Misleading
Misleading
Posted Jan 10, 2025 3:48 UTC (Fri) by npws (subscriber, #168248)In reply to: Misleading by Wol
Parent article: SFC reports a successful (L)GPL suit in Germany
You can sue for any reason you like, you just might lose. Given that nothing at all regarding the validity of his claims was decided by the court, it comes down to "guy asks for code, guy eventually receives some code" (and according to comments here *still* not even the complete one). Something that hasn't happened many times before.
Posted Jan 10, 2025 3:50 UTC (Fri)
by npws (subscriber, #168248)
[Link] (15 responses)
Posted Jan 10, 2025 11:58 UTC (Fri)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (14 responses)
"Both SFC and Steck remain frustrated that companies like AVM usually ignore user requests under copyleft until a lawsuit is filed. Nevertheless, we are happy to see that the legal process confirmed Steck's rights, and required AVM to pay Steck's legal costs. “I am pleased that this litigation compelled AVM to provide the compilation and reinstallation information in the filings,” Steck said."
Yes it hasn't changed the fact that users always seem to have to go to court. I'm not aware of previous cases that have been won and - in the words of the SFC - "the legal process confirmed Steck's rights".
Cheers,
Posted Jan 12, 2025 2:33 UTC (Sun)
by npws (subscriber, #168248)
[Link] (13 responses)
> Nevertheless, we are happy to see that the legal process confirmed Steck's rights, and required AVM to pay Steck's legal costs.
they say nothing of the sort. AVM had to pay because they have agreed to pay. That's all the court has decided. Why is why I called the statement misleading.
Posted Jan 12, 2025 12:38 UTC (Sun)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (12 responses)
AVM didn't have to agree to pay Steck's costs as part of a settlement. Nevertheless that's what they agreed to do, instead of having the court decide this case on its merits and risking a potentially much more costly loss. (or possibly even a costly *win*)
Even with legal costs factored in, AVM decided it was cheaper to comply with the GPL's requirements than to not comply. That's not nothing, and one would think that this indicates that simply complying up front is even cheaper still, by virtue of preventing further legal costs.
Posted Jan 12, 2025 15:31 UTC (Sun)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (11 responses)
And coupled with the fact the plaintiff was a USER, not a copyright holder, the risks of finding yourself fighting a deep-pocket plaintiff just went through the roof. THIS is the important takeaway - not the "plaintiff sues and gets paid off" which HAS happened many times before. It's the "winning plaintiff is a USER" that is the new and novel feature here ...
Cheers,
Posted Jan 14, 2025 19:19 UTC (Tue)
by tbird20d (subscriber, #1901)
[Link] (10 responses)
If you believe all future plaintiffs are non-adversarial, this can be seen as a positive thing. However, increasing the
Posted Jan 14, 2025 21:51 UTC (Tue)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (8 responses)
The first thing that came to mind is... "Good riddance."
Or, ya know, they could comply with the license of the software they are incorporating into their products?
After all, they expect _their_ product's license terms to be respected. Why should their suppliers be treated any differently?
Posted Jan 22, 2025 20:27 UTC (Wed)
by tbird20d (subscriber, #1901)
[Link] (7 responses)
Increased legal risk will always be a deterrent to more people getting involved or staying involved with OSS.
Posted Jan 22, 2025 21:16 UTC (Wed)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (6 responses)
Uh... please point us at _any_ "bad actor" going after a "well-behaved OSS community member" that is "following the license" (and by that I mean providing the complete corresponding GPL sources to all binaries they ship without having to threaten them with legal action)
> We know that not everyone who wields the legal system is a good faith actor - witness Patrick McHardy.
All of McHardy's shenanigans could have been avoided if the companies he targeted actually followed the plain-language terms of the software they actively incorporated into their products.
(In other words, his targets were _not_ "well-behaved OSS community members...following the license")
> If Google were sued by a bad actor, should they drop Linux from Android, and just replace it with Fuchsia?
...Google is sued every single day by bad actors. What's one more? Or are you saying they should preemptively shut down their business just in case?
Posted Jan 23, 2025 10:46 UTC (Thu)
by Wol (subscriber, #4433)
[Link] (1 responses)
Except this appears to be a case of going after a "good citizen". Someone I define as "a person who treats others with respect and tries to obey the rules". Otherwise you end up with a police state where there are so many rules it's impossible to be an upright law-abiding citizen and everyone is in fear of being arrested and jailed on pretty much any excuse.
We don't know the details, but I get the impression the full source was available, it's just that AVM's tracking systems couldn't retrieve it correctly. Be careful what you wish for - you don't want lawyers with big guns chasing you for a little slip ... (but that's the American way, sadly).
Cheers,
Posted Jan 23, 2025 14:00 UTC (Thu)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link]
....Except they *didn't* obey the rules!
(Note that "the rules" here are the terms of the settlement for their _first_ GPL violation -- ie the one their lawyers explicitly signed off on)
> but I get the impression the full source was available, it's just that AVM's tracking systems couldn't retrieve it correctly.
In other words... they couldn't provide the source code they were supposed to.
> Be careful what you wish for - you don't want lawyers with big guns chasing you for a little slip
I'm sorry, but live by the IP sword, you die by the IP sword. None of these companies would accept "a little slip" if it was _their_ property being misappropriated.
Posted Mar 18, 2025 19:41 UTC (Tue)
by tbird20d (subscriber, #1901)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Mar 19, 2025 10:35 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link] (2 responses)
1. The open facts of the matter are that:
2. Those who say McHardy's intentions were bad or nefarious; that the violators were acting in good faith, and/or made only trivial violations; refuse to give details, never mind evidence. There are just claims to be in the know, or to know people who know, and that the details must be kept hush-hush, behind the scenes, cause... reasons, which we can't tell you.
So we have the basic, sparse facts that are available - which do NOT of themselves justify anything in 2. Indeed, the reverse.
And then we have 2, which we, the unwashed public out there who just read LWN, are meant to just take on authority, and ignore the only facts available in 1. We are meant to just take it for granted that GPL violators - corporates making money importing and selling products with GPL code - are the poor ickle good guys here, and McHardy is the bad guy for enforcing the licence on code he claims to have helped make (I know there are other questions there, but that's a distinct matter, and can be answered, inc. in court).
That appeal to authority, at odds with the (few) available facts, doesn't quite sit right with at least some of us.
Posted Mar 19, 2025 13:04 UTC (Wed)
by pizza (subscriber, #46)
[Link] (1 responses)
It's also hard to garner sympathy for "victims" [1] whose best argument is "we mistakenly signed an agreement we had no hope of complying with because we didn't know how our own business actually operates". (ie "we're too incompetent to act out of malice")
...Because that's about all one can infer from the few available facts.
[1] Who all had full access to competent legal counsel
Posted Mar 19, 2025 13:18 UTC (Wed)
by paulj (subscriber, #341)
[Link]
One of the organisations pushing the devilling of McHardy is the Linux Foundation. A commercial trade organisation representing a number of large commercial corporates, for whom any enforcement of the GPL appears to embarrassing / inconvenient. (Some of those members of the LF are... GPL violators).
Posted Jan 15, 2025 2:04 UTC (Wed)
by bkuhn (subscriber, #58642)
[Link]
tbird20d wrote: “Legal risk”, in this case, of course means the “risk that we might be
required by law to give our customers the same rights that we have under this license.” But that's always been the “legal risk” of redistribution of copylefted software.
Those who want to make proprietary software know where to find non-copyleft
stuff to build on and always have. Those who are willing to treat their customers reasonably
and give them equal rights are welcome and encouraged to use GCC
and Linux. The root cause of for-profit companies changing away from the copylefted software is that they have begun to slowly realize that they can't just get away consequence-free when they ignore their legal requirements anymore — as they often could in the past. It's similar to factories closing when they can't meet the pollution standards: we all are indeed sad that jobs were lost, but that short-term societal pain is worth living through so we get cleaner air and water. The factories could always have invested in cleaner technologies instead of firing people; they just chose to blame their workers and the regulators rather than their own bad behavior. Sadly, I am not surprised that — in both copyleft and environmental policy — wealthy for-profit companies get away with setting the narrative that the regulation is at fault rather than their refusal to invest in following the regulations. They build well-funded trade associations to spin that message for them.
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Wol
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Wol
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Agreed. This is an interesting development. It's also akin to the 3rd party beneficiary legal theory in the Vizio case (which
has yet to be adjudicated in the U.S.).
legal risk and cost of using the GPL can have a deleterious effect on adoption, even by those who are good actors
in the community. Decreasing adoption can have a long-term negative effect. I know of cases where Linux or gcc
was dropped from a product at least partly due to perceived legal risks, and this ups the ante.
Misleading
was dropped from a product at least partly due to perceived legal risks, and this ups the ante.
Misleading
We know that not everyone who wields the legal system is a good faith actor - witness Patrick McHardy.
Do you think everyone who was sued by Patrick McHardy should just drop OSS, and that would be "good riddance"?
If Google were sued by a bad actor, should they drop Linux from Android, and just replace it with Fuchsia?
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Wol
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a) McHardy made settlements with or had sent clear cease-and-desist notices to GPL violators, part of which was to cease their violations or face penalties
b) The violators went on to violate again
c) Thus McHardy went to collect on the penalty clauses of his prior agreement with or warning to said violators
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Also misleading, tbird20
I know of cases where Linux or gcc was dropped from a product at least partly due to perceived legal risks, and this ups the ante.