Slightly OT, one more resignation from one more project caused by that LKML thread

Posted Feb 18, 2025 10:31 UTC (Tue) by Phantom_Hoover (subscriber, #167627)
In reply to: Slightly OT, one more resignation from one more project caused by that LKML thread by mathstuf
Parent article: New leadership for Asahi Linux

There’s a really basic reading comprehension problem here: T’so’s use of the phrase to express the role of a Linux kernel maintainer *does not mean he thinks it applies to the role of police in society*. It tells you literally nothing about his opinion on policing policy! If I tell you I’m a crusader for memory-safe code in the kernel it does not mean I endorse religious war in the Middle East. If I tell you I have a five year plan for Rust in Linux, I am not calling for liquidation of the kulaks. When Ted says kernel maintainers are the thin blue line between the kernel and chaos it does not mean he thinks Blue Lives Matter.

This obsession with language games, this belief that you not only have to have the correct politics but you have to express it in exactly the right way in all avenues of your life lest you be called out by someone purity policing, is an absolutely toxic dead end. You will lose more people in the long run to the alienation and dysfunction that comes with trying to enforce it than you will keep by pandering to those who demand it.

Slightly OT, one more resignation from one more project caused by that LKML thread

Posted Feb 18, 2025 11:24 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (4 responses)

> This obsession with language games, this belief that you not only have to have the correct politics but you have to express it in exactly the right way in all avenues of your life lest you be called out by someone purity policing, is an absolutely toxic dead end. You will lose more people in the long run to the alienation and dysfunction that comes with trying to enforce it than you will keep by pandering to those who demand it.

I would agree if it were not for the existence of "dog whistles". Everyone can say "but it wasn't meant that way!", but when, e.g., US militia movements see some "innocent phrase" as enablement, you might want to consider the additional ramifications of using such words carelessly. I don't know if tytso means it in that way, but it is not, IMO, a phrase to be tossed around carelessly.

Slightly OT, one more resignation from one more project caused by that LKML thread

Posted Feb 18, 2025 11:57 UTC (Tue) by Phantom_Hoover (subscriber, #167627) [Link] (3 responses)

You’ve acknowledged that you’d never heard the phrase before 2019, so it comes across as rather arrogant to lecture those of us who had about its role as a fundamentally harmful ‘dog whistle’ for the far right. The whole concept of ‘dog whistles’ starts out with a valid observation and immediately becomes a disaster when over-applied, creating a paranoid and inquisitorial atmosphere where everyone’s under constant suspicion of being a fascist. And the actual fascists know that, and delight in being able to sow paranoia among liberals by flaunting ubiquitous phrases and symbols at random! Better to tune out the noise altogether.

Slightly OT, one more resignation from one more project caused by that LKML thread

Posted Feb 18, 2025 12:15 UTC (Tue) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link] (2 responses)

I added clarification of what the US meaning of "thin blue line" means to me (an American) to someone who has never heard of it before. I'm not here to tell you that "you can't use it", I'm here to say that it has meanings in the US that one might not want to convey. One can continue to use it however they feel (freedom of speech is a thing after all), but continued usage of it in contexts where it can be problematic without further clarification of actual intent may bring consideration from others about future interactions (one is not free of consequences of exercising their freedom of speech).

Anyways, we're far afield of LWN topics. I'll stop here at least.

Slightly OT, one more resignation from one more project caused by that LKML thread

Posted Feb 18, 2025 12:25 UTC (Tue) by Phantom_Hoover (subscriber, #167627) [Link] (1 responses)

> one is not free of consequences of exercising their freedom of speech

Yes — for instance, if you exercise your freedom of speech to create a purity culture where everyone needs to constantly signal their adherence to the Right Politics, the consequence might be alienating everyone outside of a small elite constituency, and a bunch of absolute maniacs might win power and start trashing your country. Just hypothetically, of course. I’m probably worrying about nothing.

Slightly OT, one more resignation from one more project caused by that LKML thread

Posted Feb 18, 2025 13:27 UTC (Tue) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

As mathstuf recognized, this thread has gone far afield. I had hoped that comment would stop the thread there, but alas. We've gone way off topic, please end the thread here - and elsewhere.

Reading comprehension is a biggie

Posted Feb 18, 2025 12:54 UTC (Tue) by sdalley (subscriber, #18550) [Link]

Well said!

The fact is, one simply cannot simply pick apart the expressions people (e.g. kernel maintainers) use, as if one were deciphering some odd C preprocessor macro, and pronounce "that clearly means they're anti-Rust" or something. English isn't like that; it has context and "global state" all over the place!

English (and other) language comprehension requires:
* reading the full context,
* putting yourself in the shoes of the writer. What might their general circumstances be? What do they probably know that you don't? They clearly have a reason for saying what they do.
* Not making emotional assumptions about what they *might* mean
* What is their overall point?
* When in doubt, assume good faith.

Re-reading (for example) the whole of Ted's email https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit... in that light, one realizes there's no reason to be contentious.