Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 0:40 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642)
Parent article: Recent disruptive changes from Setuptools

> Regarding front-end tools failing to expose warnings, Bravalheri proposed that installers should show build warnings to end users by default.

Dear Lazyweb, how can hiding build warnings ever be considered a good idea? Baffles me.

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 6:44 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (8 responses)

> Dear Lazyweb, how can hiding build warnings ever be considered a good idea? Baffles me.

Do you really want no-clue-bies to be shown an endless stream of warnings? I get p***ed off with dealing with people who don't want to understand. Do I really want to have to deal with even more people who *can't* understand?

Don't get me wrong, hidden warnings I don't know how to find are a real pita. But no-clue-bies panicking over harmless warnings they don't understand are worse.

Cheers,
Wol

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 9:17 UTC (Thu) by ceplm (subscriber, #41334) [Link] (1 responses)

Yes and yes. This is UNIX, we are supposed to be all consenting adults here. If somebody doesn’t understand what happens when he runs `rm -rf`, he will learn soon.

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 13:57 UTC (Thu) by zahlman (guest, #175387) [Link]

Well, no, that's the thing. Python and pip are cross-platform, and the same build process can be triggered on a Windows end-user's machine just as easily.

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 19:50 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (5 responses)

> Do you really want no-clue-bies to be shown an endless stream of warnings?

1. People _building_ things are not supposed to be "no-clue-bies", Unfortunately https://lwn.net/Articles/1022219/, but even then people running "pip install ..." are supposed to be somewhat computer-literate.

2. Countless times, I was the very first one to stop some old build warning in a project with a _very experienced_ team. Why? Because NO ONE looks at build logs unless the build fails. And even when it fails, people try to read as little as they can. Only what they need to fix the build and carry on. So, for the sake of the 0.0001% developers who do look at build warnings, do NOT hide build warnings - ever. Of course this does not means: "spam with the build logs with a ton of garbage". But a "warning" should by definition not be garbage.

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 20:08 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (3 responses)

> 1. People _building_ things are not supposed to be "no-clue-bies", Unfortunately https://lwn.net/Articles/1022219/, but even then people running "pip install ..." are supposed to be somewhat computer-literate.

You're the one who keeps going on about how *users are not programmers*.

Someone cut-n-pasting instructions they found elsewhere isn't going to be expected to understand (much less fix) these warnings. They just want to use that software.

(At $dayjob-1, those users consisted mostly of PhDs playing around with bleeding-edge research tools. I'm the one who had to somehow shoehorn that "works for me on $desktop" mudball into something that could make it through a CI environment for deployment onto custom hardware that had some very strict python packaging requirements due to interaction with $$$ EDA tooling)

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 23:20 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link] (2 responses)

> > are supposed to be somewhat computer-literate.

> You're the one who keeps going on about how *users are not programmers*.

I know it's getting more and more difficult to accept nowadays but it's generally impossible to classify people in only two binary categories. Someone using a command-line can be neither an iPhone user, nor a developer. There are plenty other literacy levels in the middle. You just gave a great example yourself.

> Someone cut-n-pasting instructions they found elsewhere isn't going to be expected to understand (much less fix) these warnings. They just want to use that software.

So what?

If they copy/paste instructions they don't understand, they ALSO ignore warnings they don't understand; fact! So, there is absolutely zero need to hide any of those warnings (as long as they don't fill up the terminal). It makes absolutely zero difference to careless people who don't know what they're doing, and it makes a huge difference for the 0.0001% people who cares.

I understand it can be counter-intuitive to care for the 0.0001%. But based on years of experience, it works great.

Also, when their house of pip cards finally blows up and they call you for help, YOU can see those warnings.

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 23:37 UTC (Thu) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> Also, when their house of pip cards finally blows up and they call you for help, YOU can see those warnings.

That was most of my last job.

No thank you.

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 23, 2025 8:16 UTC (Fri) by taladar (subscriber, #68407) [Link]

You might not like the job in general but it certainly doesn't get any easier if you first have to talk them through sending you some obscure log file and then interpret the very same warnings they could have sent you more easily if they were just shown to them.

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 27, 2025 10:29 UTC (Tue) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

Since with python is impossible to distribute an application, it's normal that applications tell users to use pip install to obtain them.

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 13:54 UTC (Thu) by zahlman (guest, #175387) [Link] (1 responses)

The warnings would mostly be shown to people who didn't necessarily even *expect that a build would take place*. Pip doesn't warn in advance that it's going to install from an sdist, because it doesn't know in advance that it might have to (in order to satisfy dependency version constraints).

You may also be interested in https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/9140 .

Hidden build warnings?

Posted May 22, 2025 20:01 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> The warnings would mostly be shown to people who didn't necessarily even *expect that a build would take place*.

Darn.

I think these build warnings should still be shown. In fact, pip should not even try to hide the difference between building something and not building anything; why would it do that? User interface always matters but "pip install" is not something "consumers" are expected to use, it's not an iPhone that should pretend that everything is fine when some glitch happens.

Also, it's incredibly hard to deprecate anything. A very reasonable amount of "spamming" end-users can only help.

Googling error messages and warnings is the most useful ever, everyone does it all the time. Don't prevent that.

Just stop hiding stuff already. Ignoring logs is easy, everyone does it ALL THE TIME. Digging out useful warnings buried in obscure log files with unknown names or behind obscure --debug-whatever option is the most time-consuming and horrific user experience ever.

> You may also be interested in https://github.com/pypa/pip/issues/9140 .

I'm not interested because I wrote "dear Lazyweb" :-D
Also, Python packaging looks like something where you can too easily lose... mental health points. A bit disappointed for a scripted language but what do I know (not much).

OK, I read the description of 9140 and I think I agree with it. I upvoted it.