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Posted Feb 14, 2025 12:40 UTC (Fri) by dralley (subscriber, #143766)In reply to: Big picture by Phantom_Hoover
Parent article: New leadership for Asahi Linux
The thing is, on a broader level marcan is still entirely correct that remaining insular and refusing to cooperate with new people is just going to result in a death spiral. The kernel needs a pipeline of new dedicated long term contributors to survive, but the culture and the process seems to do a good job of scaring them away or burning them out.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 13:19 UTC (Fri)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (20 responses)
I've brought this up before here.
In nearly every profession or field of study, the expectation is that the new folks must learn and understand the whats, hows, and (most importantly) whys of the way things are being done.
Some professions require literally a decade (or more) of study and apprenticeship. Others may have harsh and gruelling training regimes -- and these traits (and the emergent cultures) are known in advance by those considering these professions.
"But it's too haaaaaard" simply does not fly. Do you want excellence, or not?
It turns out that folks are not actually interchangeable, lacking the physicality, skills and/or temperament to succeed. Not everyone has what it takes be a doctor or pilot. Not everyone is going to keep up with one the most successful (and important, and performance-critical) distributed software engineering efforts of all time.
And that's okay.
(BTW, this isn't to say that improvements aren't possible -- just that they happen slowly and incrementally, unless forced by a major externality. But "bend over backwards to accomodate the new folks" is rarely a good reason.)
Posted Feb 14, 2025 13:57 UTC (Fri)
by kleptog (subscriber, #1183)
[Link] (1 responses)
We used to also regularly beat children with the idea it would help them grow up into better adults/build character/that kind of thing. That idea is considered ridiculous these days, but I'm sure many people still believe it.
Sure, training for a profession doesn't have to be easy, but it also doesn't have to be harder than necessary.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 15:20 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
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And as someone with medical qualifications (no I am not medically qualified, nor trained), it also should not involve filling trainees with propaganda that bears little relationship to reality. All this training can seriously hinder the spread of good practice.
Take it from someone who has been at the wrong end of arrogant doctors, doctors who are well meaning but ignorant, doctors who can't do a good job because they can't communicate ... and all of whom are people who would almost certainly be horrified if they realised the harm they'd done.
And most of it is down the Religious Dogma (or Politics - equally as bad) instilled in professions with long apprenticeships. But we see that everywhere in life, the powerful want to hang on to power.
Cheers,
Posted Feb 14, 2025 14:08 UTC (Fri)
by dralley (subscriber, #143766)
[Link] (14 responses)
> Some professions require literally a decade (or more) of study and apprenticeship. Others may have harsh and gruelling training regimes -- and these traits (and the emergent cultures) are known in advance by those considering these professions.
In nearly every profession or field or study, there is a reasonablely large body of "documentation" about how and why things work the way they work, it's not all kept as oral history dictated by the elites. Or else, those elites at least regularly undertake some form of mentorship or "advisor" relationship to help the next generation.
As was discovered last summer, even being asked to document or explain subtle details of the existing behavior was apparently too much for some maintainers, even though some of those maintainers couldn't even agree with each other about those same subtle details. Some people seem like they just want to be left alone in their sandbox and never asked to explain anything by anyone "beneath" them.
Those kinds of people certainly exist in all fields, but nobody likes working with them very much.
By the way, none of this should be "bending over backwards". The lack of documentation on API semantics is an actual problem with practical consequences.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 14:40 UTC (Fri)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (10 responses)
And they document more than anyone.
These problems are not unique to our profession.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 14:48 UTC (Fri)
by dralley (subscriber, #143766)
[Link] (2 responses)
Just that having low-bus-factor elites that don't document things *and* won't help mentor new developers / maintainers is kind of a problem for the long-term health of any project. Responding with "RTFM" (while having a manual that actually answered the most basic questions one could have) would be an improvement on the status quo in some cases.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 14:52 UTC (Fri)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (1 responses)
Oh, that I'd agree with.
I spend most of my time available on IRC and I actively tell new people working on the code "ask me if you're blocked on something, it's my job to get you unblocked". There does have to be a way for new people to get involved and learn.
And maintainers need mentorship, too...
Posted Feb 14, 2025 16:50 UTC (Fri)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link]
That is the essence of good engineering management. I laud you for recognizing it and practicing it.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 16:02 UTC (Fri)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link] (1 responses)
Probably because it doesn't provide the capabilities that anyone has wanted since the 1970s (it's no good for launching satellites or reaching the ISS or Mars), and it cost >10x more to build than a modern rocket using modern tools and materials, and its safety was much lower than would be acceptable nowadays.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 16:52 UTC (Fri)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link]
Vegas is accepting wagers on how well this comment ages.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 20:39 UTC (Fri)
by ggreen199 (subscriber, #53396)
[Link] (4 responses)
Would I be surprised, if after they used the documents for whatever reason they wanted them, they threw them out again? No, I would not be surprised. One constant I have learned from a long career, is that long term planning or retention does not seem to be a concern of any organization I have been associated with.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 22:23 UTC (Fri)
by excors (subscriber, #95769)
[Link] (1 responses)
> The longstanding story that NASA lost or destroyed the Saturn 5 plans quickly falls to pieces when one learns about the F-1 Production Knowledge Retention Program. This was a project at Rocketdyne, the company that built the F-1 engine, to preserve as much technical documentation and knowledge about the engine as was possible. According to an inventory of records, this produced twenty volumes of material on topics such as the engine’s injector ring set, valves, engine assembly, and checkout and thermal insulation and electrical cables, among others.
Engines are probably the most complex part of a rocket, and they can often be reused in new rocket designs, so they're worth preserving. A lot of the rest of a rocket probably isn't worth it; the original blueprints depend on 1960s components that are no longer available, they use 1960s materials that are inferior to modern ones, the tooling is too bulky to store unused for decades, the launch pads and assembly buildings have been repurposed, etc, and most parts aren't that hard to design anyway (compared to engines), so even if you had perfect documentation it would probably be cheaper to redesign the rocket from scratch.
So I think the reason they didn't keep perfect documentation is because they knew it wasn't going to be needed, not because their engineers just didn't want to bother writing it down.
Posted Feb 15, 2025 22:14 UTC (Sat)
by ggreen199 (subscriber, #53396)
[Link]
While materials and tooling do change, loading, dynamic response to flight regimes, etc are of course relevant. There are many more points to a design than the those two I cited also.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 22:24 UTC (Fri)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (1 responses)
In my experience, the opposite of "retention" is deliberately practiced, with documentation being automatically shredded as a matter of routine, solely because doing so means you can't ever be accused of willfully destroying evidence in hypothetical future lawsuits.
This pathology is combined with a propensity to cull experienced technical staff, outsource work, and never promote from within (the excuses invariably distill down to "too expensive") to produce what is effectively a sort of institutional anti-memory.
(...I've seen this occur while a product is still being actively produced and sold, in businesses with product support cycles that are measured in decades.)
tl;dr: "Retention" has guaranteed costs, with completely unquantifiable benefits in at some point in the distant future. (where "distant" is anything beyond the current fiscal year)
Posted Feb 16, 2025 22:13 UTC (Sun)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link]
Pssh. We're reliant on the *quarterly* reports these days.
Posted Feb 15, 2025 16:02 UTC (Sat)
by hallyn (subscriber, #22558)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Feb 15, 2025 16:59 UTC (Sat)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link]
Cheers,
Posted Feb 16, 2025 22:32 UTC (Sun)
by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389)
[Link]
Posted Feb 14, 2025 21:35 UTC (Fri)
by roc (subscriber, #30627)
[Link] (2 responses)
You make a good point.
But in nearly every profession or field of study, there is also an expectation of continuing education --- that old folks must continue to learn and understand new ways of doing things. This is more true the more tech-adjacent the field.
Yet we see many examples of kernel maintainers who explicitly deny being subject to that expectation. For them, "but it's too haaaaaard" DOES fly.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 22:40 UTC (Fri)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (1 responses)
Sure. But it's a more general requirement ("X hours of continuing education a year") rather than "you will all learn and immediately adopt/incorporate THIS thing, or else you're out." Even in highly tech-adjacent (and/or highly regulated) fields.
> Yet we see many examples of kernel maintainers who explicitly deny being subject to that expectation. For them, "but it's too haaaaaard" DOES fly.
Is R4L an officially-blessed mainline feature? Or is it still considered an experiment?
"Let other folks who care undertake and maintain this experiment, I'm already working more than full time" is a perfectly rational attitude to take. (and how most Linux features have been, and still are, developed) Given the amount of technical churn that's already taken place, it's hard to argue that it's not a reasonably justifiable position.
Is Linux a C project? Is Linux a Rust project only if you have certian hardware or want specific features? Or is Linux a Rust project that consists mostly of (purely legacy) C? One way or another, it's well past the point where Torvalds needs to make a decision.
Posted Feb 15, 2025 3:35 UTC (Sat)
by dralley (subscriber, #143766)
[Link]
It's an officially blessed experiment, although at this point it's not much of an "experiment" anymore and it would be pretty surprising to see it completely rolled back.
The bigger question is whether it remains allowed for drivers only as it is currently, or if it is eventually allowed into the core kernel.
> "Let other folks who care undertake and maintain this experiment, I'm already working more than full time" is a perfectly rational attitude to take. (and how most Linux features have been, and still are, developed) Given the amount of technical churn that's already taken place, it's hard to argue that it's not a reasonably justifiable position.
That would be a very justifiable position, but it's not Christoph's position. Christoph's position is substantially less justifiable.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 13:50 UTC (Fri)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link] (3 responses)
Yeah, this is a really important point.
We've got a real problem with overprofessionalism (c.f. elite overproduction in society at large); this where some of my beef with the CoC and the committee's approach comes from.
It seems they want the kernel to be an emotionally safer place for maintainers, but there's a cost. Where do new engineers come from, the ones who really drive things decodes down the road?
They start out as engaged, hot headed young people who are interested in technology, of course. Seeing comments on Phoronix and elsewhere gives me fond memories of where I was 30 years ago, and I find more and more that there's a lot to be had in those interections if you show a bit of patience and empathy.
Along with Ted's "thin blue line" mentality, I see a lot of ways in which the kernel community is becoming more insular and closed off when we need to be engaging with the outside world.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 16:25 UTC (Fri)
by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454)
[Link] (1 responses)
Superheroes can afford to stick to my way or the highway. Normal human beings can not.
Posted Feb 14, 2025 17:01 UTC (Fri)
by koverstreet (✭ supporter ✭, #4296)
[Link]
Posted Feb 14, 2025 17:53 UTC (Fri)
by branden (guest, #7029)
[Link]
"We've got a real problem with overprofessionalism (c.f. elite overproduction in society at large); this where some of my beef with the CoC and the committee's approach comes from."
I don't think you're wrong, but I think your statement is easily misread. Let me attempt my own interpretation of it, with which you will not necessarily agree.
Our society (I'll speak here mainly of the U.S.--problems are similar though less extreme elsewhere) overproduces people credentialed for management. Unlike many, I don't claim that our ratios of engineering to social science to management to liberal arts graduates are out of whack, for the simple reason that in much U.S. employment, a bachelor's degree in _any discipline of study_ is regarded as a qualifying criterion for a management role--and often does most of the lifting of "sufficiency" for such a position.
And the reason people seek out these management roles after graduating college is that in many or most sectors, they're the only ones that pay a true living wage or offer a plausible path to one. Everybody else is tied to the federal minimum wage (or compensated by some meager increment above it), which hasn't approached a living wage in the memory of most of the workforce.
Understandably, every kid's parents push hard to get as many of their offspring as possible into the college prep/future management track, even if they have no temperament for or interest in knowledge production via scholarly methods (the reason universities exist). We end up with more "managers" than we need, but there's a tacit agreement in business leadership not to proletarianize the bulk of them (say, by sectors of the economy proclaiming, "okay, that's enough, no first-line managers without master's degrees"), because that risks upsetting the political equilibrium upon which the existing systems of rent extraction depend. The end result is a sloshy mass of managers without much real managing to do, so they become mandarins or commissars, the latter being a feature of the Soviet system but, being too good an idea to let die with communism, now constitute a means of achieving government "efficiency".
The result is that we have a lot of superfluous people applying their management training--or what passed for it--in places and to situations where worker self-management was adequate, or should have been permitted to develop organically, from the bottom up rather than top down. We see repeated instances of two kinds of problem. (A) heavy-handed CoC enforcers, often drafted from outside the communities they serve--because they're "professionals"--decreeing expulsions of significant (but not top-tier) contributors and drawing backlash, not because there wasn't a problem, but because the instincts of that community respond appropriately to sledgehammer tactics applied by people in mallet-shaped who have no other function and can contribute nothing else. And (B) an elite class of special contributors against whom the sledgehammer will never be swung no matter what. Sure, we can talk them into going to "sensitivity training" once, maybe. After that they'll rediscovered their indispensability, knowing just as do their employers that they can find greener pa$ture$ elsewhere. Given the choice to retain between one of marquee people and a faceless functionary, the outcome is obvious. That dynamic creates intense competition for one of those coveted untouchable spots, which in turn promotes bunker mentalities, rivalries, territoriality, and personal attachment to work product (like kernel subsystems) with which one is publicly associated in the minds of the community.
In summary, many projects seem to have drifted into a place where all of an immature developer's worst inclinations are seen to be indulged--if you're one of the "right" developers. A project survives and develops successfully in spite of these perverse incentives, not because of them. It's good that we have so many basically honorable and decent people attached to FLOSS projects, and a deep shame that the conventional wisdom is that they need to be managed "better" with approaches that will actively harm them.
Management is often a necessary function. But as with many products and services, buying from the seller employing the highest-pressure tactics or who pushes the least rational arguments ("everybody else is doing it!"), often leaves one underwhelmed and experiencing remorse. (But we can talk you out of saying so. C'mon, you can't just be disparaging managers like that. Do you want people to think you're a Marxist?)
I'll leave you with a lengthy quote from a historian friend of mine that helps show how we got here.
"Whereas in previous models of corporate governance, large shareholders (often from founding families like Ford) appointed fellow members of the owner class, the old school bourgeoisie/owner class, to internal office within these companies. In other words, one amassed stock (by inheritance or profit in another company) and then ascended to leadership. But the commissar class offered a concurrent competing model whereby one was appointed to leadership by other members of this class who managed funds and held voting proxies and, from that position, compensated oneself with shares and stock options.
"This ascendant class based these appointments on an expanding academic discipline, “business administration,” the skill at and understanding of the management of people based on the ability to analyze and manipulate mass psychology through statistical analysis. Whether this actually made any company more efficient is entirely debatable. The point is that the commissar class could justify its amplification of its own power by using a meritocratic discourse of expertise, not in what the company made or did but in psychological manipulation. People who ran companies, according to the logic of the commissars, didn’t run them because they were rich or because they understood the industry and had risen through its ranks but because they were masters of an arcane science McNamara and his ilk had helped to create.
"It was therefore perfectly logical that the commissars would endow business schools with funds to make more commissars. And as the austerity programs the commissars championed went into effect, these schools came to exercise an outside influence on university cultures as they expanded financially while the rest of the universities contracted. Logically, of course, the way to save other parts of the universities was to make them more closely resemble the business schools that produced the commissars or, conversely, to reassure the commissars by withdrawing into various forms of immaterialism so as not to produce graduates who might make competing meritocratic claims on the basis of specific, disciplinary knowledge as opposed to the meta-science of management.
In other words, the postmodern turn and the rise of the business school were of a piece with one another, both driven by austerity, the ascendance of the commissars, Soviet subversion and immaterialism. By immaterialism, I mean that management was increasingly a science of psychological analysis and manipulation while humanities and social science scholarship relocated from describing the physical world to describing people’s thoughts about that world. The idea that reality is a social construction is one equally championed by the business schools and postmodernists who seized control of humanities and social science scholarship.
"These processes were already underway when the Eastern European dictatorships that had helped create them collapsed one after another. But without the worry of the Soviet Bloc as competition and with the removal of any serious political alternative, commissar-driven austerity could accelerate, as it rapidly did in the 1990s, raising tuition fees, ensuring that those working class people who did rise through the university system would be heavily indebted and thereby more controllable should they attempt to join this ascendant class.
I concede that this sort of analysis wanders far from LWN's editorial concerns. I realize that we're all here to hack, not to understand why firms like Intel or trade associations like the Linux Foundation operate the way they do.
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Wol
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"...and its safety was much lower than would be acceptable nowadays."
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>
> But the project went beyond simply preserving documentation. Rocketdyne actually sought to preserve the knowledge inside the heads of the people who designed and manufactured the engines. They conducted tape-recorded interviews with them, asking about parts that were difficult to produce and manufacturing tricks that they had learned in the process of building multiple engines.
(https://www.thespacereview.com/article/588/1)
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Wol
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Permit me to attempt to rise to the challenge of the "Big picture" subject. The reader may want to brew a coffee for this one. (Or skip it.)
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