I totally understand (understand, not excuse, mind you) a certain dismissive attitude acquired from having gone through many such unpleasant interactions.
Posted Sep 25, 2025 13:09 UTC (Thu)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link]
Posted Sep 24, 2025 0:05 UTC (Wed)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link]
When you see things as heated as this, there's always a backstory, and it's often well worth it to follow that backstory and ask why things got to that point.
When people in a position of responsibility are checked out, heedless of the consequences of poor decisionmaking, and ignoring all feedback - things deteriorate fast.
Posted Sep 23, 2025 19:02 UTC (Tue)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (37 responses)
Correct.
Just revert the breaking voluntary free labour change that broke stable.
Saying that
is an obviously incorrect thing to do during a stable release.
Free labour doesn't mean that you get to break something without handling the consequences.
Posted Sep 23, 2025 20:07 UTC (Tue)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link] (35 responses)
You'll find that my comment was concerned not with the quality of maintenance or the overall handling of this bug, but exclusively with the user's behaviour. I'm not interested in a discussion about whether the maintainer handled the bug appropriately or not, which is precisely why I did not comment on it, and which is why I'd appreciate if you'd either reply on the actual point of my comment, or just not at all.
If you have nothing to say about the behaviour of the users in that thread, silence is an option.
Posted Sep 23, 2025 20:16 UTC (Tue)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (5 responses)
I replied to all of your comment. I just don't quoted all of it for netiquette reasons.
Posted Sep 23, 2025 20:34 UTC (Tue)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link] (4 responses)
All I was commenting on was the reaction of the users, and how I find it in appropriate, gross really, "no matter what one thinks about the quality of the volunteer's work" (to quote one of the more relevant parts of my original comment).
Yet, you commented on the quality of the volunteer's work and the "correct answer" and how none "get(s) to break something without handling the consequences".
From my standpoint, there's not much of a connection between my comment and your reply. I tried to clarify that but that clarification was apparently lost on you. Do forgive me for believing that you didn't read what I wrote; it's just the only explanation I have for the disconnect between my comment and your reply to it.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 6:30 UTC (Wed)
by mb (subscriber, #50428)
[Link] (3 responses)
Yes, that's what you wrote in the first comment.
>I don't think you did. Twice. [..]
This is a rude reply, btw.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 6:33 UTC (Wed)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link]
Posted Sep 24, 2025 7:06 UTC (Wed)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link]
I'm sorry for having come across rude, please do accept my apology. I guess this shows how hard it is to live up to one’s ideals. In my defence at least I didn't use all caps :) Again, sorry for those parts of my comment, I hope we're good again. No hard feelings?
Posted Sep 24, 2025 11:20 UTC (Wed)
by bluca (subscriber, #118303)
[Link]
This never happened, fixes were ready and waiting before anyone even noticed or knew about it. Timeline with receipts: https://lwn.net/Articles/1039157/
Posted Sep 24, 2025 0:08 UTC (Wed)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (26 responses)
I think a lot of us have seen it and are quite a bit more concerned with the maintainer's behaviour.
If a maintainer is going to ignore bug reports and play the victim when people get angry, we need a new maintainer.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 3:47 UTC (Wed)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (2 responses)
...I hear Jia Tan is looking for another gig.
Posted Sep 25, 2025 2:41 UTC (Thu)
by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 25, 2025 7:23 UTC (Thu)
by chris_se (subscriber, #99706)
[Link]
You are using humor to do nothing else than insult someone. That's not a strongly worded disagreement, that's a personal attack, and in my opinion that IS crossing a line.
The other message criticized a specific action (or set of actions), here you are disparaging the totality of all contributions someone ever made. Messages such as this make the life of those who want to express their disagreement without personal attacks so much harder. In my opinion your statement here is much, much worse than the dismissiveness to the impact and severity of the bug shown from the other side.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 4:42 UTC (Wed)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link] (22 responses)
That's fine, but why reply to me with that concern when I did not comment on that at all?
> If a maintainer is going to ignore bug reports and play the victim when people get angry, we need a new maintainer.
If that had evidently happened, I might agree with you, but things are not that clear (they seldom ever are) and I interpret that situation quite differently.
But I believe we have very different ideas of "clear basic professionalism and understanding of our responsibilities" (your words), and whom we expect it from, which probably makes us see this situation from very different standpoints, and personally I must admit that I'm very happy to work in environments and communities where your standpoint is not prevalent.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 5:11 UTC (Wed)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (21 responses)
I hope nobody has to rely on your work for anything critical!
In my community, I take a firm stance that responsibilities and clear and accurate communication come first; the point of what we do is to deliver code that people can trust and rely on, and if there's a screwup we need to know about it - and that generally means it'd be my screwup, the buck stops with me.
I've explicitly stated on quite a few occasions if my code screws up and ruins someone's day, I don't care if the bug report comes with swearing; or if someone working on my code has a good frustration filled rant - I want to hear it, and I'm going to bake and mail a plate of cookies to the first person that has a good (i.e. actual information content) rant about my code.
Strangely enough, this builds an atmosphere of trust, and I find things tend to stay pretty calm and relaxed among those of us who actually work together.
You have to accept that mistakes _will_ happen, and those mistakes can ruin people's days - or weeks - and if you're prioritizing your own work environment and safety cocoon to the point you don't want to hear about that, you're just pushing the problem elsewhere and eventually it's going to come back to bite you.
Like this poor guy.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 7:18 UTC (Wed)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link] (20 responses)
I certainly don't do and wouldn't want to do critical work unpaid in my own free time. I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of messages such as the one I quoted, after having volunteered my time to build something people can use for no charge.
Professionally, I do work on critical systems, and strangely enough, I find that we can build a culture of responsibility and mutual trust without swearing, by being nice and kind to reach other, and treating or peers as we'd like to be treated ourselves. Perhaps that's the corporate world you were talking about elsewhere, but when the alternative is this, I rather take corporate culture any day.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 11:59 UTC (Wed)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (5 responses)
> I certainly don't do and wouldn't want to do critical work unpaid in my own free time. I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of messages such as the one I quoted, after having volunteered my time to build something people can use for no charge.
That's fine. We have a 2x2 grid here. People who do and don't work on mission critical stuff. People who do and don't do it in their own time. You say you're quite happy NOT to be in the quadrant "Mission Critical, Own Time". I'd hate to be in it, too.
The problem is people who (a) ARE in that quadrant, and (b) throw a hissy fit when notified about a bug.
My personal attitude is if you're working on Mission Critical, then Own Time should not enter the equation. Equally, while professionalism comes into it, provided the reporter doesn't abuse *me*, I don't care about language. People get frustrated, people have to vent, let them get over it and then you can fix the problem, which is the most important thing.
Thing is, if the people on *both* sides of bug report get heated, that's when things go wrong. My real bugbear is when people are so busy shouting "fix it", they are completely unable to hear me saying "fix what!?". And when I do nothing they just scream even louder. If someone is screaming, you both need to shut up and take a step backwards.
Cheers,
Posted Sep 25, 2025 19:53 UTC (Thu)
by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325)
[Link] (4 responses)
I have *never* seen anyone speak to me, or any of my colleagues, in such a disrespectful tone as the message quoted upthread, no matter how bad things were. From where I sit, it is a matter of simple observation: You do not need to be rude in order to work on mission-critical systems, and that fact does not change just because the fecal matter made contact with the Aperture Science Rotational Airflow Enhancing Device.
Of course, the difference is that Google can and does fire people who make a habit of being rude (and fail to respond to lesser interventions). Internet communities, as a rule, are significantly worse at doing that.
(Disclaimer because there will otherwise be a slew of replies claiming that I'm trying to justify how bluca handled this bug: I am doing no such thing. It is entirely possible for both parties to be in the wrong here. If you want to argue over bluca's handling of the bug, take it to a different sub-thread, because I frankly do not care.)
Posted Sep 25, 2025 20:23 UTC (Thu)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (2 responses)
It's wonderful for the people who get to work there.
But you, like a lot of people, are focusing on rudeness as the issue, when a lot of us are going "uh, machines going down on update, intransigent maintainer with a pattern of not acknowledging or fixing his own mistakes, blame shifting, and forcing other people to cover - yeah, I'd be pissed too".
Do you think people at Google would maintain their calm demeanor if you had to keep everything running while dealing with that?
I think you might have cause and effect a bit backwards :)
Posted Sep 27, 2025 19:56 UTC (Sat)
by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
[Link]
Yes, because if you care about any success metric, then communication is the most important thing by far. Building something exceptional _alone_ never goes anywhere. I mean it can be fun and beautiful but that's all. If it's really exceptional _and_ re-usable, then it's sometimes rescued by other people who can work together. And then the "inventor" complains he was misunderstood. He was. Often it stays unused on the shelf. Everyone can admire it but that's all.
No maintainer is perfect, very far from it. But any widely distributed component is direct evidence that the maintainer has at least the most basic communication skills. If not, then either the maintainer or the component gets forked or replaced sooner or later. Simple as that. The same cannot be said about entitled users shouting on the Internet, there's just no evidence on their side.
> Do you think people at Google would maintain their calm demeanor if you had to keep everything running while dealing with that?
They would stay professional long enough for the problematic person to be demoted or transferred to another place better suited for them. If that does not happen or takes too long, then professional people try to find a another job in a proper workplace.
Posted Sep 28, 2025 12:37 UTC (Sun)
by smurf (subscriber, #17840)
[Link]
Two sides of the same coin, effectively.
The point is that you need to get rid of the whole coin, i.e. "fix" both sides (for whatever value of "fix"), if you want to get a handle on the problem.
Posted Sep 25, 2025 21:14 UTC (Thu)
by madscientist (subscriber, #16861)
[Link]
I try to follow the old internet protocol advice "be strict in what you send and lenient in what you receive", when dealing with other people. You never know what is happening in someone's life. The question is not whether this particular comment is abrasive. The question is, is this a pattern of behavior or is it an aberrant, in the moment reaction? If it's a one-off, give grace and look the other way. If it's a pattern of behavior then something should be said. If it keeps happening after that, then something needs to be done.
But that goes for the maintainer, too, not just the commenter. I think it's disingenuous to concentrate only on one side of the conversation. It's idealistic, not realistic, to say "it doesn't matter what one side does, there's no excuse for the other side to behave in anything less than a fully professional manner".
Posted Sep 24, 2025 14:27 UTC (Wed)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (10 responses)
You're missing the cause and effect here.
In the open source world, where no one can get fired for screwing up, having a culture based on responsibility is even more important than in the corporate world (though still important there, I'd say!).
If you build your culture on "I'm only going to interact with people who are nice to me" - that's not the culture of responsibility you want, and you'll find lack of accountability leads to lack of trust, which leads to exactly the sort of drama this LWN article is talking about.
If you build your culture on "taking responsibility for our work comes first", then you'll find people are a whole lot nicer to you.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 15:34 UTC (Wed)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (6 responses)
....This goes both ways, because the *user* also shoulders a burden of responsibility too.
> If you build your culture on "taking responsibility for our work comes first", then you'll find people are a whole lot nicer to you.
That may work amongst "peers" (ie other developers) but end-users don't care about that.
I absolutely "take responsibility" for my work. But that is going to happen on *my* schedule/availability, completely detached from your sense of urgency. You don't like that? <taps on the "PROVIDED AS-IS, NO WARRANTY WHATSOEVER" sign>. You are not buying from a supplier, you are a raccoon digging through dumpsters for free code. [1]
Posted Sep 24, 2025 15:46 UTC (Wed)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (2 responses)
Because code doesn't get to be truly bulletproof without testing and QA, and that's done by users. Meaning, I need them, and I need them to be willing to go to the effort of filing good bug reports, and on complex bugs I need them to be willing to spend the time to work with me on chasing things down. Which means I have to be willing to send the time to work with them, it has to go both ways.
A "take it or leave it attitude" only works if you really don't need someone, otherwise it's a great way to make people not want to work with you.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 16:07 UTC (Wed)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (1 responses)
...Please keep in mind that you are among the very few that are paid to work on "your code"
The overwhelming majority of us are not, and that changes the equation considerably.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 16:22 UTC (Wed)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link]
A lot of people want to be a part of something like that.
Posted Sep 25, 2025 2:44 UTC (Thu)
by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
[Link] (2 responses)
And precisely that is what allowed it to reach such a well-accepted status in commercial environments.
Posted Sep 25, 2025 11:19 UTC (Thu)
by kpfleming (subscriber, #23250)
[Link]
Posted Sep 25, 2025 12:38 UTC (Thu)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
Pray tell, where can this "guarantee" be found? Because Debian's "social contract" [1] provides nothing of the sort.. and isn't legally binding anyway.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 17:16 UTC (Wed)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link] (2 responses)
I guess I understand what you're trying to say, but no amount of arguing is going to convince me that swearing and being yelled at is essential to building a culture of responsibility in open source.
Or, to put it another way, if it is really necessary to build a culture of responsibility, as I believe you're trying to argue, then I firmly believe something's seriously wrong in open source, and, pardon me for saying that, I'm all the more happy that I'm not part of this open source thing.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 17:51 UTC (Wed)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (1 responses)
Well, good for you then?
Posted Sep 24, 2025 18:02 UTC (Wed)
by jzb (editor, #7867)
[Link]
Posted Sep 24, 2025 14:48 UTC (Wed)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (2 responses)
"Being nice" means doing our work well, so that other people can rely on it instead of having to spend a bunch of time recovering from our mistakes, and taking responsibility for our mistakes when they do happen.
If you want to talk about "being nice", you have to include that. Otherwise you're saying - "I can do whatever quality of work I feel like and you guys just have to put up with it, neener-neener!". No thank you :)
Posted Sep 25, 2025 13:24 UTC (Thu)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link] (1 responses)
While I am more-than-typical to harp on code quality and maintainability, there is a definite difference between the level of quality one can expect from a back-burner project to one that has a salary-like funding behind it. For example, I have have a number of projects on Github that have external users. But I do not have the time to *support* these users beyond things that also scratch my itch or answering questions in issues. This is where the NO WARRANTY clause really comes into play. You're running bcachefs as a project that you *want* to be used far-and-wide and are, appropriately, taking things as seriously as one should when it comes to code quality (nb. I have not actually looked at bcachefs code to vet it on my own scale, but will take your word for it). But for a tool I publish the source for (because I believe in publishing such code) that I use to help with task juggling? Patches welcome, but if it interferes with my workflow, feel free to fork.
Posted Sep 25, 2025 13:51 UTC (Thu)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link]
Only some open source software is critical infrastructure, and it's of course a very broad spectrum. Some little library might turn out to be useful and start getting used all over the place, and if you were never expecting or planning for that... well, that's a whole 'nother topic on things we haven't yet learned how to deal with :)
We really do need better funding and support structures in place, assuming businesses will fund the stuff they need doesn't work because businesses are always focused on their quarterly bottom line. Europe's making baby steps in this direction, but we have a long way to go.
But if you're explicitly writing code for a domain that has a prior history of being critical infrastructure, the expectations are high. There are real consequences - for other people - for going in and claiming a job as yours, and then doing it badly. If you're not up to the job, that's ok! let it wait for someone else to tackle it!
Posted Sep 24, 2025 2:55 UTC (Wed)
by interalia (subscriber, #26615)
[Link] (1 responses)
That seems overly aggressive, tone-wise, which is broadly the criticism you yourself were making about that email.
Whether or not they misread your comment, is the above really justified?
Posted Sep 24, 2025 4:44 UTC (Wed)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link]
Posted Sep 25, 2025 2:40 UTC (Thu)
by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
[Link]
Posted Sep 23, 2025 19:03 UTC (Tue)
by npws (subscriber, #168248)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 23, 2025 20:13 UTC (Tue)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link]
What I'm saying is that the quoted message in particular, but also quite a few others, are entirely inappropriate in and by themselves, regardless of any valid criticism.
Is that what you disagree with? Do you believe that the quoted message is an appropriate way of talking to someone?
Posted Sep 24, 2025 15:21 UTC (Wed)
by chris_se (subscriber, #99706)
[Link] (2 responses)
I only see one thing in that message that I could consider objectionable, and that would be the word "VIOLENTLY" - I would have preferred if that had been "vehemently" or something similar. And if your only objection is to that word: fair, that shouldn't have been there in my opinion.
But the rest of the message you quoted?
The second paragraph you quote is completely neutral and I can't see what you could even remotely find objectionable about that.
And the final paragraph is definitely very strongly worded, no doubt, but even here I don't see how that is over the line.
You are of course completely right that nobody can demand free labor. And if Luca had just said: "hey, I don't have the time for this right now", or "systemd-networkd is too much outside of my wheelhouse", or even "I really need help with this", I don't think people would have been up in arms about that. Rather it's the dismissiveness over both the severity of the issue and the amount of users affected that caused the strong reactions.
Posted Sep 24, 2025 17:02 UTC (Wed)
by lunaryorn (subscriber, #111088)
[Link]
The all caps yelling, the wording ("violently disagree", "insultingly", ...), and the overall entitlement in that quote are pretty far over my line when it comes to talking to an unpaid volunteer, especially since I presume that specific user is using Debian in a commercial setting (judging from their talk about "professional environments"). And judging by the article the maintainer also felt that some comments were over their line.
As said elsewhere in my opinion you can probably talk like that to someone you pay (a lot), but just not to someone you're not the least way compensating for their work, regardless of what you think about the quality of that work.
But I already learned from other responses that my line is quite different from other people's lines here, so we probably don't need to continue here, as we likely end up agreeing to disagree anyway. I'm still slightly shocked at that, but then again it doesn't really concern me. I don't do much open source beyond personal pet projects anymore, and where I work we luckily communicate quite differently.
But if that's what you're expected to deal with when volunteering your time to maintain things, I'm not surprised that it's hard to find maintainers these days.
Posted Sep 25, 2025 2:47 UTC (Thu)
by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
[Link]
Posted Sep 25, 2025 2:39 UTC (Thu)
by mirabilos (subscriber, #84359)
[Link]
Posted Sep 29, 2025 16:09 UTC (Mon)
by jubal (subscriber, #67202)
[Link]
Some comments are just… beyond comment
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This (or fixing the bug) is the only correct answer to this kind of breakage.
>this is just a minor issue with a particular corner case of a custom config
If your free labour broke something and you don't have the time to fix it, revert it.
Some comments are just… beyond comment
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And I find it appropriate to reply with clear words to clear breakage and to clear unwillingness to fix the breakage caused.
That was my reply to you. And I explained why.
>that clarification was apparently lost on you [..]
>you didn't read what I wrote [..]
>it's just the only explanation
They very thing you are complaining about.
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I'm obviously not interested in coming after the maintainer and tried to put focus on an another aspect of the situation.
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Wol
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> And precisely that is what allowed it to reach such a well-accepted status in commercial environments.
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Let's stop here
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the actual problem is that boccassi is unpleasant to deal with in most public communication settings because of his communication style (abrasive, dismissive, frequently insulting). this is not the first time this behaviour created or increased friction, and made a simple, fixable issue into a flamefest.
and it doesn't matter if he's privately the loveliest of the nice people around; the image he projects publicly will overshadow that, and adds to the bad reputation of systemd maintainers' social skills.
Some comments are just… beyond comment