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Posted Feb 14, 2025 13:19 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46)
In reply to: Big picture by dralley
Parent article: New leadership for Asahi Linux

> The thing is, on a broader level marcan is still entirely correct that remaining insular and refusing to cooperate with new people is just going to result in a death spiral. The kernel needs a pipeline of new dedicated long term contributors to survive, but the culture and the process seems to do a good job of scaring them away or burning them out.

I've brought this up before here.

In nearly every profession or field of study, the expectation is that the new folks must learn and understand the whats, hows, and (most importantly) whys of the way things are being done.

Some professions require literally a decade (or more) of study and apprenticeship. Others may have harsh and gruelling training regimes -- and these traits (and the emergent cultures) are known in advance by those considering these professions.

"But it's too haaaaaard" simply does not fly. Do you want excellence, or not?

It turns out that folks are not actually interchangeable, lacking the physicality, skills and/or temperament to succeed. Not everyone has what it takes be a doctor or pilot. Not everyone is going to keep up with one the most successful (and important, and performance-critical) distributed software engineering efforts of all time.

And that's okay.

(BTW, this isn't to say that improvements aren't possible -- just that they happen slowly and incrementally, unless forced by a major externality. But "bend over backwards to accomodate the new folks" is rarely a good reason.)


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Posted Feb 14, 2025 13:57 UTC (Fri) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link] (1 responses)

> Some professions require literally a decade (or more) of study and apprenticeship. Others may have harsh and gruelling training regimes -- and these traits (and the emergent cultures) are known in advance by those considering these professions.

We used to also regularly beat children with the idea it would help them grow up into better adults/build character/that kind of thing. That idea is considered ridiculous these days, but I'm sure many people still believe it.

Sure, training for a profession doesn't have to be easy, but it also doesn't have to be harder than necessary.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 15:20 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> Sure, training for a profession doesn't have to be easy, but it also doesn't have to be harder than necessary.

And as someone with medical qualifications (no I am not medically qualified, nor trained), it also should not involve filling trainees with propaganda that bears little relationship to reality. All this training can seriously hinder the spread of good practice.

Take it from someone who has been at the wrong end of arrogant doctors, doctors who are well meaning but ignorant, doctors who can't do a good job because they can't communicate ... and all of whom are people who would almost certainly be horrified if they realised the harm they'd done.

And most of it is down the Religious Dogma (or Politics - equally as bad) instilled in professions with long apprenticeships. But we see that everywhere in life, the powerful want to hang on to power.

Cheers,
Wol

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 14:08 UTC (Fri) by dralley (subscriber, #143766) [Link] (14 responses)

> In nearly every profession or field of study, the expectation is that the new folks must learn and understand the whats, hows, and (most importantly) whys of the way things are being done.

> Some professions require literally a decade (or more) of study and apprenticeship. Others may have harsh and gruelling training regimes -- and these traits (and the emergent cultures) are known in advance by those considering these professions.

In nearly every profession or field or study, there is a reasonablely large body of "documentation" about how and why things work the way they work, it's not all kept as oral history dictated by the elites. Or else, those elites at least regularly undertake some form of mentorship or "advisor" relationship to help the next generation.

As was discovered last summer, even being asked to document or explain subtle details of the existing behavior was apparently too much for some maintainers, even though some of those maintainers couldn't even agree with each other about those same subtle details. Some people seem like they just want to be left alone in their sandbox and never asked to explain anything by anyone "beneath" them.

Those kinds of people certainly exist in all fields, but nobody likes working with them very much.

By the way, none of this should be "bending over backwards". The lack of documentation​ on API semantics is an actual problem with practical consequences.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 14:40 UTC (Fri) by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296) [Link] (10 responses)

Ask NASA why they don't just build more Saturn Vs.

And they document more than anyone.

These problems are not unique to our profession.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 14:48 UTC (Fri) by dralley (subscriber, #143766) [Link] (2 responses)

Of course not, I don't claim that the problem is unique to programming nor the kernel nor that documentation would be sufficient by itself.

Just that having low-bus-factor elites that don't document things *and* won't help mentor new developers / maintainers is kind of a problem for the long-term health of any project. Responding with "RTFM" (while having a manual that actually answered the most basic questions one could have) would be an improvement on the status quo in some cases.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 14:52 UTC (Fri) by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296) [Link] (1 responses)

> Just that having low-bus-factor elites that don't document things *and* won't help mentor new developers / maintainers is kind of a problem for the long-term health of any project. Responding with "RTFM" (while having a manual that actually answered the most basic questions one could have) would be an improvement on the status quo in some cases.

Oh, that I'd agree with.

I spend most of my time available on IRC and I actively tell new people working on the code "ask me if you're blocked on something, it's my job to get you unblocked". There does have to be a way for new people to get involved and learn.

And maintainers need mentorship, too...

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 16:50 UTC (Fri) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link]

'I actively tell new people working on the code "ask me if you're blocked on something, it's my job to get you unblocked".'

That is the essence of good engineering management. I laud you for recognizing it and practicing it.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 16:02 UTC (Fri) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (1 responses)

> Ask NASA why they don't just build more Saturn Vs.

Probably because it doesn't provide the capabilities that anyone has wanted since the 1970s (it's no good for launching satellites or reaching the ISS or Mars), and it cost >10x more to build than a modern rocket using modern tools and materials, and its safety was much lower than would be acceptable nowadays.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 16:52 UTC (Fri) by branden (guest, #7029) [Link]

"...and its safety was much lower than would be acceptable nowadays."

Vegas is accepting wagers on how well this comment ages.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 20:39 UTC (Fri) by ggreen199 (subscriber, #53396) [Link] (4 responses)

One of my first supervisors worked at Boeing on the design of the first stage of Saturn V. Near the end of his time in the space division, he found out that the 2 remaining sets of design documents for the stage were to be thrown out. He took it upon himself to take 1 set home and store it in his garage. Many years later in the 90's, he got a frantic call from a higher up asking if it was true he had the __only__ remaining set of the design docs stored somewhere. I assume this was in the preliminary stages of designing the SLS or predecessors. He said yes, and they were ecstatic and retrieved the documents from him.

Would I be surprised, if after they used the documents for whatever reason they wanted them, they threw them out again? No, I would not be surprised. One constant I have learned from a long career, is that long term planning or retention does not seem to be a concern of any organization I have been associated with.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 22:23 UTC (Fri) by excors (subscriber, #95769) [Link] (1 responses)

Apparently they didn't keep all the documentation, but they also didn't ignore long term planning - there were active efforts to preserve knowledge for components they expected to be useful in the future:

> The longstanding story that NASA lost or destroyed the Saturn 5 plans quickly falls to pieces when one learns about the F-1 Production Knowledge Retention Program. This was a project at Rocketdyne, the company that built the F-1 engine, to preserve as much technical documentation and knowledge about the engine as was possible. According to an inventory of records, this produced twenty volumes of material on topics such as the engine’s injector ring set, valves, engine assembly, and checkout and thermal insulation and electrical cables, among others.
>
> But the project went beyond simply preserving documentation. Rocketdyne actually sought to preserve the knowledge inside the heads of the people who designed and manufactured the engines. They conducted tape-recorded interviews with them, asking about parts that were difficult to produce and manufacturing tricks that they had learned in the process of building multiple engines.
(https://www.thespacereview.com/article/588/1)

Engines are probably the most complex part of a rocket, and they can often be reused in new rocket designs, so they're worth preserving. A lot of the rest of a rocket probably isn't worth it; the original blueprints depend on 1960s components that are no longer available, they use 1960s materials that are inferior to modern ones, the tooling is too bulky to store unused for decades, the launch pads and assembly buildings have been repurposed, etc, and most parts aren't that hard to design anyway (compared to engines), so even if you had perfect documentation it would probably be cheaper to redesign the rocket from scratch.

So I think the reason they didn't keep perfect documentation is because they knew it wasn't going to be needed, not because their engineers just didn't want to bother writing it down.

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Posted Feb 15, 2025 22:14 UTC (Sat) by ggreen199 (subscriber, #53396) [Link]

Sure, but the engines were not a Boeing product, so doesn't apply to what I said. I was speaking of the Saturn V first stage. My comment about lack of planning and retention is not just based on the story of the 1st stage design, but on many, many other examples I witnessed in a long career.

While materials and tooling do change, loading, dynamic response to flight regimes, etc are of course relevant. There are many more points to a design than the those two I cited also.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 22:24 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> Would I be surprised, if after they used the documents for whatever reason they wanted them, they threw them out again? No, I would not be surprised. One constant I have learned from a long career, is that long term planning or retention does not seem to be a concern of any organization I have been associated with.

In my experience, the opposite of "retention" is deliberately practiced, with documentation being automatically shredded as a matter of routine, solely because doing so means you can't ever be accused of willfully destroying evidence in hypothetical future lawsuits.

This pathology is combined with a propensity to cull experienced technical staff, outsource work, and never promote from within (the excuses invariably distill down to "too expensive") to produce what is effectively a sort of institutional anti-memory.

(...I've seen this occur while a product is still being actively produced and sold, in businesses with product support cycles that are measured in decades.)

tl;dr: "Retention" has guaranteed costs, with completely unquantifiable benefits in at some point in the distant future. (where "distant" is anything beyond the current fiscal year)

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Posted Feb 16, 2025 22:13 UTC (Sun) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> (where "distant" is anything beyond the current fiscal year)

Pssh. We're reliant on the *quarterly* reports these days.

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Posted Feb 15, 2025 16:02 UTC (Sat) by hallyn (subscriber, #22558) [Link] (2 responses)

Sorry, what was discovered last summer? Link would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

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Posted Feb 15, 2025 16:59 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

That was that explosion where the Rust people asked for documentation for a C API. Because as far as they could tell, even other C consumers of the API couldn't agree on how it was supposed to be used.

Cheers,
Wol

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Posted Feb 16, 2025 22:32 UTC (Sun) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 21:35 UTC (Fri) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link] (2 responses)

> In nearly every profession or field of study, the expectation is that the new folks must learn and understand the whats, hows, and (most importantly) whys of the way things are being done.

You make a good point.

But in nearly every profession or field of study, there is also an expectation of continuing education --- that old folks must continue to learn and understand new ways of doing things. This is more true the more tech-adjacent the field.

Yet we see many examples of kernel maintainers who explicitly deny being subject to that expectation. For them, "but it's too haaaaaard" DOES fly.

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Posted Feb 14, 2025 22:40 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link] (1 responses)

> But in nearly every profession or field of study, there is also an expectation of continuing education --- that old folks must continue to learn and understand new ways of doing things. This is more true the more tech-adjacent the field.

Sure. But it's a more general requirement ("X hours of continuing education a year") rather than "you will all learn and immediately adopt/incorporate THIS thing, or else you're out." Even in highly tech-adjacent (and/or highly regulated) fields.

> Yet we see many examples of kernel maintainers who explicitly deny being subject to that expectation. For them, "but it's too haaaaaard" DOES fly.

Is R4L an officially-blessed mainline feature? Or is it still considered an experiment?

"Let other folks who care undertake and maintain this experiment, I'm already working more than full time" is a perfectly rational attitude to take. (and how most Linux features have been, and still are, developed) Given the amount of technical churn that's already taken place, it's hard to argue that it's not a reasonably justifiable position.

Is Linux a C project? Is Linux a Rust project only if you have certian hardware or want specific features? Or is Linux a Rust project that consists mostly of (purely legacy) C? One way or another, it's well past the point where Torvalds needs to make a decision.

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Posted Feb 15, 2025 3:35 UTC (Sat) by dralley (subscriber, #143766) [Link]

> Is R4L an officially-blessed mainline feature? Or is it still considered an experiment?

It's an officially blessed experiment, although at this point it's not much of an "experiment" anymore and it would be pretty surprising to see it completely rolled back.

The bigger question is whether it remains allowed for drivers only as it is currently, or if it is eventually allowed into the core kernel.

> "Let other folks who care undertake and maintain this experiment, I'm already working more than full time" is a perfectly rational attitude to take. (and how most Linux features have been, and still are, developed) Given the amount of technical churn that's already taken place, it's hard to argue that it's not a reasonably justifiable position.

That would be a very justifiable position, but it's not Christoph's position. Christoph's position is substantially less justifiable.


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